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  1. #61  
    Well I think the only reason we are even talking about Treos today is the fact that the fundamentals were fairly solid to begin with, and any sort of upgrade or update that compromises these fundamentals could be the beginning of the end for the Treo line. That having been said, I think that Palm's lack of innovation has mostly been motivated by complaceny and possibly some laziness.

    I agree that considering it has taken two years to come out, there isn't a whole lot to show for that amount of time.

    As for the features... right now I can't see why so many people are asking for wifi when they have EVDO on the device, but maybe after using my Treo for a while I'll have a better idea why there is so much demand for this feature. I agree that the bluetooth issues should not be happening.

    Voice dialing for me is no big deal. The reason I say this is that my v600 now has voice dialing... it works 95% of the time for me in my apartment or in a office... but for me it becomes virtually useless if you try to voice dial over bluetooth in an environment with a lot of background noise (a car at freeway speeds with the A/C on, or a crowded outdoor venue). The fact that it is unreliable in the car is a major issue for me since that is one of the places it would be most useful...
  2. #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by Trevante
    One seriously has to wonder what Palm did in the time between the 650 release and the 700p release....when you consider the minimal differences between the two, it makes one think that they spent a large part of that time doing nothing...

    You are dead wrong, mister...
    in my town they must have been busy for months plastering busses and subway tunnels with POSTERS containing pictures of Treos.

    ...THAT's the kind of innovation that was sorely lacking at Handspring and the other has-beens. Oh, yeah - they also finally added a decent amount of internal memory and upgraded the radio to EVDO. It's THAT kind of radical improvement that keeps Palm leap-years ahead of anything resembling competition. Windoze and Crackberry are shaking in their boots and can't keep up!

    Look at the the massive creative changes to the Treo 600 that Palm's done in only 3 short years!... High-rez screen, removable battery, buggy RAM, schizophrenic juggling disabling and removal of critical hardware buttons...

    The build quality IS much better - though Handspring would have probably had all the *good* improvements of the 700p back in 2003 if they had the money - the technology was available then, Handspring was just starved for cash and had to sell out to Palm...

    How can you even hint that "it makes one think that they spent a large part of that time doing nothing..."? http://discussion.treocentral.com/im...s/rolleyes.gif
    Treo 755s in good condition available on ebay for $50-$75. No need to pay for insurance or buy a Pre.
  3. #63  
    LOL, Joad!
  4. #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclancy
    You should try Xiino. Worked well on the 300 and 600. I never had a 650. I think the 650 version will work with the 700.
    Thanks bclancy. I loaded it up and it seems to work very well. Is faster than Blazer and includes images unlike Eudora.
  5. #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclancy
    JuneFabrics has done this with PDAnet, for the Treo 300, 600, 650, and now the 700p. Most other vendors dont, and JuneFabrics has finally stopped charging full price for the first time with the 700p release. !
    For something hardware specific, that is new hardware requires code rewriting, I I can see a small charge for an update but no more than 25% of original proce.
  6. #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by clipcarl
    I dunno... Breaking just 200 out of several hundred thousand Windows programs sounds like pretty good compatibility to me...
    Several hundred thousand ? List em.

    Let's get real. We ain't talking marginal stuff here, we talkin major commercial releases like AutoCAD, Adobe PhotoShop. Entire workplaces.....engineering firms, print shops were shut down, paying employees to sit there and twiddle their thumbs while workarounds were determined. And now we have the "genuine advantage program phoning home every day and shutting legitimte licensees down by mistake....MS's solution....reinstall the OS.


    Using your argument I could say "the 5 programs listed as incompatable with Palm 700p out of hundreds of thousands of programs seems pretty good compatability to me"
  7.    #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by ajabbari
    Although in reality it is, in the end, just a phone/organizer and the only really critical functions are the phone, the PIM functions, the email, and the Internet. As long as those work well it will never be a total dissaster as far as the average Joe smartphone user is concerned.
    I disagree. Nobody pays this kind of money just for a phone with PIM functions and internet. You could get that for less than $100. People pay this kind of money for a computer (PDA). So you have to add being able to reliably install and run software onto the critical function list. Also nobody pays this kind of money and expects to have to carry around a second device to play their music; Palm recognizes this and that's why they ship the 700p with stereo headphones. So being able to play your music reliably also has to be added to the critical functions list.

