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  1. #81  
    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    I keep hearing about unnamed modern "features" without ever hearing what people actually want to do with them". WiFi is a great modern feature but one I really can't do much with....rarely ever in aplace with WiFi. EVDO / HSDPA is a great feature but one I can't really do much with, Despite being in the nation's 23 largest area poulation wise, we still ain't got it.
    Just because you don't use these features doesn't mean they're not useful for others.

    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    I hear a lot about Windows "alleged" multitasking but I seem to hear more about problems single tasking in WM. And frankly, on a 2" screen, I ain't capable of multitasking so my device having that capability is the proverbial teats on a bull in most respects. Other than being able to say look an e-mail address or web address while not losing a phone call, I am lost on the value of the whole mulitasking thing. Now I just hang up, look up the info on a site and e-mail the info which I can do a hell of a lot faster anyway.
    Personally, I'd be happy just being able to check email or surf the web while listening to music without having it skip to the point of being unlistenable.


    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE

    ...

    I don't think I have ever heard even their biggest fans say they trust MS. After all this is a company that is now charging you $50 a year to protect you from the holes in the OS.....and if it doesn't sell well, can we not expect them to just leave more holes to spur those sales ?
    Exactly my point. If MS is starting to look good by comparison then Palm is doing something very wrong! Personally, I don't touch Windows on the desktop because I have a better alternative in Linux. But right now IMHO there is nothing better for smartphones in terms of support, testing, features, compatibility and choice than Windows. Unfortunate, but true. Maybe in a few years when Linux smartphones become prevalent and developers have ported lots of linux software to them things will be different. But not now.

    Why do I still use a PalmOS phone then? Because:
    1. It's still the easiest to use (especially one handed)
    2. I own a lot of PalmOS software
    3. I don't particularly like Microsoft

    However, I'd be sticking my head in the sand if I didn't realize that Microsoft is working a lot harder to get my business than Palm is. Sooner or later their hard work will pay off and WM will be on par with PalmOS in terms of ease of use.
  2. #82  
    Well said. I wish it weren't true but it is. WM is just plain better technically and feature-wise.

    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Jack, a very long post, but let me tell you how WM is superior. Of course it depends on the hardware, and the Treo may not be the best platform for all the advantages.

    My HTC Universal however is. I'll give you technical advantage :
    - Supports VGA - lovely on my Universal.
    - multi-tasking - I was using logmein (which has a cumbersome login procedure) and needed to check my calender - I was able to switch between the two with no problem.
    - memory protection - when my browser crashes I dont get "resets", it just closes and I restart it.
    - supports USB Host - My Universal does not have it, but other WM PDA phones does, and I had it in my Loox 720. I could attach full-sized keyboards and USB thumb drives with no problem.
    - multiple concurrent network connections - WIFI and GPRS simultaneously, with automatic change over.
    - Subset of .Net API makes development easy, especially for vertical apps. Apps come faster to Wm than Palm (e.g. minimo, Acrobat, Skype etc)
    - Subset of DirectX makes for very nice games. WM has better games than PalmOS.
    - native push e-mail
    - more hardware support by different OEM's
    - competition amongst OEM's, resulting in better devices (e.g ones with slim form factors, 4 Megapixel cameras, WIFI G, Bluetooth 2, VGA screens HSDPA etc etc)
    - native integration with Vista and WMP
    - an OS under active development

    The next version will support 32 000 concurrent processes, and have better one-handed usage (due to merging the smartphone and PPC Phone OS)

    There's more, but thats enough for now.

    WM needs good hardware to expose its full potential (sneer at Palm's 32MB RAM). It is however a better OS.

    Surur
  3. #83  
    Quote Originally Posted by 2000 Man
    No, you're just not very discerning or demanding of your device.
    WOW! When did you become a mindreader??? How did you know that about me? We have never met, but somehow you know all about how "discerning or demanding" I am of my device!

    Maybe I am just smarter than you and can work through or correct problems that stump you? Hmm???

    Maybe you should just buy your 700w and go enjoy it in the 700w forum?
  4.    #84  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Jack, a very long post, but let me tell you how WM is superior. Of course it depends on the hardware, and the Treo may not be the best platform for all the advantages.

