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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by 2000 Man
    Read the link more closely as you have missed the point. You only do the full discharge on batteries with fuel gauges (laptop batteries) as stated clearly in the article. The Treo batteries clearly do not contain fuel gauges.
    OK, so we apparently agree then if a device has a battery fuel gauge / meter / status indicator, then one should do the periodic full discharge ? I don't know about yours but my Treo and every Treo I have seen certainly has a battery gauge. Turn on ya screen...ya see that blue thing in the upper right....that's the battery gauge.

    Here's the relevant section from the manual on page 13:

    After you turn on your Treo smartphone, the onscreen battery icon displays
    power status:
    Full battery icon : Battery is charged
    Partial battery icon : Battery has some power and is not charging
    Empty battery icon : Battery needs charging immediately
    Red lightning bolt : Charging
    Green lightning bolt with full battery : Fully charged
    Page 39 talks about how to read the battery gauge

    To display the remaining battery power, tap the battery icons at the top of the screen.
    Page 40 talks about battery gauge status

    [icon] - Displays the battery charge status. When the battery drains to 20% of its capacity, the icon changes from blue to red. At 10% of its capacity, you begin to receive warning messages, and at 5% of its capacity, the phone beeps and the icon changes from red to clear.

    [icon] Appears when your Treo battery is charging. The lightening bolt turns from red to green when the battery is fully charged and your phone remains connected to the AC charger.

    [icon] Appears when your Treo battery is fully charged.

    You also need to read the charging rate section on the batteryuniversity site

    Generally speaking, batteries live longer if treated in a gentle manner. High charge voltages, excessive charge rate and extreme load conditions will have a negative effect and shorten the battery life. This also applies to high current rate lithium-ion batteries.

    Nor is it better to charge lithium-ion battery at a slower charge rate, high discharge rates also contribute the extra wear and tear. Figure 2 shows the cycle life as a function of charge and discharge rates. Observe the good laboratory performance if the battery is charged and discharged at 1C. (A 0.5C charge and discharge would further improve this rating.)
    Again, the way Palm TS explained it to me.....Voltage and rate are to an extent controlled by the smart charging / protection circuit which adjusts rate and voltage according to battery status.....the battery status is determined by the battery gauge. If ya battery gauge is outta whack and uncalbrated, your battery may not receive the optimal charging rate and / or voltage.
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    OK, so we apparently agree then if a device has a battery fuel gauge / meter / status indicator, then one should do the periodic full discharge ? I don't know about yours but my Treo and every Treo I have seen certainly has a battery gauge. Turn on ya screen...ya see that blue thing in the upper right....that's the battery gauge.
    Um, no. A fuel gauge is a gauge that's on the battery. Have you never seen a laptop battery before? Please remove the battery from your Treo and look for a fuel gauge on it. You won't find one. Trust me. LOL
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by 2000 Man
    Um, no. A fuel gauge is a gauge that's on the battery. Have you never seen a laptop battery before? Please remove the battery from your Treo and look for a fuel gauge on it. You won't find one. Trust me. LOL
    I just negotiaterd a deal to supply 2,644 members of my professional society w/ laptops so yes I know a bit about laptops....The 3 I have used most recently include a $6,100 Toshiba, a $5,850 IBM and a 3rd party clone of a $4,675 Dell.....none of them have gauges on the battery. Each of them specifically state in the manual to never take the battery out unless replacing it. What is the point of putting a gauge on a battery oin a location where you can not see it ? Am I suppossed to turn my 17" laptop upside down on a plane top look at some gauge ? Why bother when the information is clearly displayed on screen ? I have only seen battery gauges on electronics where the battery is to be removed from the device for charging or when it's ina stacked "battery pack" where it is readily readable under every day usage.

    The Owner's Manual of the laptops all mention the battery gauge on the lower right hand corner of the screen.

    Go back to the battery university site:

    When the 'smart' battery was introduced in the 1990s, one of the main objectives was to enable communications between the battery and user. Adding a fuel gauge solved this......Most 'smart' batteries are equipped with a charge level indicator.....While SoC information displayed on a battery or computer screen is helpful, the fuel gauge resets to 100% each time the battery is recharged, regardless of the battery's SoH.
    So again YOUR source says the gauge may be EITHER on the battery itself OR the screen.

    To accept your position, we have to agree that:

    1. All that can be said about battery care can fit in the one sentence.
    2. The Li-Ion battery technology that the Treo uses is somehow different than the technology used in other electronic devices such as the Ipod whose manual specifically calls for periodic discharging.
    3. The Li-Ion battery in the Treo again uses different chemistry and technology than the Li-Ion batteries in laptops (and laptops w/o gauges on the battery) where the owner's manuals specifically call for periodic discharging of the battery.
    4. Palm Tech Support and 3rd party battery suppliers are out of their mind telling us to periodically discharge the battery to correct gauge errors.
  4. #24  
    im guessing this plant game isnt helping much, huh :/
    Visit me at myspace:
    www.myspace.com/stylestrumentals
  5. #25  
    Tomorrow I've had my 700p one (1) month.

