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  1. #41  
    WM5 is already revamping itself for a second edition, while Palm OS is doing just about nothing. I hate to say it, but WM5 is attempting to move ahead while Palm OS is stagnating.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by tirk View Post


    POS has one issue - HSDPA support (at a time when 3G coverage is non-existent outside major cities). WM has several (harder to use, crappy screen res, forces you to use outlook, etc). So why buy a WM device now because WM may be better sometime in the future?

    POS will be obsolete if mutli-tasking isn't sorted by the time 3G data access is widely available, but guess what - that's the plan!
    Well, if 3G is available where you live, it makes a big difference. I have 3G in my city, so I wouldn't buy a phone without it. I'm amazed by people on this board trying to pretend that 3G coverage doesn't exist because POS can't support it. By my rough calculations, the cities that currently have Cingular UMTS/HSDPA coverage have about 60 million residents combined. That's about 25% of Americans and growing every day as Cingular expands their coverage. The reality is, Cingular is putting up 3G towers almost literally every day, and I bet that within 12-18 months (well within the period that I would think Palm is still expecting this current generation of phones to be seeling well), Cingular will have 3G coverage in most of the country. 3G is ALREADY here, and PalmOS is ALREADY behind.

    Also, POS has the issue of being unable to multitask, so you can't talk and surf, or run multiple programs. That's three problems. One of the three problems with WM you listed is subjective (harder to use), another is debatable whether it is bad (forces you to use outlook), and the third is a legit issue.

    There is a fine line between being a fan of PalmOS and being an apologist.
  3. tirk's Avatar
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    #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by MrDs10e View Post
    Well, if 3G is available where you live, it makes a big difference. I have 3G in my city, so I wouldn't buy a phone without it.
    I do have 3G at home, but that's not where I would want to use it (and anyway data prices in the UK are so high you can't afford to use it). Coverage (say) on a train trip is non-existent (in my experience of using my 3G laptop card).
    One of the three problems with WM you listed is subjective (harder to use)
    Hardly. Has anyone said WM is easier to use than POS on a Treo? If so, I must have missed it.

    Yes, POS has to improve, but that's the plan. WM, though, is not ideal as a phone OS either. If you can live with the multitasking issues in POS, it is by far the better OS for a smart phone.
  4. #44  
    I really don't mind Palm building a low cost, entry level Treo.

    But why only a low cost POS?
    Why is it if one wants to stay w/ POS, do they get burned.

    I prolly will go WM anyway, but why no 750p? Why don't POS users get a 'Power User' Treo?
    It's like they are deliberatly trying to Migrate us to WM.

    And if they successfully convert us to WM, we won't be confined to just Smart Phones built by Palm.
    We can go anywhere the grass is greener. But if they make a Top End, 750p (in addition to the 680) they will be more apt to keep the existing POS 'Power Users' on board.
    Just call me Berd.
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by tirk View Post
    Has anyone said WM is easier to use than POS on a Treo? If so, I must have missed it.
    Has anyone said that it easy to use on a phone? Has anyone said that it is easy to use?

    Quote Originally Posted by tirk View Post
    Yes, POS has to improve, but that's the plan. ..........
    Who says so? I know that Colligan has made ambiguous statements that a ****-eyed optimist might so interpret. However, as is their pattern, Palm has leaked enough to string people along while being very careful not to say anything they can be held to.


    Simple questions for Palm:

    1. Is the 650 the last GSM/POS phone?
    2. Is it the last phone that Palm will sell direct?
    3. Is it the last unlocked phone that Palm will sell?
    4. Will there ever be a UMTS/POS phone?
    5. Will there ever be an unlocked 750?
    6. Is the 700p the last POS phone?


