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  1. #21  
    Palm OS is at end of life. There's no future in it.

    The Treo has a bright future, although others will eventually catch it.

    That said, the 700P is the best PDA/phone on the market.

    Windows Mobile will get better...16 month from now, the choice will be the Linux alternative that Access is making, or Window Mobile 6

    In the meantime, I'll enjoy my 700P
  2. #22  
    I don't care about the operating system. I care about the user interface. How easy is it to do things? How easy is it for a complete dolt to pick up the device and make it go?

    It seems to me that the people that like the Palm OS (and that includes me) are really saying they like the ease of use of the device. This means that Palm put a tremendous amount of care, attention, and hard, hard work to make things easy to do on the Treo.

    WM5 is an immature operating system in that respect, because Microsoft has not put the same level of care, attention, and hard, hard work into making things easy to do. This I know from personal firsthand frustration with the MDA click click click curse click.

    I think Microsoft put just enough effort into the user experience to make the WM product barely palatable to an end user, and they've put a great deal of emphasis in making the mobile Windows experience similar to the desktop Windows experience and that's just dumb.

    I don't care what's down deep -- Palm OS, Linux, WM, Symbian, or COBALT. I just want the phone to be brain-dead simple and fast. The Treo 650's pretty good at that.

    Yeah, I want wifi. Yeah, I want better bluetooth. Yeah, I want a bunch of stuff. But all of those are me interacting with the device. If Microsoft spent a ton of time on user interface for WM6 and it was really nice to use, I'd jump ship. C'mon. They know how to do that. Just ask the Mac fanatics about Microsoft's *ahem* creative inspiration for the Windows program, derived at relatively little effort from Apple's enormous effort.

    Having walked around the block with the MDA, a Blackberry, and the Treo 650, for me the Treo 650 is by far the easiest and nicest to use. For me at least.
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    XP home is $80. WM is between $8-15. POS 5 is in a similar range. There is a good chance WM will be cheaper than POS, simply because Microsoft has deeper pockets.
    If we go with the deep pocket logic, then why isn't windows cheaper than Linux ? MS will charge more cause they think they can .... and hardware manufacturers have learned they don't wanna be at anyone's mercy. They are going to make sure an alternative is available.

    If this consortium has an alternative available, MS might charge $15....but if no alternative exists then it's gonna be $30. If WM is $15 and Access is $5....
    at 122 million units per year, which one you think they will wanna pay for.

    Either way, the hardware vendors win by haviung an alternative, even if it's just a hammer to hold over MS's head.
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by Tastypeppers
    It seems to me that the people that like the Palm OS (and that includes me) are really saying they like the ease of use of the device. This means that Palm put a tremendous amount of care, attention, and hard, hard work to make things easy to do on the Treo.
    I'd rephrase and say "People that like non MS OS ..." . The problem I have with MS is that it's all or nothing. Take it with all the bloat or not at all. WM would probably be a lot better without being specificallys set up to give MSIE some advantage.....without Media Player, etc.....not only is it there but API's are finagled to make it hard for competing software to work w/o unnecessary overhead. Without all the "clutter", it could be leaner, meaner and more configurable.
  5. #25  
    Tastypep ... well said! You've articulated my thinking as well.
    ---
    iPhone / Samsung Epix

    Current playtoys:
    Also: Treo 750 (Test phone) / Sony Ericcson w900 (unlocked for international travel)
  6. #26  
    You know, this thread reminds me of the bad old days back in 2000 when every "internet appliance" startup in the world were all saying the same thing: "the PC is dead. Soon NO ONE will have a PC. There's just no future in it. " It's now well into 2006, and guess what I'm still using...

    Is the palm platform dead? No, absolutely not. Further development without linux help is questionable, but I think of it this way: Palm is still making phones with the Garnet OS, I see co-workers who identify themselves as "on the bleeding edge" still clinging to Palm Tungsten devices and using them actively, and even I don't see a need to go to Windows Mobile because it really is just too much bloat.

    And I still see lots of application support. GoodLink, Opera Mini, IBM java Platform, to name just a couple of heavy hitters. AvantGo still works. Sun still distributes a sync tool for is SunOne server platform. The embedded tools are all still there, and still quite useful.

    And this is all coming from someone pretty heavily disillusioned with the "smart device" concept. I've come to think of smart devices as gadgets that do lots of things, all of them in less than optimum ways. Yet, if I ever saw a need to use such a device, I would still go back to a Palm OS model. Windows Mobile is and always will be more trouble than its worth, and complicating more things than it simplifies.