    My HTC Universal however is. I'll give you technical advantage :
    - Supports VGA - lovely on my Universal.
    - multi-tasking - I was using logmein (which has a cumbersome login procedure) and needed to check my calender - I was able to switch between the two with no problem.
    - memory protection - when my browser crashes I dont get "resets", it just closes and I restart it.
    - supports USB Host - My Universal does not have it, but other WM PDA phones does, and I had it in my Loox 720. I could attach full-sized keyboards and USB thumb drives with no problem.
    - multiple concurrent network connections - WIFI and GPRS simultaneously, with automatic change over.
    - Subset of .Net API makes development easy, especially for vertical apps. Apps come faster to Wm than Palm (e.g. minimo, Acrobat, Skype etc)
    - Subset of DirectX makes for very nice games. WM has better games than PalmOS.
    - native push e-mail
    - more hardware support by different OEM's
    - competition amongst OEM's, resulting in better devices (e.g ones with slim form factors, 4 Megapixel cameras, WIFI G, Bluetooth 2, VGA screens HSDPA etc etc)
    - native integration with Vista and WMP
    - an OS under active development
    For every one of those you can find a corresponding palm advantage...

    -WM doesn't support thr "shirt pocket" form factor of 320 xc 320
    -multitasking causes WM's memory problems
    -my browser doesn't crash....5 resets in 19 months.
    -Card Export II
    -API business doesn't fit the "what can I do" limitation and Palm has orders or magnitude more apps including people that write their first programs "overnight"
    -Haven't seen anything superior to EDGE or Doom but I find gaming ona 2" screen a novelty at best
    -push only native w/ windows server; superior 3rd party options available on palm
    -more hardware support...this means beans and is typical of the "suppossed advantages".....I tryinbg to decide whether to buy a Treo or a Universal....the fact that WM is ona 3rd devcie means what in this decision ?
    -If it can't do what Treo does then it's not a better device.....
    -native intergration...all that means is that I run more riusk of woindows security problems affecting my mobile devcie; again if Palm gives me the integration tool, who cares....and it's not native for those who choose not to use Outlook.
    -seems to me ALP and Linux is under actiuve development

    But again, skip the Redmond press releases and tell me what I can do with the device. What can I do on a Treo 700w that I can't do on a 700p ?
  5.    #85  
    Quote Originally Posted by clipcarl
    Just because you don't use these features doesn't mean they're not useful for others.
    My point is that having a feature doesn't necessarily mean that it is going to ber useful. I remember when Office 97 came out one of the features it raved about was the "ability to put a pie chart within a pie chart". Why not have the default template include 27 fonts of 12 colors and 18 different type sizzes....could such a thing makle it more hard to read ?

    Personally, I'd be happy just being able to check email or surf the web while listening to music without having it skip to the point of being unlistenable.
    A known problem that is being worked on.

    Maybe in a few years when Linux smartphones become prevalent and developers have ported lots of linux software to them things will be different. But not now.
    Linux is doing pretty OK as it stands with a good lead over MS

    TDG's latest report, Advanced Mobile Operating Systems: Analysis & Forecasts, finds that at year-end 2005 Symbian enjoyed a market share of 51%, followed by Linux (23%) and Microsoft's mobile OS platforms (17%). Linux enjoyed a sizeable boost in shipments during the second half of 2005, something which very few forecasters were expecting but a trend which TDG believes will continue.
    The key for palm is, the point being well made in an other thread, is that form sells not substance....they may have the best functional OS but it's at the end of its design life...as hardware gets more capable, the OS they put on it must get more capable. They have 8 - 18 months to get Linux on a Treo....if they can't do it by then, they gonna lose. The Treo market it has become obvious is not the WM market....Verizon's sales prove that. But despite their Vista problems, WM^ is soemwhere on the horizon. I think one thing MS has shown is that it may take them 5 or 6 tries eventually they can copy anything. If they can nail POS useability, while HTC figures how to offset the much larger resource drain with faster processors and more memory in a "shirt pocket" form factor the POS will lsoe ground.

    I kinda think of the battle right now as like when the year before the Red Sox beat the Yankeses in the Series. The Sox (WM5) didn't quite measure up but the next year, with a few changes, they beat the same ole Yankees. We know that MS has chnages ahead...we know a bit less about PalmSource or whatever else PalmInc is doing with all those Linux engineers. If they don't have a new watershed device with a new OS by XMas 2007, they might as well drop it.....of course earlier would be better .
  6. #86  
    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    For every one of those you can find a corresponding palm advantage...
    -WM doesn't support thr "shirt pocket" form factor of 320 xc 320
    I dont know what kind of shirt pockets you have, but I'm sure this one will fit in it fine. At 11.5mm its almost exactly half as thick as the Treo 700 (22.5mm)
    http://www.coolsmartphone.com/images...-smartflip.jpg

    -multitasking causes WM's memory problems
    You mean like blazer filling up the DBCache and not releasing it? Multi-tasking demands more memory, but actually prevents memory problems due isolating processes.

