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  1.    #1  
    I'm getting annoyed reading all of these posts from Palm apologists who suggest that there is nothing wrong with the Treo 700p and all the problems are the fault of the application vendors. It's like this forum is filled with under-cover Palm employees or investors trying to gloss over the glaring defects in their product. Or maybe it's just people who don't want to admit that they got suckered into paying a premium price for an inferior product. Here is my response to them (from another thread):

    Why should I have to buy new versions of or update all of my current software just because I bought a newer Treo?

    What if a computer manufacturer sold you a new model computer with Windows XP service pack 2 to replace your 1.5 year old computer with Windows XP service pack 1 (older version of same model from the same manufacturer) that was supposed to be faster and better? Would you expect to have to buy new software?

    Would you say it's OK if you were told that the new computer had twice as much memory as the old but you found out that while it has more memory you can't actually load programs into it without the computer crashing or slowing down dramatically?

    Would you say it's OK if you were told that you couldn't run your copy of Microsoft Office 2003 without crashing and you'll have to purchase an update to Office 2007 when it comes out to fix it? And the same for the rest of you software?

    Would you say it's OK if basic operations that worked on the old computer like being able to play music in the background while doing other things did not work on the new computer?

    Would you say it's OK if the manufacturer choreographed and scripted reviews of the new computer told you it was faster and more stable than the previous version even when it's cleary demostrable by benchmarks that it's not?

    I'm sick and tired of all these Palm apologists saying there's nothing wrong with the 700p when there clearly is. The 700p has some very serious defects that Palm either knew about or definitely should have. You expect me to believe that Palm didn't run any benchmarks or try to use the built-in music player under normal end-user conditions? If a computer manufacturer shipped a computer with these types of defects they'd be looking at a class-action lawsuit in very short order. Let's hope Palm is able to address these issues before it comes to that.

    Honestly, I love the idea of having a Palm smartphone. However, if I paid this kind of money ($650) for an upgrade, it better be an upgrade rather than a major step backward in critical areas.
  2. #2  
    Then you read the "review" posted on TreoCentral and find that it's just one big Palm-slurping session.

    It's clear that the 700p is better than the 650 in some ways and worse in other ways. That doesn't sound like much of an upgrade to me either.
  3. #3  
    It's all very subjective. I agree that there are some problems and the 700p is not perfect but the problems just aren't that big a deal to me. I like the faster data and more memory. The fact that Verichat doesn't work and that there is a small lag when I switch to some apps just doesn't bug me. If I shutdown Chatter, Ptunes does not skip and that is a compromise that I am fine with. For the 40 minute busride home, I don't care about whether my boss can instantly send me an email. Again, it's all subjective. For some people, the things I mentioned are a big deal and they have every right to complain. Just don't label me a Palm apologist for liking my new 700p despite its issues.
  4. fmcgirt's Avatar
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    #4  
    clipcarl,

    For most of those things you mentioned that is exactly what desktop computer advertising claims and requires and in a lot of cases the buyers and users must complete the beta testing after the sale to get the advertised benefits. I really don't think that we should expect anything better to happen in the case of converged devices. I have said for years that something is wrong when I can buy a new computer product and after a few minutes or even an hour of use find something that was not tested properly before the sale and therefore doesn't work right. And I do it to myself because I like to get the new stuff early and discover its capabilities. The 700p is no different than the 700W, 650, 600, KJAM, JAMin, Q, etc., etc. It is just the way things are and will be until we all decide to wait until the stuff is ready before buying. Why should it matter to the manufacturers how much something that doesn't work cost when we all seem to keep buying it? To them it is all a tradeoff between a proper alpha/beta test period and a push to market - nothing more.

    Frank
  5. #5  
    Kudos to you Clip. I'm really glad someone here had the courage to write what you did. The 700p is a good phone, but there are some problems with it that I didn't expect to have. The slowness of it is killing me. Takes some time to get used to. However I do love the new internet speeds.
    Back to your post though, there does seem to be alot of people here that makes excuses for palm and why the treo is still great even after having some problems that the 650 didn't have. But at the end of the day, its us fools who get caught up in the hype and have to buy one the week it comes out. So were the Beta testers. Thats life in the fast lane I guess.
    What is disappointing though is not being able to discuss these problems freely on these forums without someone being a jerk, calling the poster names, or just telling him if he doesn't like it don't buy it. We all know what our options are. The point of forums to me though are to be able to express your frustration, or look for help. Or just ***** if thats what you want to do. Ofcourse maybe I'm completly wrong.
  6. fmcgirt's Avatar
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    #6  
    Quote Originally Posted by hernandezjc11
    Kudos to you Clip. I'm really glad someone here had the courage to write what you did. The 700p is a good phone, but there are some problems with it that I didn't expect to have. The slowness of it is killing me. Takes some time to get used to. However I do love the new internet speeds.
    Back to your post though, there does seem to be alot of people here that makes excuses for palm and why the treo is still great even after having some problems that the 650 didn't have. But at the end of the day, its us fools who get caught up in the hype and have to buy one the week it comes out. So were the Beta testers. Thats life in the fast lane I guess.
    What is disappointing though is not being able to discuss these problems freely on these forums without someone being a jerk, calling the poster names, or just telling him if he doesn't like it don't buy it. We all know what our options are. The point of forums to me though are to be able to express your frustration, or look for help. Or just ***** if thats what you want to do. Ofcourse maybe I'm completly wrong.
    Very good points. In most cases I think it is the frustration coming out. Unfortunately, having had these problems with several PDAs and now smartphones, I have never seen even one example where this frustration has encouraged the manufacturer to do things better. It just doesn't seem to matter so as we both said I think the only way to get things changed is to vote with our $$$. For me to do that I need to be able to practice a little more restraint when new stuff comes out.