    My hope is that a Linux based OS will be developed for what were palm devices, and they continue with the simplicity of the PalmOS interface (and a little backward compatibility would be nice). The genius of Palm was, and still is, the simplicity. And I think as long as people are still buying devices like the Treo 700p, and the carriers are still seeing fit to sell them and order more, then it's gotta be worth it to some developers to continue developing and refining apps.
    Last edited by scaredpoet; 06/25/2006 at 12:08 AM. Reason: my typing sucks
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by Tastypeppers
    I don't care about the operating system. I care about the user interface. How easy is it to do things? How easy is it for a complete dolt to pick up the device and make it go?

    It seems to me that the people that like the Palm OS (and that includes me) are really saying they like the ease of use of the device. This means that Palm put a tremendous amount of care, attention, and hard, hard work to make things easy to do on the Treo.

    WM5 is an immature operating system in that respect, because Microsoft has not put the same level of care, attention, and hard, hard work into making things easy to do. This I know from personal firsthand frustration with the MDA click click click curse click.

    I think Microsoft put just enough effort into the user experience to make the WM product barely palatable to an end user, and they've put a great deal of emphasis in making the mobile Windows experience similar to the desktop Windows experience and that's just dumb.

    I don't care what's down deep -- Palm OS, Linux, WM, Symbian, or COBALT. I just want the phone to be brain-dead simple and fast. The Treo 650's pretty good at that.

    Yeah, I want wifi. Yeah, I want better bluetooth. Yeah, I want a bunch of stuff. But all of those are me interacting with the device. If Microsoft spent a ton of time on user interface for WM6 and it was really nice to use, I'd jump ship. C'mon. They know how to do that. Just ask the Mac fanatics about Microsoft's *ahem* creative inspiration for the Windows program, derived at relatively little effort from Apple's enormous effort.

    Having walked around the block with the MDA, a Blackberry, and the Treo 650, for me the Treo 650 is by far the easiest and nicest to use. For me at least.
    Well said... every word, every comparison, every thought.

    All of the IF's you said about MS, so true.. too bad they're just IF's. IF they ever did anything you said, I'd jump ship to, but they more than likely won't, which is sad, and it's too bad..

    I'm a low voltage installer, I deal with alot of super-intendants through out the day, many of them have upgraded to the 700w's, and all of them have complained at one point or another about their phone being a PITA to use, usually when they're trying to access information in their phone relating to the job we're doing for them. To add to that, they've all mentally noted that using their clipboard and all 10 million papers was much easier than their 700w's :-D

    Meanwhile, I "snicker" as my former 650 and my new 700p are all very easy to use and I can access what I'm looking for within seconds.

    I don't think I'd ever switch to a WM phone unless WM get's it's act together and becomes friendly... and I mean more friendly than Windows itself :-D
    Joshua Miller
    jemiller@jem.phoenix.az.us
  8. #28  
    Palm is in the exact same situation Apple was in a few years ago when it had OS 9. It was competing against more modern operating systems, and the Mac just wouldn't survive unless the OS was overhauled. So they went with Unix for OS X, and created an emulation layer for older OS 9 software so that everyone could run all software as seamlessly as possible while giving people a modern OS with all the goodies.

    I think Palm will do the same with Linux, and create a PalmOS 'classic" emulation layer in order to give PalmOS users a migration path. It will also have pre-emptive multitasking and all of the goodies that go with it.

    Palm is where Apple was a few years ago, and it needs to make all the right choices in order to compete effectively with WM devices which are clearly taking over. Any missteps would be tragic for the Palm platform.
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    XP home is $80. WM is between $8-15. POS 5 is in a similar range. There is a good chance WM will be cheaper than POS, simply because Microsoft has deeper pockets.

    Surur
    Surur,

    I agree on your cost analysis, but WM is so far away from being a good converged device experience for the busy executive. Sure the current 700p can't multitask and lacks in that area. But the overall experience of Palm is much better. I have a hard time imagining a WM device working that well -- even on the next release.

    I spent time testing the 700W and 6700. I don't think it is even a close call. A Linux based palm would have much less overhead.

    So I think Palm OS will contine to thrive.

    Glenn
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn_Butler
    Surur,

    I agree on your cost analysis, but WM is so far away from being a good converged device experience for the busy executive. Sure the current 700p can't multitask and lacks in that area. But the overall experience of Palm is much better. I have a hard time imagining a WM device working that well -- even on the next release.

    I spent time testing the 700W and 6700. I don't think it is even a close call. A Linux based palm would have much less overhead.

    So I think Palm OS will contine to thrive.

    Glenn
    Thanks for the reply. I think people are mistaking their own preference with the movement of the market. Of course the movement of the market consists of individuals each making their own choices, but its apparent from looking at the shifts in the market that POS has lost momentum a long time ago. Once that momentum is lost its incredibly difficult to regain it. I can give a number of examples. MacOS is a good one. They now have a thoroughly modern OS, but they still have less than 5% market share, 6 years after the introduction of OSX.