    -my browser doesn't crash....5 resets in 19 months.
    Yours doesn't, but Blazer is a rather common cause of resets. Its disingenuous to deny this.

    -Card Export II
    Thats USB Slave, like a thumb drive. USB Host means being able to ACCEPT the thumb drive.

    -API business doesn't fit the "what can I do" limitation and Palm has orders or magnitude more apps including people that write their first programs "overnight"
    This is now and has been myth for a long time. Wm is adding apps faster than POS currently. According to Palm and Pocketgear, there is only 7700 more Palm than PocketPC apps.
    http://surur.sytes.net/pdasoftware.png

    -Haven't seen anything superior to EDGE or Doom but I find gaming ona 2" screen a novelty at best
    Sorry, but Todd Sherman from Smartboxdesign does not agree with you.
    http://smartboxdesign.blogspot.com/2...pocket-pc.html


    -push only native w/ windows server; superior 3rd party options available on palm
    The same superior solutions are available on Windows Mobile PLUS you get to use free push email on the eh most common business groupware server in the world.

    -more hardware support...this means beans and is typical of the "suppossed advantages".....I tryinbg to decide whether to buy a Treo or a Universal....the fact that WM is ona 3rd devcie means what in this decision ?
    I means if your needs change you can change devices without losing your investment in time, expertise and software. Other people seem to value this.

    -If it can't do what Treo does then it's not a better device.....
    The Treo is not the perfect device. You may feel it perfect FOR YOU, but other people with different priorities (e.g. those who want 3G and WIFI and GPS on the same device appreciate that somewhere in the world there is an OEM who is making a device for them, that will still run their old a familiar software.

    -native intergration...all that means is that I run more risk of woindows security problems affecting my mobile devcie; again if Palm gives me the integration tool, who cares....and it's not native for those who choose not to use Outlook.
    I was talking about the new windows vista device centre, and of course PlayForSure support with WMP. Security issues are overblown.

    -seems to me ALP and Linux is under actiuve development
    You dont even know if ALP will be used by Palm, and you have no confirmation that PalmLinux even exists.

    But again, skip the Redmond press releases and tell me what I can do with the device. What can I do on a Treo 700w that I can't do on a 700p ?
    How about use a SD WIFI card? Thats a function of the OS, which you can use on the Wm Treo, but not the POS Treo. And what about the software available only on WM, e.g. Skype and Slingbox. You can run two GPS logging software programs at the same time (e.g. TomTom, and software that warns you of approaching speed traps.) That GPS multiplexing is also part of the OS. Now these things may not interest you, but thats not what you asked.

    Surur
    Last edited by surur; 07/22/2006 at 08:56 AM.
  7. #87  
    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    The key for palm is, the point being well made in an other thread, is that form sells not substance....they may have the best functional OS but it's at the end of its design life...as hardware gets more capable, the OS they put on it must get more capable. They have 8 - 18 months to get Linux on a Treo....if they can't do it by then, they gonna lose. The Treo market it has become obvious is not the WM market....Verizon's sales prove that. But despite their Vista problems, WM^ is soemwhere on the horizon. I think one thing MS has shown is that it may take them 5 or 6 tries eventually they can copy anything. If they can nail POS useability, while HTC figures how to offset the much larger resource drain with faster processors and more memory in a "shirt pocket" form factor the POS will lsoe ground.
    Even if Palm came out with an update for the 700p tomorrow that somehow upgraded the OS to Linux 2.6 running at lightening speed with full backward compatibility with all PalmOS apps that wouldn't be enough. A larger problem is that Palm can't survive if their hardware are the only devices that run this OS. The market is not going to create another Apple Computer and it would be unfathomable hubris if Palm thinks they are going to become one. Developers simply won't support it and if developers don't support it (enough) people and businesses won't buy it.

