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  1. #161  
    Quote Originally Posted by jcoffey
    Having used a 700w from when it came out until the 700p was available on VZW I disagree with your assessment of WM.

    I found it very frustrating - multiple taps to do simple things such as turn on speaker phone or launch an app - why should I have to go to the file browser and then navigate folders to start an app that isn't on the drop down?

    The lack of memory also meant programs closed unexpectedly - multitasking is nice but a bit useless when open programs close to run explorer (which I liked - it had good support for frames and persistent cookies)

    Every few years I try the lastest version of WinCE (having done so since 1.0) and still find PalmOS better for small screen phones / pdas.
    Well said. Add in the horrible battery life and crazy-long loading/startup times for WM devices and PalmOS looks better and better for pdaphones.
  2. #162  
    Quote Originally Posted by 2000 Man
    Well said. Add in the horrible battery life and crazy-long loading/startup times for WM devices and PalmOS looks better and better for pdaphones.
    I'm not convinced of the "horrible battery life" being a WM5 effect.

    True, the ppc-6700 has worse battery life than a 700P--but that has more to do with the fact the 6700 just has a smaller battery (1350 mah) versus the Treo 700P (1800 mah). Throw in the fact that WM5 multi-tasks and is just "doing more" it is to be expected to have a slight negative effect on battery life.

    However, put both devices with a 2400 mah battery and run streaming music off of them, I'd expect both devices to get fairly similar results.

    I ran 14 hours yesterday, push email, a hard-reset and restore (trying out SPB), Verichat, took some pics/uploaded to splashblog and was in a low-signal area (0, 18 and 34%) and was at "70%" battery (which could mean 70% or 79%) on a 6700 with a 2400 battery.

    Now you can complain about the negatives of a larger battery on the 6700 but that is independent of WM5 as an OS and battery performance.

    Likewise, a 700w could just use a Seidio 2400mah battery as well.

    WM5 loadup times are painful, no doubt. But since it never "resets" itself randomly, I only reset when I want to (usually a software install) every couple of days and it never crashes, I find it acceptable.
    Last edited by Malatesta; 07/31/2006 at 01:01 AM.

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  3. #163  
    Some of these complaints are strange.

    Treo 700w -Talk time: up to 4.7 hours. Standby time: up to 15 days
    Treo 700p - Talk time: 4.5 hours Standby time: up to 300 hours (12.5 days)
    From palm's website itself.

    Regarding launching programs - all program icons are under the "programs" sub menu. This is not the file explorer. You should never have to use the file explorer to launch an app, unless you did not install it properly.

    Regarding programs closing due to lack of memory - no surprise when it has 32 Mb less ram than all the other PPC phones. Guess who is to blame for that.

    Even multiple taps for the speaker phone is Palm's fault - the default dialer has the speaker phone as a large button on screen to activate it - Palm replaced it with its own old familiar POS dialer.

    Again - we are talking about the OS here, not a particular incarnation in hardware, especially when made by Palm.

    Surur
  4.    #164  
    Quote Originally Posted by Trevante
    The point was, if PalmOS is so much better than WM, then why isn't Palm going to stick with PalmOS? Why are we hearing talks about a completely new platform?
    Again going back to the success of Palm, there's a reason it's on e-Week's Top 25 products of last 25 years"

    "With an almost zenlike minimilism of both software and hardware complexity, the Palm Pilot was no more than users needed - and exactly what many wanted"

    That is the essence of Palm. Why did MS drop DOS with the Windows overlay ? The bigger , better Win95 was a completely new thing (supposedly) right ? Well then why was it 40% slower than Windows For Workgroups ?

    Why did MS redo the whole "from the ground up" rewrite with Windows XP ? Why does Win2k outperform WinXP.....why does WinNT outperform Win2k ? Why does W4WGs outperform Win95 ?

    For this generation's hardware, for snappiness (read any of the 30 or more reviews comparing the 700w w/ either thre 650 or 700p) Palm OS walks all over any Windows alternative when using today's primary business tools....the platform that the Treo was designed for. Another market is emerging, as portable multimedia device, and seeing this, Palm wants to make the necessary moves to grow in new markets. On the same hardware, the POS will, like all versions of Windows, be faster than any subsequent version. But the idea is, like w/ windows, the newer rebuilt OS, will have more advanced hardware to run on thereby eliminating most of the slowdowns. The POS is an optimal match with the 650's / 700p's harware. It's about using the right tool for the right job, not using the same toool for every job.

    Like Win95 did with its ability to run older 16 bit programs, the new Palm OS will still run all of the old stuff. ALP or whatever Palm comes out with is therefore no different from what MS did when moving from DOS /W4WGs -> Win95 or from Windows98/ME ->WinXP .

    You'll note that the UI on the 700w is superior to generic WM5 devices because Palm engineers designed the UI enhancements that makes the Treo in most reviewer's minds, "the best WM5 device ever....." but lets not forget, the 2nd half of that sentence which says ..."but it still pales when compared with the [POS] Treo 650".
  5. #165  
    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    You'll note that the UI on the 700w is superior to generic WM5 devices because Palm engineers designed the UI enhancements that makes the Treo in most reviewer's minds, "the best WM5 device ever....." but lets not forget, the 2nd half of that sentence which says ..."but it still pales when compared with the [POS] Treo 650".
    Well said.
  6. #166  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Some of these complaints are strange.