    Java has lost momentum in the same way, as has Sun.

    If ACCESS produces the holy grail of mobile OS's mid 2007 it is likely not to have much effect on their fortunes. ALP will run POS software, but the UI will not look very Palm-like at all. Why would anyone use their version of Linux vs the many many other Linux "standards" that are also now coming to the market? And if Palm goes their own way with their own more POS-like Linux, how will that change their isolation in the market. They will in effect be a proprietary OS with only one company producing devices for it, much like Danger and the Side-kick. That does not make for a viable platform for business.

    There is no doubt that Linux itself is coming on very strong, and have already taken a huge chunk of market share. However these devices are usually mutually incompatible, and have not really made a platform. The only platform in the market where you can move software from one hardware manufacturer to another is Windows Mobile. They other contenders are either too fragmented (Linux and Symbian) or are poorly supported by other OEM's (POS).

    Yes, Win Mobile is incredibly unpolished. Funnily enough I dont see this improving much in the future either. I however expect a further expansion in hardware available to me with great features (e.g. small size, digital TV, high resolution screens, huge storage, navigation etc etc), without me having to give up my software library. That would be my definition of a living growing platform. Compared to this POS is moribund, if not dead already.

    Surur
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    If ACCESS produces the holy grail of mobile OS's mid 2007 it is likely not to have much effect on their fortunes. ALP will run POS software, but the UI will not look very Palm-like at all. Why would anyone use their version of Linux vs the many many other Linux "standards" that are also now coming to the market? And if Palm goes their own way with their own more POS-like Linux, how will that change their isolation in the market. They will in effect be a proprietary OS with only one company producing devices for it, much like Danger and the Side-kick. That does not make for a viable platform for business.
    Surur
    The reason to pick their Linux OS is taht a real company is behind it with years of experience in the PDa / Phone marketplace; just like Apple is doing in the desktop OS market. There is very little cost in the phone marketplace for switching, unlike in the desktop.

    here is one significant difference in the phone market vs the desktop - most users do not need any additional programs for the device to be useful. With teh exception of a solid email app that works with exchange a Treo meets mostuser needs out of teh box; and there are several 3rd party apps that turn it into a Blackberry like device - which are generally installed by a company's IT - and I'm sure Palm will continue to offer and expand that type of connectivity.

    In the end, even backwards compatibility is not that critical for most users. If it was, people wouldn't migrate from a Razor to a Q to a 700. They want a phone that works and maybe gets emails - and maybe the hot phone for bragging rights.
  12. #32  
    Compatability may not be an issue very much in the general consumer market, but for businesses with vertical applications it certainly is, and with software like slingbox it will also become an increasing issue for consumers.

    Surur
  13. #33  
    Hehe...this discussion actually makes me wonder, how does a supposedly "dead" platform like the PalmOS STILL beat the latest and greatest platform, WM5?

    If you can answer that, you'll know exactly why many people have migrated from their 6700's to the treo. As far as a dead platform, it's a pretty good bet that palm will do the linux thing with an emulation layer for older PRCs like someone mentioned. It would be following in apple's footsteps almost exactly, and just look at how beautiful OS X is right now.
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       #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by Merlyn_3D
    Hehe...this discussion actually makes me wonder, how does a supposedly "dead" platform like the PalmOS STILL beat the latest and greatest platform, WM5?

    If you can answer that, you'll know exactly why many people have migrated from their 6700's to the treo. As far as a dead platform, it's a pretty good bet that palm will do the linux thing with an emulation layer for older PRCs like someone mentioned. It would be following in apple's footsteps almost exactly, and just look at how beautiful OS X is right now.
    The entire reason I started this thread was reading some comments from Mapopolis staff about how they were looking long and hard about whether or not to continue releasing software for a "dead" OS. If other vendors feel that way than new apps could dry up. Of course the phone and all the software currently out will continue to work just fine. But something like GPS software which needs to be constantly updated just got me thinking about the future. Of course, when my two year commitment is up I'll probably buy the next great phone anyway - Palm or whatever else is hot at that time.
  15. #35  
    I'm not too worried. It does what I need for it to do well. If and when I'm bored with it, I'll find something that meet my needs at that point.
  16. #36  
    I thought POS was dead until I used WM5 and realized MS has a ways to go.

    Neither platform is very good, but for now, I prefer POS.
    A new Avatar to commemorate Silly Season.
  17. xtant21's Avatar
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    #37  
    I know POS and WM5 (WM Smartphone edition too) are the leading choices in smartphones. However, they really aren't comparable...it's an apples to oranges comparison. Right now today, WM5 is the Linux (don't hate me yet) of the smartphone world. If you want full control of your device and be truly able to leave the laptop at home and have all of the super-power user tools at your disposal (terminal session, etc...) you go with WM5. Is it good as a phone? Somewhat.