    The only way this could work is if this Linux platform gets on many other devices by offering advantages that other OEMs can't resist. In other words, there would have to be a full OS and application stack available to OEMs that is somehow going to significantly increase their profits enough to mitigate the risk. Obviously, the way such a platform would increase OEM profits would be to reduce costs of licensing and hardware. If enough OEMs license the platform and enough suitable ready-to-go development APIs and tools are available to make it worthwile for developers to write apps for it then just maybe we could see a viable Linux-based platform for these devices.

    Could Palm do this? No chance in hell. All that talk about them eschewing the Access Linux Platform and developing their own Linux-based OS platform is just talk or they are incredibly stupid and grossly mismanaged. That is simply not the business they are in.

    Could Access do this? Maybe if the planets all align properly. They'd have to practically give away the OS platform and application stack to OEMs at a very low price. They would of course have to give away the development tools. They could make their money by selling integration and engineering services to the OEMs. They seem to be making good progress and they have wisely chosen to base their system on proven technologies so who knows...

    In any case, I'm starting to doubt that Palm will be around much longer as an independently operating concern. It's been years since they done anything truly innovative or cutting-edge and the only reasons any of us still buy their products is because they are the only maker of a smartphone that runs PalmOS and we're used to buying Treos.
  8. #88  
    Your responses to these points are weak and contrived. Thumbs down.

    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    For every one of those you can find a corresponding palm advantage...

    -WM doesn't support thr "shirt pocket" form factor of 320 xc 320
    -multitasking causes WM's memory problems
    -my browser doesn't crash....5 resets in 19 months.
    -Card Export II
    -API business doesn't fit the "what can I do" limitation and Palm has orders or magnitude more apps including people that write their first programs "overnight"
    -Haven't seen anything superior to EDGE or Doom but I find gaming ona 2" screen a novelty at best
    -push only native w/ windows server; superior 3rd party options available on palm
    -more hardware support...this means beans and is typical of the "suppossed advantages".....I tryinbg to decide whether to buy a Treo or a Universal....the fact that WM is ona 3rd devcie means what in this decision ?
    -If it can't do what Treo does then it's not a better device.....
    -native intergration...all that means is that I run more riusk of woindows security problems affecting my mobile devcie; again if Palm gives me the integration tool, who cares....and it's not native for those who choose not to use Outlook.
    -seems to me ALP and Linux is under actiuve development

    But again, skip the Redmond press releases and tell me what I can do with the device. What can I do on a Treo 700w that I can't do on a 700p ?
  9. #89  
    Reading these long posts has convinced me of only one thing: Palm is not in trouble because there is an army of people out there who will stick their heads in the sand and follow Palm unconditionally =D
  10. #90  
    Your statement sucks crap. Before upgrading to the 700p I did take the time to try the 700w and I have in the past spent time with other Windows based PDAs. My choice of a Palm based device is based on what many people believe - it works and it works well. Simplicity, reliable, not a lot of effort to get to the bottom line.

    Ben
  11. #91  
    Your statement sucks crap. Before upgrading to the 700p I did take the time to try the 700w and I have in the past spent time with other Windows based PDAs. My choice of a Palm based device is based on what many people believe - it works and it works well. Simplicity, reliable, not a lot of effort to get to the bottom line.
    I came to the same conclusion and thats why I'm a 700p owner. However, this thread is as much of a debate on the future of palm as it is of the current pda landscape, so it is your response to my statement that is crap.
  12. #92  
    So they are both crap. However, it does get really old when people say what you did. I am not sticking my head in the sand. As for following Palm unconditionally? No, not at all. It is a device that does an excellent job at what it does, regardless of the flaws. Easy to use, low maintenance (most of the time) and it just plain works. As I stated, I have taken the time to try similar Windows devices and that is why I went with the 650. When the 700w came out, I wandered down to Verizon and played for a while. I then went to CompUSA and tried one device I was eyeing. When the 700p came out, I waited a short while then purchased it.

    When a Windows based device comes out that works as well as the 700p does, then I will seriously look at it. Until them, the POS base is good enough for me.
  13.    #93  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    -WM doesn't support thr "shirt pocket" form factor of 320 xc 320
    [COLOR=
    wow....I am gonn skip the quoting cause all of the HTML codes, it's just too hard to edit.

    I don't see a KB on that phone, as I said if ya gotta pop the KB, it's not a 1 handed device.

    Gain having ahd them side by side , the 700w is slower and has more memory issues than the 700p.....sales alone should confirm the public's disatisfaction with the w.