    Right now the 700p can't handle either of those critical functions. This is inexcusable because they are core functions of the device. Nobody wants a computer with lots of memory on which you can't reliably install and run programs. Nobody wants a media player that skips regularly when playing music. It's also inexcusable because despite the new 1xEV radio the 700p is a very small and incremental upgrade to the 650 which was able to do both things very well. How Palm managed to break core functionality this badly in a relatively minor update is beyond me.

    I am not upset that the 700p doesn't have more new and differenting features. I am upset that some of the core features it does have don't work. I'm not even that upset about other stuff like bluetooth and battery problems. I can suffer through that and wait for a fix.
  8.    #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    Using your argument I could say "the 5 programs listed as incompatable with Palm 700p out of hundreds of thousands of programs seems pretty good compatability to me"
    First, there aren't several hundred thousand Palm apps.

    If you blame the third party apps for the slowdown and problems of the 700p then we are talking way more than 5. PocketTunes skips? Blame them not Palm! Add them to the list! Same thing for AeroPlayer, TCPMP and any other media player that skips! It doesn't matter that they all work perfectly on the 650 and any other PalmOS5 device! It's their fault not Palm's! Loading FieldPlus slows down the 700p? It's their fault not Palms! McPhling? Ditto! Same for every other app that causes any kind of slowdown! Sure they work fine on most any other PalmOS5 devices, but it's the fault of those evil software companies that it slows down the 700p! Any application that uses the "hede" notification? What were they thinking? How dare they use a published well-known API! You shouldn't be installing software on the 700p! You're only supposed to use the built in apps anyway!!!

    Oh, wait, the built in apps don't work right either.

    Newsflash folks: there's nothing wrong with those applications. There's something wrong with the 700p. Basic testing would easily have shown that the 700p computer has trouble running programs. Either Palm didn't do that basic testing or they didn't care and shipped a computer with these problems anyway. Either way it's inexcusable.
  9. #69  
    Clipcarl, I would run, not walk, to whereever you bought yours, and return it immediately. As you said, those things that Palm have done are inexcusable (for you).

    For me, I find the 700P acceptable at this point in time, and will keep mine.
  10. #70  
    Dont get Me wrong , I'm not defending anyone .. BUT You must not be Old Enough to remember the start of the Personal Computer World Where Little Companies Like Apple ( And Others less Noteable ) Did Exactlly what You Eluded to IE: New Computer Model Required Purchasing ALL new Software

    Quote Originally Posted by clipcarl
    I'm getting annoyed reading all of these posts from Palm apologists who suggest that there is nothing wrong with the Treo 700p and all the problems are the fault of the application vendors. It's like this forum is filled with under-cover Palm employees or investors trying to gloss over the glaring defects in their product. Or maybe it's just people who don't want to admit that they got suckered into paying a premium price for an inferior product. Here is my response to them (from another thread):

    Why should I have to buy new versions of or update all of my current software just because I bought a newer Treo?

    What if a computer manufacturer sold you a new model computer with Windows XP service pack 2 to replace your 1.5 year old computer with Windows XP service pack 1 (older version of same model from the same manufacturer) that was supposed to be faster and better? Would you expect to have to buy new software?

    Would you say it's OK if you were told that the new computer had twice as much memory as the old but you found out that while it has more memory you can't actually load programs into it without the computer crashing or slowing down dramatically?

    Would you say it's OK if you were told that you couldn't run your copy of Microsoft Office 2003 without crashing and you'll have to purchase an update to Office 2007 when it comes out to fix it? And the same for the rest of you software?

    Would you say it's OK if basic operations that worked on the old computer like being able to play music in the background while doing other things did not work on the new computer?

    Would you say it's OK if the manufacturer choreographed and scripted reviews of the new computer told you it was faster and more stable than the previous version even when it's cleary demostrable by benchmarks that it's not?

    I'm sick and tired of all these Palm apologists saying there's nothing wrong with the 700p when there clearly is. The 700p has some very serious defects that Palm either knew about or definitely should have. You expect me to believe that Palm didn't run any benchmarks or try to use the built-in music player under normal end-user conditions? If a computer manufacturer shipped a computer with these types of defects they'd be looking at a class-action lawsuit in very short order. Let's hope Palm is able to address these issues before it comes to that.