    Frank

  7. #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by clipcarl
    ... Or maybe it's just people who don't want to admit that they got suckered into paying a premium price for an inferior product...
    Um... I got mine free (well, almost free, $18 update charge and $12 shipping

    Quote Originally Posted by clipcarl
    I'm getting annoyed
    That's OK, be annoyed. Be very annoyed.
  8. #8  
    I am not a Palm apologist! Maybe a loyalist.
    But I love the Treo line! This is what early adopters experience on EVERY new device. Name me one Treo that didn't have firmware updates. You're right - It's OK to be angry and voice your opinion. This way the manufacturer is always forced into improving the device. Remember the 650? - I skipped this because of all the bugs reported when Palm decided to appease the masses with NVFS. This was to address complaints about data loss in Palm devices (though I never lost my data - actually wish they left the old but fast file system alone). So they DO listen. Keep on griping - if sales start declining, they will be forced to release a firmware update sooner than later. I have complaints with my 700P coming from a fast and stable 600 (non NVFS). But I could live with it for now because I expect an update just like all my devices before. It's all good.
    Palm III > Palm V > Palm Vx > (Sprint) Kyo 6035 > Handspring Treo 300
    > Handspring Treo 600 Oct.'03 > Palm Treo 700P May'06 > Treo 755P Aug.'07 > Pre(-) June'09 + TouchPad July'11 LONG LIVE webOS!!!
  9. akula34's Avatar
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    #9  
    It's only a phone. Put a little perspective on it. Why don't you donate that $650 to some worthy charity or family in need? That'd buy quite a few stuffed animals for needy children.

    Don't like it, don't buy it. That's capitalism.
    "Only the dead have seen the end of war" - Plato
  10. #10  
    The reason we got the firmware update on the 650 that resolved memory usage problems is because WALL STREET GOT WIND OF IT! If the problem is shown to impact their stock price, Palm will bring out an update more quickly -- at least that's my guess. Now is the time to email equity analysts that cover Palm's stock and inform them of this problem!
  11. #11  
    While I'm mostly happy with my 700P there are times that I look over at my 600 (yes Treo 600 thats not a typo) and think about switching back.
  12. #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by cruelpupet
    While I'm mostly happy with my 700P there are times that I look over at my 600 (yes Treo 600 thats not a typo) and think about switching back.
    I keep my Treo 600 with me (in my bag) as well since I have not deactiveated it yet. Let it home yesterday and my battery died on my 700p.
    Still prefer the 700p though.
    Palm Pilot-->Palm III-->Palm IIIc-->Palm 505-->Palm 515-->Sprint Treo 600--> soon: Sprint Treo 700P
  13.    #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by fmcgirt
    clipcarl,

    For most of those things you mentioned that is exactly what desktop computer advertising claims and requires and in a lot of cases the buyers and users must complete the beta testing after the sale to get the advertised benefits. I really don't think that we should expect anything better to happen in the case of converged devices. I have said for years that something is wrong when I can buy a new computer product and after a few minutes or even an hour of use find something that was not tested properly before the sale and therefore doesn't work right. And I do it to myself because I like to get the new stuff early and discover its capabilities. The 700p is no different than the 700W, 650, 600, KJAM, JAMin, Q, etc., etc. It is just the way things are and will be until we all decide to wait until the stuff is ready before buying. Why should it matter to the manufacturers how much something that doesn't work cost when we all seem to keep buying it? To them it is all a tradeoff between a proper alpha/beta test period and a push to market - nothing more.

    Frank
    I agree with you about what you say about desktop computers. And I do expect those type of rough edges on this type of device to a degree as well. What I don't expect is that basic features don't work as they're supposed to. It's ridiculous that a $650 device that's supposed to play music can't do it without skipping so much that it's unlistenable. Just now I had to make a phone call but my bluetooth headset stopped working. I had to spend 10 minutes diagnosing the problem and trying unsuccessfully to get the phone to repair the problem until finally I just had to reset it to get it to work! That's not reasonable.
  14. #14  
    I can play music in the background just fine. Most of my software works just fine. My 700p is faster in every way than my 650p was. Navigating around the menus and between apps is noticeably faster as is the EVDO connection, of course.

    Sure we can't really use all of the 128MB in the phone, but I was getting by with the 32MB I had in the Treo 650. My needs haven't changed and I have more than twice as much RAM as before that I can work with.