    If you want ease of use...a rock solid interface that is intuitive to use (a la Mac) that you can 5-way your way through it and almost never have to touch the stylus you go with POS. Can you do the power user things? Sure...but you have to buy third party software. If you haven't been buying third party software over time then this can get expensive and shows value in your WM5 purchase.

    Now, with POS being ported to Linux...I'm pretty sure IT will be the Linux of the smartphone world when that time comes. WM5 may be lacking at that point unless MSFT wakes up and realizes that people want a phone in their smartphone as well. Some of us believe that a smartphone is a PHONE first and a computer second.

    As skfny said...neither platform is plugging all of the holes right now. It's a choice right now of what do you want to do? POS can't handle Cellular and WiFi...so no WiFi. There's a choice. WM5 is horrendous at one-handed opeation; POS is amazing at it. Today it's choices...it's picking the lesser of two evils. Palm is taking it on the chin for not being more innovative and bringing the POS to a 2006 standard. 3-5 years ago POS on a Treo was cutting edge and we were in our PDA nirvana. Today WM5's functionality has stolen a little bit of thunder and eaten away at POS with it's built-in capabilities. MSFT needs to stop worrying about functionality now and worry about tweaking it for ease-of-use. POS needs keep the ease of use and worry about adding some functionality.

    This is apples and oranges today people. I can't wait for ALPS and then be able to compare apples and apples.
    Beware the lollipop of mediocrity...lick it once and you suck forever!
  18. Chazzan's Avatar
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    #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by xtant21
    I know POS and WM5 (WM Smartphone edition too) are the leading choices in smartphones. However, they really aren't comparable...it's an apples to oranges comparison. Right now today, WM5 is the Linux (don't hate me yet) of the smartphone world. If you want full control of your device and be truly able to leave the laptop at home and have all of the super-power user tools at your disposal (terminal session, etc...) you go with WM5. Is it good as a phone? Somewhat.

    If you want ease of use...a rock solid interface that is intuitive to use (a la Mac) that you can 5-way your way through it and almost never have to touch the stylus you go with POS. Can you do the power user things? Sure...but you have to buy third party software. If you haven't been buying third party software over time then this can get expensive and shows value in your WM5 purchase.

    Now, with POS being ported to Linux...I'm pretty sure IT will be the Linux of the smartphone world when that time comes. WM5 may be lacking at that point unless MSFT wakes up and realizes that people want a phone in their smartphone as well. Some of us believe that a smartphone is a PHONE first and a computer second.

    As skfny said...neither platform is plugging all of the holes right now. It's a choice right now of what do you want to do? POS can't handle Cellular and WiFi...so no WiFi. There's a choice. WM5 is horrendous at one-handed opeation; POS is amazing at it. Today it's choices...it's picking the lesser of two evils. Palm is taking it on the chin for not being more innovative and bringing the POS to a 2006 standard. 3-5 years ago POS on a Treo was cutting edge and we were in our PDA nirvana. Today WM5's functionality has stolen a little bit of thunder and eaten away at POS with it's built-in capabilities. MSFT needs to stop worrying about functionality now and worry about tweaking it for ease-of-use. POS needs keep the ease of use and worry about adding some functionality.

    This is apples and oranges today people. I can't wait for ALPS and then be able to compare apples and apples.
    Very well said.
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by skfny
    I thought POS was dead until I used WM5 and realized MS has a ways to go.

    Neither platform is very good, but for now, I prefer POS.
    I think that's the way that many people who switched to WM5 felt after getting there. The annoyances are small and subtle, but there are many.

    xtant21, good post.
    ---
    iPhone / Samsung Epix

    Current playtoys:
    Also: Treo 750 (Test phone) / Sony Ericcson w900 (unlocked for international travel)
  20. hkklife's Avatar
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    #40  
    Can someone provide a link to where TomTom said (or was rumored) to be ceasing development of their Palm OS Navigator software?

    I have a BT GPS receiver and TT 5.201 on my 700P and love it aside from the occasional crash when loading up a new address. Then there's the really aggravating reset loop that occurs when you load TT with BT turned off and say "yes" and let it turn BT on for you. Turning BT on prior to launching the app remedies that problem but it's still very annoying.

    I just hope that all of the major apps & newer games I use see at least one more update to bring them up to 700P compliance. I've sort of figured on the 700P being my final "classic" Palm OS device. I've gotten my list of "must have" titles down to a few handfulls of programs and I am really loathe to give any of them up at this stage of the game.

    Agreed that the 700P, especially after Palm gets out a ROM update or two for it and the develop community has caught up with its quirks, is the best smartphone on the market right now and likely for the next 12 months. Past that it's anyone's game.
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