    Yes answers to 1, 2, 3, and 6 and no to 4 and 5 are consistent with the leaks but not with a plan to improve POS. I hope I have it wrong but I doubt it.
    Last edited by whmurray; 09/24/2006 at 11:57 AM.
  6. #46  
    Those are some good questions, and from just a person who too would like to know what is going on, and sometimes gets a bit of extra info, this is what I can say:

    I doubt that the 680 or the 700p are the last PalmOS Treos. If they do well with the 680, one can expect that another refinement would come for the CDMA crowd.

    The OS is not technically Palm's to improve. Many of the issues that all of us have with it lie on Access's side to fix, and Access is busy working on a new OS to try to support one who's license says that multi-tasking cannot be fully utilized.

    Another item of note, Sprint and VZW have been heavy investors in the PalmOS platfom. So much so that I believe that it has been their investments that have both kept Palm alive, but just enough to keep Palm going until the next ajor thing comes.

    IMO as well, if what Orange is doing with ALP proves to be successful, a carrier themed OS if you will, then there might not be much af a need for Palm at all (carriers can buy hardware right from the ODM, as well as the OS and so what really is there left for Palm to bring but a name that is fading fast).

    Just somethoughts from a Treo guy who wants more than 700p, but a truely new Treo that would not only address the shortcomings in network and hardware, but address many issues in usability so that there would be less reliance on 3rd party programs for that kind of functionality.
    MMM | AntoineRJWright.com | BH | Jaiku

    Moved on to Symbian, but still will visit from time to time.
  7. tirk's Avatar
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    #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray View Post
    Is the 650 the last GSM/POS phone?
    Well, duh! This thread is about the 680 GSM/POS phone! Or don't you believe this thread exists either??
  8. #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by tirk View Post
    Well, duh! This thread is about the 680 GSM/POS phone! Or don't you believe this thread exists either??
    I believe that the thread exists; it is the product that I question. As far as I know, Palm has not announced any such phone. Rumors have simply been repeated until they have the illusion of fact. The rumors are not consistent but seem to agree that any such phone will not have UMTS or BT. That would make it a poor man's 650. I already have a 650. I am looking for UMTS/POS.

    It leaves us with the dilemma that the only way to get UMTS is with WM; the only way to get 3G in the US is with CDMA.
    Last edited by whmurray; 09/24/2006 at 01:20 PM.
  9. #49  
    I read it on Engadget that it does have Bluetooth.
    "Had my hands on 750 since last week, beautiful Treo with WM 5.0... but I'd prefer it come with wi-fi.

    Also for 680, it does have bluetooth. I had the 680 for about 3 weeks now, it looks pretty much identical layout/form-factor as to 750, the keyboard feels really nice."

    Al
  10. #51  
    Antoine:

    I think the way you've related the PalmOS to the carriers isn't entirely correct. Shouldn't it be that the carriers invest in Palm hardware, and part of that capital is reinvested into Access? Of course this makes no difference when strictly discussing the smartphone devices, but when you look at Palm on a global level, the carriers are not affecting the OS used in standalone PDA devices. From my understanding you implying that the carriers have direct control over which OS Palm uses, when in fact it is actually Palm's decision. If Palm decides not to shift their OS, they only lose the smartphone market, not the entire PDA market.

    Splitting hairs, I know, but something just didn't seem to click.


  11. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by tirk View Post


    POS has one issue - HSDPA support (at a time when 3G coverage is non-existent outside major cities). WM has several (harder to use, crappy screen res, forces you to use outlook, etc). So why buy a WM device now because WM may be better sometime in the future?

    POS will be obsolete if mutli-tasking isn't sorted by the time 3G data access is widely available, but guess what - that's the plan!
    In the mean time, software developers will be writing apps for WM and not for POS. Eventually you'll go to get software and you'll have a small list of options on POS and a larger list for WM. That's already becoming the case.
    It'll be like that little tiny section in a computer store of "mac" programs where the other 1/2 the store is full of windows programs.
    Apple made a comeback and software support is back for the Mac. Can POS do the same?

    3G non-existent? It's quite existent. Most major cities have it. And many more will in just a few months time.