    Regarding launching programs - all program icons are under the "programs" sub menu. This is not the file explorer. You should never have to use the file explorer to launch an app, unless you did not install it properly.
    I've had several programs that refuse to install in the programs menu (which in itself is a pain to have to dropdown and then go to programs just to launch a program) and one that inexplicably installed two icons.

    Regarding programs closing due to lack of memory - no surprise when it has 32 Mb less ram than all the other PPC phones. Guess who is to blame for that.

    Even multiple taps for the speaker phone is Palm's fault - the default dialer has the speaker phone as a large button on screen to activate it - Palm replaced it with its own old familiar POS dialer.

    Again - we are talking about the OS here, not a particular incarnation in hardware, especially when made by Palm.

    Surur
    Whose incarnation is irrelevant - Palm's choices may make the 700w one of the pdifferent from most WM phones, but WM's frustrating interface is MS' fault for trying to bring the desktop look and feel to a PDA.
  7. #167  
    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    Why did MS redo the whole "from the ground up" rewrite with Windows XP ? Why does Win2k outperform WinXP.....why does WinNT outperform Win2k ? Why does W4WGs outperform Win95 ?
    I checked out this thread because I thought I'd get an update on Palm working on the 700p issues. So I went to the end and lo and behold what do I see? Another thread with MS misinformation.

    Windows XP is not a "ground up re-write". Prior to Windows XP Microsoft had two lines of OS software. One was the consumer Windows line that was built on top of 16 bit DOS (i.e. Windows 95, Windows 98 Windows ME) and the other version targeted at businesses (i.e. Windows NT) which had removed the DOS underlayer making it a true 32 bit OS. There were two versions of Windows NT - Server and Workstation, Then Microsoft realized it made no sense to have two separate lines of OS and also wanted to rid themselves of the instabilities that 16 bit DOS gave Windows 9X. They wisely decided to consolidate the code and the product name. So the NT name was dropped and what would've been Windows NT 5.0 became Windows 2000 Server and Workstation. What became known as Windows XP is really a dot release of Windows 2000 Workstation with two versions available: Home and Professional. Professional amounts to what would be Windows NT 5.1 Workstation and Home is the same version with Domain and Security features deactivated. In fact, if you look through the Registry of these systems you will see the Windows NT version numbers I quoted. Windows 2003 is NT 5.3.

    And having administered these systems for over the last decade, I can reliably say that each version has outperformed the prior version in terms of speed and reliablity. Otherwise I would not have upgraded all our systems. I hope this clears up any confusion.


    And BTW, any update on Palm's work on the 700p issues?
    ROOTING for WebOS makes me more sympathetic to Cubs fans.
  8.    #168  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    My definition of a smartphone includes at the very least being able to install native software. As wikipedia says "A key feature of a smartphone is that additional applications can be installed on the device." If we cant agree on this then we dont have any common ground at all.
    The problem w/ wikipedia......

    http://spring.newsvine.com/_news/200...cked-from-site
  9. richpjr's Avatar
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    #169  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Again - we are talking about the OS here, not a particular incarnation in hardware, especially when made by Palm.
    Bingo. A 700w with a better screen and more memory would be a great device. But sadly, Palm crippled it and it's the reason why I have a 700p instead of a 700w.
  10. #170  
    always wondered this, but wm devices in the past always seemed to lag in screen resolution, that is part of the reason I never got a 700w (part of it anyway). Is the screen size dictated by Microsoft? All the wm devices have the same proportions and lower resolution ( at least the ones in the recent past they have).
  11.    #171  
    There's abunch of threads on this topic but the short of it is MS wanted to charge palm to write the driver for 320 x 320 which they might have done but MS refused Palm the exclusive use of what they were paying for so Palm balked.
  12.    #172  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob-C
    And having administered these systems for over the last decade, I can reliably say that each version has outperformed the prior version in terms of speed and reliablity. Otherwise I would not have upgraded all our systems. I hope this clears up any confusion.:
    Not at all....and I have personally proved it. Not that it is any secret, it's a well established fact in the IT world.....and one of the reasons most corps never upgrade any hardware to a new OS.....it's just been proven to be cost prohibitive.....if ya ain't buying new hardware with twice the RAM and twice the speed, don't bother.

    Before moving to any new hardware, OS or software, I have to benchmark it as part of my job. Because of the nature of our business, we are in the minority in the respect that we tax even SOTA computers with engineering and CAD applications. When staff time costs $150 an hour and up, paying people to sit and stare at screens when the PC needs to finish something before ya can start inputting again affects the bottom line.

    I have personally benchmarked every single MS OS on identical hardware and have multiple dual boot systems still in use . In every single case, on identical hardware, the newer OS trails significantly in performance benchmarks....the average is about 20%.