    Honestly, I love the idea of having a Palm smartphone. However, if I paid this kind of money ($650) for an upgrade, it better be an upgrade rather than a major step backward in critical areas.
  11. #71  
    I agree on complacency They have a monopoly on the palm pda phone market since samsung backed out and sold its rights to LG. LG hasn't done anything as of yet (that has been announced or leaked). So it's easy to string your customers along when there is no competition. And yes I know people can switch to a different OS, but for those that are loyal, the Treo is the only game in town. I'm still routing for LG.
    Pixi: Sold. Pre: Passed off to another rep. Touchpad: Just a toy until Cloud syncing arrives, and a better doc editor.
  12.    #72  
    Quote Originally Posted by Barney
    Dont get Me wrong , I'm not defending anyone .. BUT You must not be Old Enough to remember the start of the Personal Computer World Where Little Companies Like Apple ( And Others less Noteable ) Did Exactlly what You Eluded to IE: New Computer Model Required Purchasing ALL new Software
    I'm definitely old enough... I did a bit of 6502 assembly language programming on those Apples. And you are wrong; the Apple II, Apple II+, IIe and IIc all could run the same programs (as long as you had enough memory, etc.). Heck, even the IIGS could run a lot of those programs and that machine was completely different. The Treo 650 is much closer to the 700p than any of those machines were to each other. As for the other machines of the era, the Commodore 64 could run the same programs as the 128 (non CPM mode) and the Atari 400, 800, 600XL, 800XL, 1200XL, 65XE and 130XE could all run the same programs so you remember things a little differently than I.
  13. #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by clipcarl
    ... the Commodore 64 could run the same programs as the 128 (non CPM mode) and the Atari 400, 800, 600XL, 800XL, 1200XL, 65XE and 130XE could all run the same programs so you remember things a little differently than I.
    Uhuh Clip, not totally true. ALL of the computers you mentioned had issues as new versions came out. I'll deal specifically with the Atari lineup, since I used to own a computer store that was an Atari dealership.

    When Atari sold/shipped the 400/800 series, they specifically mentioned that programmers were not to write to page 6 memory locations. Also graphics calls were to be done a certain way (it's been so long, I don't remember the exact wording, I was a tech/salesman, not a programmer). Programmers discovered that they could save memory (at a premium back in those days) by breaking the page 6 memory rule. They also discovered they could speed up some of their games by writing directly to the graphics chip, instead of using what would today be called an API.

    Then along came the XL series. Most of those programs (that "cheated")didn't work anymore, because Atari chose to change things in the memory locations they said not to use. The graphics chip changed as well, so programs that wrote directly to it failed also. In addition, there were even devices that required the two cartridge slots (and one device that I sold that was a single device, but was required to be in the second slot) which no longer existed outside of the 800.

    I see some of the same sort of things with the Treo, but slightly different scenarios. Again, I'm not a programmer, but my understanding is that when they went to OS5 and changed out the processor, they began running an emulator for the old system. As most folks know, such things introduce new problems.

    Please, this is not comparing one model car to another. When you change out parts of the guts of a device as complicated as these phones/computers/internet devices, there are going to be problems. How well a company deals with those problems will play a large part in determining their future. To date, I think Palm's done a decent job. Not outstanding, but decent.

    To me though, the biggest problem with your rants on here is that it seems if someone doesn't agree with your assessment, they're dead wrong (or work for Palm, or are apologisits, or whatever). If you're dissatisfied, then I would really suggest you return it and find a device that does your blood pressure and peace of mind a better turn. But PLEASE, allow those of us that are comfortable with the postition that Palm, and WE, have placed ourselves in to be content without the accusations.
  14. #74  
    ^especially if my 700P's core apps are working just fine. Very eloquent post BTW.

    IMO, comparisons to the 650 (which I bypassed) is apples to oranges. You're precisely right that the EVDO radio brings up several issues with FrankenGarnet.