    Lack of 3G support is not POS's only problem. You really think they're going to invest the resources in to getting the OS to do multitasking. I hope so.

    I should add that over the next year or however it takes for Palm to get 3G working on POS, every day people will be adopting WM for the first time or switching to WM because they want a 3G phone. By the time 3G works on the POS, they'll have lost their market share and few will care.
    If you don't think people will be adopting 3G, then I'll just say that Cingular is replacing 80% of their phones and PDAs with 3G capable devices in the next few months, then they're going to start a huge 3G marketing push.
    Last edited by taylorh; 09/24/2006 at 05:09 PM.
    Treo 750 (AT&T)
    Treo600->Treo650->Cing8525->Blackberry 8700c->Treo750->AT&T Tilt->Treo750->iPhone 3G
  12. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by FrozenCode View Post
    Antoine:

    I think the way you've related the PalmOS to the carriers isn't entirely correct. Shouldn't it be that the carriers invest in Palm hardware, and part of that capital is reinvested into Access? Of course this makes no difference when strictly discussing the smartphone devices, but when you look at Palm on a global level, the carriers are not affecting the OS used in standalone PDA devices. From my understanding you implying that the carriers have direct control over which OS Palm uses, when in fact it is actually Palm's decision. If Palm decides not to shift their OS, they only lose the smartphone market, not the entire PDA market.

    Splitting hairs, I know, but something just didn't seem to click.
    It depends on how easy it is to impliment carrier specific features though. Palm put SprintTV and onDemand in 700p. Also the linking to photo album app to Sprint's ppicture mail service. Those are money revenue for Sprint. I don't know why they can't put SprintTV in 700wx but this to Sprint is a deciding factor in picking the OS.

    From what I heard POS6 Coblat got killed becuase none carrier want it.
  13. #54  
    Ok, I admit I freaked out on the gizmodo report that it didn't have bluetooth.
    Where did that rumor come from? Dunno - maybe that it doesn't have IR and someone was confused?

    Regardless, since it has bluetooth, I'm very interested in this as a replacement for my 650. What will make this a buy/not buy phone for me is if the memory is increased (to the 64 MB) which should alleviate the reset issues and the price point. Price point wouldn't have been such a concern but I'm going to back to school.

    Does anyone know what version of bluetooth and if it will support A2DP (if I have the acronym right)?
    Does anyone know what the memory on this will be?

    Someday I hope to switch to a 3G mulit-tasking smartphone, but I can wait. A more useful 650 is what I need in the short term. If that is the 680 then good.
    _______________________________
    workin' all NOC long
  14. #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by samkim View Post
    Responding to a number of posts...

    I continue seeing posts from Treo users about how dumb Palm is for producing a new phone that is unappealing to them. It would actually be dumb to produce only phones that appeal to current Treo users. Palm's strategy is to create new phones to sell to people other than you.

    As with the 700w, this is about expanding their market. The entire mobile phone market is huge and diverse, and Palm currently sells to a tiny sliver of that population. They like to say that eventually, everyone will want email on their phones.

    The point of the 700w was to appeal to the millions of people who don't want to buy a PalmOS phone, but still like the Treo form factor. And the point of a low-end phone is to appeal to the millions of people who cannot afford a Treo 700, but still like the Treo. Note that a pyramid is larger on the bottom than on the top. It's a smart move.


    While I don't know the composition of the 680, they talked a year ago about producing cheaper phones by using multi-function chips that consume less power. That is, they would replace two or three chips with just one. I assume that they're following through on that approach. They're not calling it a 650 because they're changing the hardware.


    They also talked about how with carrier subsidies, low-end smartphones can eventually be offered free to consumers. Again, I don't know if the 680 achieves that vision, or only goes part way. We'll see.
    Because the number is higher, I think people are expecting it should be an upgrade. That's why 650 owners are disappointed. That's a normal assumption, higher number means upgrade. But as we see with Palm, not necessarily so.