    Most of my apps made the transition transparently (Pocket Tunes, Xiino, Volume Care, Filez, etc.). Dir Asst needed updating, but that's done. Verichat needs updating. I'm not pleased with the Verichat developers. Like you said, the OS hasn't changed. Any updates should be simple and free and should have been available at launch. It's not as if they didn't know the phone was coming.

    But the central premise of your chat (as I saw it).. that the 700p is slower and largely incompatible with the older software... That hasn't been the case for me at all.

    I've heard other say that their 700p's are slow. I've also heard others whose experience has been like mine. I wonder if you didn't just get lemons that you could return for fully functional models.
  15. #15  
    Sorry guys - I can't agree. Three words for you - 3rd Party Software!

    How can you say that Palm is responsible for making sure that thousands of 3rd party apps that people cook up in thier basements run flawlessly and without conflict. Most 3rd party windows software needs to be updated when the OS changes. The stuff they pre-load on the 700p works.

    Return it if you're not happy - or wait until it's working to your expectations before you buy.

    It's not perfect - but I'd rather have it now than wait another 6 months until it is...
  16.    #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by ChemEngr
    I am not a Palm apologist! Maybe a loyalist.
    But I love the Treo line! This is what early adopters experience on EVERY new device. Name me one Treo that didn't have firmware updates. You're right - It's OK to be angry and voice your opinion. This way the manufacturer is always forced into improving the device. Remember the 650? - I skipped this because of all the bugs reported when Palm decided to appease the masses with NVFS. This was to address complaints about data loss in Palm devices (though I never lost my data - actually wish they left the old but fast file system alone). So they DO listen. Keep on griping - if sales start declining, they will be forced to release a firmware update sooner than later. I have complaints with my 700P coming from a fast and stable 600 (non NVFS). But I could live with it for now because I expect an update just like all my devices before. It's all good.
    Yeah, I remember the 650. It had three major problems when it first came out: Bluetooth sucked, it wasn't as memory efficient as it should have been and battery life was very poor. All those things are a nuisance but didn't affect the core usability of the product. However, the 700p is different: the core functionality in a lot of cases is not usable. You can't load apps to take advantage of the increased memory without crashes and slowdowns and even the built-in apps often don't work right. For instance, every time I try to use "On Demand" it white-screens and I have to reset. The ability to play music is a core functionality and I should not have to carry a separate ipod because this $650 device can't manage to play music without skipping. I don't know why I ever bother to put the battery cover back on because I have to keep taking it back off because of all the resetting I'm forced to do. And at least with the 650 there was a good excuse: the move to NVFS really was a big deal and a major change.

    I paid to buy a finished product. Of course I expect some issues when I buy something new but this is beyond reasonable.
  17. #17  
    I think some people here are missing the point of this thread. I don't think it was meant to be another Whats wrong with the 700P now kind of thread. I think its about the way we express whats wrong in these forums, and the type of responses to them. Statments like "Get a life" accompish nothing here. We all know what we can do with our money. Its called Free Will. The problem is why do certain posters insist on supporting Palm when they know that the treo product isn't working as it should? Brand Loyalty? Ok I can buy that. But Blind Loyalty is just stupid.
  18.    #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by akula34
    It's only a phone. Put a little perspective on it. Why don't you donate that $650 to some worthy charity or family in need? That'd buy quite a few stuffed animals for needy children.

    Don't like it, don't buy it. That's capitalism.
    Maybe that's "capitalism", but suing companies that deliver defective products is the "American Way!" ;-)
  19.    #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by TREOpalooza
    The reason we got the firmware update on the 650 that resolved memory usage problems is because WALL STREET GOT WIND OF IT! If the problem is shown to impact their stock price, Palm will bring out an update more quickly -- at least that's my guess. Now is the time to email equity analysts that cover Palm's stock and inform them of this problem!
    Or everyone who has problems with the 700p should go to these launch parties that Palm is having to make their dissatisfaction loud and clear in a public forum. That's why I'm going to the San Francisco launch party tomorrow.
  20. fmcgirt's Avatar
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    #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by clipcarl
    I agree with you about what you say about desktop computers. And I do expect those type of rough edges on this type of device to a degree as well. What I don't expect is that basic features don't work as they're supposed to. It's ridiculous that a $650 device that's supposed to play music can't do it without skipping so much that it's unlistenable. Just now I had to make a phone call but my bluetooth headset stopped working. I had to spend 10 minutes diagnosing the problem and trying unsuccessfully to get the phone to repair the problem until finally I just had to reset it to get it to work! That's not reasonable.
    No, it is not reasonable and a real headache especially for business users.

    My wish is that Palm and others would make absolutely sure that a few basic things work exactly right - like for ear piece and speaker phone volume be able to be set loud enough for 65 year old ears, approve a BT headset or two that work perfectly, provide bug free wireless and USB syncing and perhaps rigorously test all those apps included with the device. Given time I probably can think of a few more that should be included as basic things that should work perfectly. Then let us early users worry about testing the special other stuff that we each use. That way we would have a more stable base to work with. There is no reason that I should have to buy VolumeCare for my 650 or 700p to have enough volume. It should be a fundamental part of the OS. However if wishes were horses....

    Frank
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