    I charge the phone every night - when I get to my shop in the morning I put my main land line phone on call forwarding to my 700p. By 5-5:30pm my battery is at about 60-65% with moderate usage. Has never been below 50%. When I put it on charge (11:00pm'ish) it's at 55-65%

    I never run BT unless I need it (UConnect in my Jeep) and turned off "Beam". Have yet to have a problem.
  6. glenada's Avatar
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    #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by 2000 Man
    http://www.batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-34.htm

    Good info here. Basically, DON'T do a full discharge and recharge.
    Wow, what did we do before the Worldwide Web?
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    I just negotiaterd a deal to supply 2,644 members of my professional society w/ laptops so yes I know a bit about laptops....The 3 I have used most recently include a $6,100 Toshiba, a $5,850 IBM and a 3rd party clone of a $4,675 Dell.....none of them have gauges on the battery. Each of them specifically state in the manual to never take the battery out unless replacing it. What is the point of putting a gauge on a battery oin a location where you can not see it ? Am I suppossed to turn my 17" laptop upside down on a plane top look at some gauge ? Why bother when the information is clearly displayed on screen ? I have only seen battery gauges on electronics where the battery is to be removed from the device for charging or when it's ina stacked "battery pack" where it is readily readable under every day usage.

    The Owner's Manual of the laptops all mention the battery gauge on the lower right hand corner of the screen.

    Go back to the battery university site:



    So again YOUR source says the gauge may be EITHER on the battery itself OR the screen.

    To accept your position, we have to agree that:

    1. All that can be said about battery care can fit in the one sentence.
    2. The Li-Ion battery technology that the Treo uses is somehow different than the technology used in other electronic devices such as the Ipod whose manual specifically calls for periodic discharging.
    3. The Li-Ion battery in the Treo again uses different chemistry and technology than the Li-Ion batteries in laptops (and laptops w/o gauges on the battery) where the owner's manuals specifically call for periodic discharging of the battery.
    4. Palm Tech Support and 3rd party battery suppliers are out of their mind telling us to periodically discharge the battery to correct gauge errors.
    You still don't get it. Calibrating the fuel gauge (or battery gauge) has NOTHING to do with battery life. An uncalibrated fuel gauge will show the wrong charge amount but won't affect the battery life in any way.
  8. webedc's Avatar
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    #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by 2000 Man
    You still don't get it. Calibrating the fuel gauge (or battery gauge) has NOTHING to do with battery life. An uncalibrated fuel gauge will show the wrong charge amount but won't affect the battery life in any way.
    But when the gauge erroneously detects that the unit is at low battery, the unit will start it's shutdown sequence, correct? (That is, the unit may shutdown even though the battery still has a lot of juice left?)
    T R E O s t i l l R O C K S - to a certain extent
    Current: AT&T Tilt/HTC 8925/Kaiser
    Retired: AT&T Treo 750, VZW Treo 650, 700p, *700w, *700wx (* = loaner phone from Palm)
    Tried: AT&T Samsung Blackjack i607
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by webedc
    But when the gauge erroneously detects that the unit is at low battery, the unit will start it's shutdown sequence, correct? (That is, the unit may shutdown even though the battery still has a lot of juice left?)
    That hasn't been my experience.
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    I just negotiaterd a deal to supply 2,644 members of my professional society w/ laptops so yes I know a bit about laptops....The 3 I have used most recently include a $6,100 Toshiba, a $5,850 IBM and a 3rd party clone of a $4,675 Dell.....none of them have gauges on the battery. .
    BTW, Every Dell battery I have seen in the last 2 1/2 years has a separate gauge on it that you can press to see the charge level without turning on your laptop. This includes the main system and storage bay batteries.
  11. #31  
    hehe did you do a find for 'gauge' in the manual or something. don't tell me you flipped through the physical manual to come up with those quotes. anyways does anyone know how the treo measures battery life if there isn't a physical gauge on it?
  12. #32  
    A unique drawback of the Li-ion battery is that its life span is dependent upon aging from time of manufacturing (shelf life) regardless of whether it was charged, and not just on the number of charge/discharge cycles. This drawback is not widely publicized.

    At a 100% charge level, a typical Li-ion laptop battery that's full most of the time at 25 degrees Celsius, will irreversibly lose approximately 20% capacity per year. This capacity loss begins from the time it was manufactured, and occurs even when the battery is unused. Different storage temperatures produce different loss results: 6% loss at 0 C, 20% at 25 C, and 35% at 40 C. When stored at 40% charge level, these figures are reduced to 2%, 4%, 15% at 0, 25 and 40 degrees Celsius respectively.

    If the battery is used and fully depleted to 0%, this is called a "deep discharge" cycle, and this decreases its capacity. Approximately 100 deep discharge cycles leave the battery with about 75% to 85% capacity. When used in laptop computers or cellular phones, this rate of deterioration means that after three to five years the battery will have capacities that are too low to be usable.

    Li-ion batteries do not suffer from the memory effect, but they are not as durable as nickel metal hydride or nickel-cadmium designs and can be extremely dangerous if mistreated. They are usually more expensive, since they use a newer chemistry and have more advanced applications.