    Uh....the blue (palm) line in that graph is on top right. Looks liek Palm has more apps. Looking at the rate of development is silly......There's a limited number of possibly useful ideas for things to run on a device. Let's look at a simplifiued case. In a normal business offcie, how many apps is Joe Boss gonna buy ? Word Processor, Spreadsheet, Database....let's say it's 20. So one vendor has all 20 apps. Vendor 2 has 5 apps....if he does 5 new apps per year should we proclaim that the second vendor's late to the party effort is soemhow significant ? Who cares if WM is adding apps fatser....they have to....they are way behind.....the Palm development community has alreaduy filled almost every niche there is and there's very few places left to go.

    Hey I have every penny from 1909 through 2006 except one in my coin collection. I ahve added 1 penny a year as it was minted ......however your collection must be superior cause you have added 5 pennies a year. The only reason you can add 5 pennies a year is cause you didn't already have them when I did. Wow WM now has Directory Assistant....Palm has had it since the last millenium

    Todd SHerman doesn't agree nor disagree with me...at leats not in refernce to the quoite you pasted above it. I said that games on a 2" screen a novelty at best. He said at thius point in time more developers are starting new gamne designs than Palm devlopers. Again, same as above....With Palm they've BTDT. More games exist on Palm so therefore WM must develop at a higher rate just to catch up....as for new stuff, gaming is generallya ,multi year effort....anyone starting now knows Palm is going to switch to Linux or ALP within next 12-18 months so devloping stuff on Garnet for a late 2007 release would be silly.

    Softeware investment ....don't go there. To move to WM, by your own words, I'd have to throw all that away....and let's not forget MS feelings on anything free. As has been reported Palm developers are already porting their stuff to Linux / ALP and upgrade paths will be available. I would say MS could help it's case by convincing developers on both platforms to provide a 0 or low cost 'switch" but I don't see them doing that.

    There sould be a GPS / WifI / Kitchen sink enabled device but, to date, size, power and price limitations ahve worked against it. Colligan says Treo's getting WiFi and I think the delay is more to do with the carriers trying to hold off the wave as loig as they can than technical issues.

    So now we finally it...the mastery of WM is the fact that it can use an SD WiFi card. So that's what we get for all we have to give up....not enough for me. I find being able to use my Treo at a hockey game while holding a beer in my other hand a far more desirable feature. Having WiFi access when a person is in the 0.00002 % geographical area of the US that is covered by WiFi, you get to take advantage of this. Europe has more WiFi spots so perhaps its more advantageous over there but here in US at this time, unless you spend all ya time on campus or something, there's not much opportunity to take advanatge.

    BTW, I could swear there's a thread on here about running TomTom and geocaching software at the same time on POS.
  14.    #94  
    Quote Originally Posted by clipcarl
    Your responses to these points are weak and contrived.
    Well in looking again at the 700w's dismal sales reports and Palm's subsequent stock drop in relation tehreto, looks like the buying poublic doesn't agree with you.
  15. #95  
    Jack, you are confusing devices with the OS. The question is whether POS or WM is the superior OS. The answer is simple: WM is superior because it allows you to do more. If you can tell me what wonderful features POS has which makes it superior, please let me know.

    Surur
  16. #96  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    Jack, you are confusing devices with the OS. The question is whether POS or WM is the superior OS. The answer is simple: WM is superior because it allows you to do more. If you can tell me what wonderful features POS has which makes it superior, please let me know.

    Surur
    1. Speed
    2. Stability
    3. Third-party developer support
  17. #97  
    1. Speed
    2. Stability
    3. Third-party developer support


    1. Due to NVFS not as true as it used to be, but I will give you that one.
    2. That one if far from true. Maybe a long time ago, but POS has long since lost its reputation for stability
    3. This is completely false. Is POS being supported by Skype, or Opera or Adobe or Slingbox or ALK etc? There has not even been a new version of Netfront for a long time.

    So in the end not much at all. I would personally have suggested things such as a superior implementation of 5-way support, and tight intergration between the OS and the one main licensee. There is not much beyond that.

    Surur
  18. #98  
    You forgot about 1-handed usage. WM5 sucks @ss.
  19. #99  
    That's what I meant by better 5 way. POS has its strenghts, but its at the UI, not technology level.

    Surur
  20. #100  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    That's what I meant by better 5 way. POS has its strenghts, but its at the UI, not technology level.

    Surur
    No question. WM5 is more powerful but sucks in everyday use for a phone.

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