    For instance, the 750 is not necessarily a complete upgrade over the 700wx. A design change, 3G was added, and WM5 was tweaked again; but is that truly a complete upgrade? Or perhaps it also has the higher number because it's GSM. But these so-called "upgrades" are just tweaking and modifying of the same phone IMO.

    I don't think they should even use 680 since it's clearly NOT an upgrade to the 650. They should just keep it the Palm Lowrider or Nitro(this one is cooler) and drop the numbers.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  15. #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by FrozenCode View Post
    Antoine:

    I think the way you've related the PalmOS to the carriers isn't entirely correct. Shouldn't it be that the carriers invest in Palm hardware, and part of that capital is reinvested into Access? Of course this makes no difference when strictly discussing the smartphone devices, but when you look at Palm on a global level, the carriers are not affecting the OS used in standalone PDA devices. From my understanding you implying that the carriers have direct control over which OS Palm uses, when in fact it is actually Palm's decision. If Palm decides not to shift their OS, they only lose the smartphone market, not the entire PDA market.

    Splitting hairs, I know, but something just didn't seem to click.
    Splitting hairs indeed

    I shall say it like this. Palm had Treos with the PalmOS that were selling well, but VZW wanted them with WM because (1)VZW does well with selling MS products to their bulk sellers; and (2) there was demand from the carriers for it. Palm coudl say no, but that meant for them fewer Treo sales (and at the time it was conceivable that PalmOS sales of teh Treo would crest after a few years). So Palm, at the request (I'd say payment, but who knows) of VZW, Palm made it happen.

    If Palm decided not to do so, then they would have lost the market just as you said. That is carrier control if you ask me
    MMM | AntoineRJWright.com | BH | Jaiku

    Moved on to Symbian, but still will visit from time to time.
  16. DHart's Avatar
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    #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray View Post
    ...as is their pattern, Palm has leaked enough to string people along while being very careful not to say anything they can be held to.


    Simple questions for Palm:
    1. Is the 650 the last GSM/POS phone?
    2. Is it the last phone that Palm will sell direct?
    3. Is it the last unlocked phone that Palm will sell?
    4. Will there ever be a UMTS/POS phone?
    5. Will there ever be an unlocked 750?
    6. Is the 700p the last POS phone?
    Yes answers to 1, 2, 3, and 6 and no to 4 and 5 are consistent with the leaks but not with a plan to improve POS. I hope I have it wrong but I doubt it.
    I think people here on Treo Central think that Palm owes them something. Sorry, they owe us nothing. Their job is to sell product, make their numbers, and keep the stock price up. No one should expect them to answer any of the questions above, much less truthfully.

    All of the cell phone manufacturers speak with their phone offerings. We can either buy or not buy.

    There is an old saying - "It will shine when it shines". Palm is at a critical juncture in there corporate life (one of many). They have an aging OS and no direct control over the new replacement OS (I think). I also think their marketing plan has been BRILLIANT while stalling and waiting for a new flagship OS. What have they done?

    (1) Expanded the market in new directions by bringing out new models with a competitorīs operating system

    (2) And if the rumors about the 680 are true, they are leveraging their market leading image with the general public (not the "intelligentsia" here at TC) to bring out a retread of existing technology in a "flashy" new package with a lower price and incrementally higher model number aimed at the expanding smartphone public who want to be seen with a Treo.

    Palm owes us nothing. Folks here need to get over themselves.

    My $.02.
  17. #58  
    And if the rumors about the 680 are true, they are leveraging their market leading image with the general public (not the "intelligentsia" here at TC) to bring out a retread of existing technology in a "flashy" new package with a lower price and incrementally higher model number aimed at the expanding smartphone public who want to be seen with a Treo.

    Palm owes us nothing. Folks here need to get over themselves.

    My $.02.
    Applause, applause, applause.
    MMM | AntoineRJWright.com | BH | Jaiku

    Moved on to Symbian, but still will visit from time to time.
  18. #59  
    I'm have to wonder how well the 680 will do, since it seems to lack the flash of recent feature phones which it will be priced against.