    --From wikipedia

    so folks, put your treos in the fridge when not in use.
  13. #33  
    Tips for extending battery life:
    * Unlike NiCad batteries or NiMH batteries, lithium-ion batteries should be charged early and often. However, if they are not used for a longer time, they should be brought to a charge level of around 40%. Never use the battery care functions some cellular phones provide for nickel based batteries. (This will deep cycle the batteries.)
    * Li-ion batteries should be kept cool. Ideally they are stored in a refrigerator. Aging will take its toll much faster at high temperatures. Keeping them in very hot cars can kill lithium-ion batteries.
    * Avoid running the battery through "deep discharge" cycles that is using it until it's fully depleted to 0 %.
    * Many authors suggest that freezing Li-ion batteries may be detrimental. However, most Li-ion battery electrolytes freeze at approximately -40 C. Household freezers rarely reach below -20C. Published experiments demonstrate that freezing (even below -40C) is unharmful if the battery is fully warmed to room temperature before use. More details are given in the book "Characteristics and Behavior of 1M LiPF6 1EC:1DMC Electrolyte at Low Temperatures" by L.M. Cristo, T. B. Atwater, U.S. Army Research, Fort Monmouth, NJ.
    * Buy Li-ion batteries only when needed. Look at the manufacturing date. That is when the aging process begins.
    * When using a notebook computer running from fixed line power over extended periods, it is advisable to remove the battery and store it in a cool place. However, check the manufacturer's instructions before removing the battery. Many laptop manufacturers recommend against removing the battery from a laptop while it is plugged in, as this can damage a laptop designed to operate with the battery installed. Some manufacturers are also concerned about dust accumulation with the battery removed.

    --From wikipedia
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by muncheroo
    If the battery is used and fully depleted to 0%, this is called a "deep discharge" cycle, and this decreases its capacity.
    Yup. Exactly what I've been saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grendal fly
    BTW, Every Dell battery I have seen in the last 2 1/2 years has a separate gauge on it that you can press to see the charge level without turning on your laptop. This includes the main system and storage bay batteries.
    That and I'd really like to see a $5000 Dell laptop. lol
  15. #35  
    http://configure.us.dell.com/dellsto...=M2010S4&s=dhs

    start there and you can get to 5k pretty quick.
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by oddlou
    http://configure.us.dell.com/dellsto...=M2010S4&s=dhs

    start there and you can get to 5k pretty quick.
    Now show me the generic clone of that Dell "laptop" that was just released.
  17. #37  
    If the battery is used and fully depleted to 0%, this is called a "deep discharge" cycle, and this decreases its capacity.
    Yes, but it's also recommended that you do a full discharge to recalibrate the gauge. Now, the real question is whether or not the battery is gauged. Not all laptop batteries have a physical gauge that you can read. Not all lithium ion batteries can give a % reading like laptop and treo batteries, so my bet is that treo batteries are gauged and hence every 30 charges or so a full discharge should be made to recalibrate the gauge. Now, we just need someone with authority on this topic to say whether or not the treo batteries are gauged, and if not, how the treo is able to tell the % of charge left.
  18. #38  
    Seidio should be able to tell us. I'll email them and find out if there are gauges in the Treo batteries.

    Still, recalibrating the battery (and thus decreasing its capacity) shouldn't be needed on the Treo. I've never had a Treo battery that ran all the way down be able to operate fine in another Treo as would be expected if the battery was miscalibrated.
  19. #39  
    That's a good point, but it's only one person's anecdotal evidence.

    I'm just really curious how the treo tells how much battery is left without a gauge and if there is a gauge, how the information is sent to the treo (there are only two contacts on the battery, whereas laptop batteries seems to have more connectors).

    If you think about it, if there is no gauge, the treo only gets a voltage and a current from the battery, which stay the same regardless of the amount of charge left. Even if there were some way to measure the small changes (if there are any at all) in resistance, voltage or current, I don't think it'd be accurate enough to give the single digit % readings that we get. This makes me think that there is some sort of gauge on the battery... anyways hopefully the guys at seidio get back to you soon with a good response =D
  20. #40  
    More info:

    http://pdaphonehome.com/forums/samsu...atteries.html?

    Quote Originally Posted by http://www.answers.com/topic/lithium-ion-battery
    In contrast to nickel-based batteries that require full discharges to keep the battery healthy, lithium ion batteries are better with frequent, shallow discharges before charging again.
    Quote Originally Posted by http://www.apple.com/batteries/
    You can also recharge a Lithium-ion battery whenever convenient, without the full charge or discharge cycle necessary to keep Nickel-based batteries at peak performance.
    Quote Originally Posted by http://www.batteryuniversity.com/partone-12.htm
    Preparing new lithium-ion for use

    Unlike nickel and lead-based batteries, a new lithium-ion pack does not need cycling through charging and discharging. Priming will make little difference because the maximum capacity of lithium-ion is available right from the beginning. Neither does a full discharge improve the capacity of a faded pack. However, a full discharge/charge will reset the digital circuit of a 'smart' battery to improve the state-of-charge estimation.
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