    1. I still have a Toshiba laptop which was sent to us as a testbed here with two hard drives from the factory. One has W4WGs and one has Win95...factory installs.

    Winstone with W4WGs = 63
    Winstone with Win95 = 45

    2. Check PC Mag December roundup issue 1995....100 PC's tested....3 vendors submit two identical machines....Gateway, Dell and Microm ..... average Winstone advantage of W4WGs machines over Win95 on identical hardware - 37%

    3. Check Bill O'Brien's article from ComShopper where he notes it takes a Pentium 90 to run programs at the same speed as they run under W4WGs on a 486/66.

    3. Check the system requirements for every MS OS....with each new release Min and recommended system requirments get higher.

    4. About half of today's PC's are not equipped to run Vista even w/o all the fancy stuff turned off

    http://www.techweb.com/wire/software/184430274

    5. Show me one instance where the minimum system requirements on a new MS OS was less than the one before it. On the contrary, every new MS has required a faster processor, more RAM and a larger installed footprint than the previous one simply because the amount of oomph required to get the minimum satisfactory performance level is higher with each release.

    6. Regarding Win95 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Windows

    Alas, the necessity of keeping compatibility with 16-bit programs meant the GUI components were still 16-bit only and not fully reentrant, which resulted in reduced performance and stability.
    7. Just ripping IE out of the OS once they started making it part of the OS increases speeds up to 25%.

    http://www.litepc.com/perform.html

    The ONLY way to get a new OS to run faster is to buy it with new hardware. ...one qualification....crossing over from one class of OS to another don't count....I am talking within families.....

    On identical hardware:

    NT4 is faster than NT5 is faster than NT5.1
    W4WGs is faster than Win95 is faster than Win98 is faster than WinME

    As far as stability, it's been up and down and it's hard to judge mostly becaue it depends on when you come in.....safe to say early adopters pay a huge price. We kept desktops on NT4 for performance and stability reasons as it was very stable from SP3 onward. OTOH, we had lots of problems with Win2k on the laptops which we early adopted because of the docking / undocking capability w/o shutting down OS feature.

    Help desk support calls under NT4 (again we came in at SP3) were the lowest of any operating system ever. In our office, WinXP has caused the most headaches though post SP2 it has been relatively quiet....SP2's arrival however made us miserable as installing it was very problematic shutting down critical progams such as AutoCAD. Our first XP box (arrived post SP1) was the only one here for well over a year and it required more IT time than the 8 other boxes combined. We have four XP boxes now and the main problems they give us are things MS did on purpose like the Genuine Advantage trojan and some SP3 fixes that weren't quite ready for prime time.
  13. jimm's Avatar
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    #173  
    I have a new 700p. I am having problems with it pausing while I am typing. it will do this dozens of times a day. has anyone seen this. seems like it might be part of ptunes issue. it is driving me crazy.
  14. #174  
    I am very happy with my 700P except for two things -

    1) Pocket Tunes still skips whenever I am listening to music and either browsing web or reading email with Chatter.

    2) I can't use Gloonet on my 700P. Whenever I try to listen using Gloonet, Pocket Tunes returns an error message. I know some folks have had luck with Orb, but all I use it for is to listen to music stored on my PC and I like the Gloonet interface more than Orb's.

    Other than that, I'm very pleased with my 700P. Initially I did have lots of problems but they all seem to have gone away once I removed LudusP.
  15. #175  
    No SAG on the 700p really sucks. It works flawlessly on the 650.
  16. #176  
    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE View Post
    http://palmaddict.typepad.com/palmad...ted_cultu.html



    Article goes on to address docking and P-Tunes issues being worked on
    This original post was 3 and a half months ago! It's nice that Palm was "working" on an update, but when are they going to stop "working" on it a deliver it?
    Bob Meyer
    I'm out of my mind. But feel free to leave a message.
  17. #177  
    Quote Originally Posted by nightlight View Post
    No SAG on the 700p really sucks. It works flawlessly on the 650.
    SAG?
    Bob Meyer
    I'm out of my mind. But feel free to leave a message.
  18. noodle's Avatar
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    #178  
    Sag?
    --------------------------------------------------------------
    noodlelest wet noodler
  19. Rob_T's Avatar
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    #179  
    I'm very pleased with my 700P. Initially I did have lots of problems but they all seem to have gone away once I removed LudusP.
    This is true for me as well. Once I went to version 1.19 of Ludas P it has been smooth sailing on the 700P.
    Late '08 MacBook Pro, 2.53 GHz, 8 GB RAM, 500 GB HD 7200; Mid 2011 MacBook Air 11" 1.6GHz, 4 GB RAM, 128 GB SSD; 32GB iPhone 4; 32GB WiFi iPad 2 (White); Apple TV; Nikon D300; AND (Hopefully) a 16GB HP Touchpad from the fire sale! TWITTER: @RobT43
  20. #180  
    Quote Originally Posted by meyerweb View Post
    SAG?
    sag = softick audio gateway. for playing audio over bluetooth headphones.
    it's not a crack house, it's a crack home.
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