    Otherwise I agree with your comments. I'm often amazed at how people INSIST that the next Treo must have feature A or B (wifi is the current flame item) otherwise Palm will fail immediately, and they need to sell it for next to nothing, and they have messed up their strategy and need to follow the advice here on TC.

    They're a business to sell product. Nothing more and nothing less. If you like the product buy it. If you don't then don't. TC is a great place to get advice and discuss the product. But Palm doesn't owe anybody but their share holders. The reality is that the opinions here don't reflect general reality at all. I've yet to met anyone in person who had a Treo who had the faintest idea of what the product can do and how to use it. People out there buying this stuff are hitting their own limits long before they are hitting the limits of the product.

    Quote Originally Posted by DHart View Post
    I think people here on Treo Central think that Palm owes them something. Sorry, they owe us nothing. Their job is to sell product, make their numbers, and keep the stock price up. No one should expect them to answer any of the questions above, much less truthfully.

    All of the cell phone manufacturers speak with their phone offerings. We can either buy or not buy.

    There is an old saying - "It will shine when it shines". Palm is at a critical juncture in there corporate life (one of many). They have an aging OS and no direct control over the new replacement OS (I think). I also think their marketing plan has been BRILLIANT while stalling and waiting for a new flagship OS. What have they done?

    (1) Expanded the market in new directions by bringing out new models with a competitorīs operating system

    (2) And if the rumors about the 680 are true, they are leveraging their market leading image with the general public (not the "intelligentsia" here at TC) to bring out a retread of existing technology in a "flashy" new package with a lower price and incrementally higher model number aimed at the expanding smartphone public who want to be seen with a Treo.

    Palm owes us nothing. Folks here need to get over themselves.

    My $.02.
    Main Phone: Treo 270/600/650/700w/700p/750v/Motorola Q/iPhone
    Tried but sold: Motorola Q/Nokia E61/700wx/HTC TyTN/Treo 680
  19. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by DHart View Post
    I think people here on Treo Central think that Palm owes them something. Sorry, they owe us nothing. Their job is to sell product, make their numbers, and keep the stock price up. No one should expect them to answer any of the questions above, much less truthfully.

    All of the cell phone manufacturers speak with their phone offerings. We can either buy or not buy.

    There is an old saying - "It will shine when it shines". Palm is at a critical juncture in there corporate life (one of many). They have an aging OS and no direct control over the new replacement OS (I think). I also think their marketing plan has been BRILLIANT while stalling and waiting for a new flagship OS. What have they done?

    (1) Expanded the market in new directions by bringing out new models with a competitorīs operating system

    (2) And if the rumors about the 680 are true, they are leveraging their market leading image with the general public (not the "intelligentsia" here at TC) to bring out a retread of existing technology in a "flashy" new package with a lower price and incrementally higher model number aimed at the expanding smartphone public who want to be seen with a Treo.

    Palm owes us nothing. Folks here need to get over themselves.

    My $.02.
    I'm going to disagree. Gaining new customers, but disappointing old ones is not necessarily good business IMO. Maybe it works financially, but I have lost so much interest in Palm due to their current practices, it isn't even funny!

    You think it's a good thing to retread out-of-date technology? It's almost 2007. And I still think dumping their OS was the worst thing they could have done. They lost their unique identity and now they're just another WM phone maker. That's not brilliant, what they did was desperate. They practically are admitting they no longer have faith in the Palm OS. And while waiting for them to get their act together with the supposed new OS(if they even are working on one, I am seriously doubting that), many have moved on to other OSs. Some people may never go back to Palm OS, even if they come up with a new version. When they went to WM, they opened up a can of worms.

    Now if Palm wants to become just another phone maker on the block, so be it, but now they have to compete with others who have been able to put out updated hardware faster. They cannot get away with slow out-dated releases now that they are using WM.

    Business always owes us something if they expect us to give them our money.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
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