    Clip, your 700P might be defective.
    Last edited by ChemEngr; 06/14/2006 at 04:46 PM.
    Palm III > Palm V > Palm Vx > (Sprint) Kyo 6035 > Handspring Treo 300
    > Handspring Treo 600 Oct.'03 > Palm Treo 700P May'06 > Treo 755P Aug.'07 > Pre(-) June'09 + TouchPad July'11 LONG LIVE webOS!!!
  15. #75  
    Once again, I admit I love my Treo. But to say that it is a descent phone is an overstatement as well. The very basics of the basics, sound quality is better than it was, but has always been lousy compared to other phones.
  16.    #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons
    ...
    To me though, the biggest problem with your rants on here is that it seems if someone doesn't agree with your assessment, they're dead wrong (or work for Palm, or are apologisits, or whatever). If you're dissatisfied, then I would really suggest you return it and find a device that does your blood pressure and peace of mind a better turn. But PLEASE, allow those of us that are comfortable with the postition that Palm, and WE, have placed ourselves in to be content without the accusations.
    Obviously, any conclusions I draw are my own opinion. People are free to disagree with me over whether or not the problems with the 700p are acceptable or not. I did not mean to imply that if anyone doesn't agree with me about what is an acceptable amount or type of issues with the 700p then they are wrong. For those types of questions there is no "right" or "wrong" for everyone. Each person makes their own standard about what is acceptable to them. What I'm actually trying to do here is not to tell anyone they're wrong if they're perfectly happy with the 700p the way it is but to express my believe (and many other peoples', apparently) that the defects in the 700p have crossed a line about what is acceptable. Most importantly, I'm trying to keep the debate going so that Palm can very easily see that they have some very dissatisfied customer's so perhaps they will address these issues more quickly / decisively then they might otherwise. That benefits everyone. If I have made anyone feel that their opinion is about what is acceptable is not as valid as my own, then I sincerely apologize.

    On the other hand, if someone says something that is factually or historically incorrect I will correct them. For example, Barney said:

    "...Little Companies Like Apple ( And Others less Noteable ) Did Exactlly what You Eluded to IE: New Computer Model Required Purchasing ALL new Software"

    That simply is not true as a general statement. You correctly pointed out there are some instances where programs did not work properly on the newer models but in the vast majority of cases they did.

    Some have tried to assert that the general case for Palm applications is that they are written to target a specific model of device only. I.e., that one should not expect an app to run on the 700p unless it is specifically designed or updated to run on the 700p. As a general rule, that is false. While you can find specific apps that are really designed for just one particular device for the most part they are written to the PalmOS5 API and as a general rule you expect them to run properly on any PalmOS5 device. That's just the way it is and historically the way it has always been. If someone suggests otherwise then they are wrong and I will point it out.
  17.    #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by ChemEngr
    ^especially if my 700P's core apps are working just fine. Very eloquent post BTW.
    And for me that's the rub. In my opinion, if I can't play music without it skipping or run even the built-in apps with facing frequent long pauses, resets or the white-screen-of-death then things are not "just fine." But that's just my opionion!

    I agree. hparsons' post was very eloquent!

    Quote Originally Posted by ChemEngr
    IMO, comparisons to the 650 (which I bypassed) is apples to oranges. You're precisely right that the EVDO radio brings up several issues with FrankenGarnet.
    I respectfully disagree. Most of the apps that seem to be having problems don't even use the radio. Generally, the OS5 API abstracts away the difference between the two radios so even applications that do use the network neither know nor care that the radio changed. The situation really is analogous to changing the network card in your desktop computer. You don't need new applications and your web browser will still work fine.

    Based on my experience, I believe that comparing the 650 to the 700p is very justified. They are so similar the 700p IMHO doesn't even deserve a new model number. It really could have been called the 650X!

    Quote Originally Posted by ChemEngr
    Clip, your 700P might be defective.
    The thought had occured to me, but it seems unlikely because so many others are having the same problems.
  18. #78  
    It is very obvious that the EVDO radio is using more resources that FrankenGarnet is not able to manage well (at the moment) which could explain the lags etc. Palm took a long time to get EVDO to work on FrankenGarnet - this tweaking of the OS might be causing issues in other apps. It could be underpowered to handle the new radio. An update is forthcoming surely, but not sure if it will address all the issues. JMHO.
    Palm III > Palm V > Palm Vx > (Sprint) Kyo 6035 > Handspring Treo 300
    > Handspring Treo 600 Oct.'03 > Palm Treo 700P May'06 > Treo 755P Aug.'07 > Pre(-) June'09 + TouchPad July'11 LONG LIVE webOS!!!
  19. #79  
    Clip Carl I agree completely! I could not have said it better myself. All these reviews ae BS to say the least. Sucking off Palm so the reviewer will get cred. THIS IS NOT SUBJECTIVE. Go to palm.com & compare the 650 & 700. It is CLEAR on their own website that this is not a sifnificant upgrade!!!
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    #80  
    Quote Originally Posted by ChemEngr
    It is very obvious that the EVDO radio is using more resources that FrankenGarnet is not able to manage well (at the moment) which could explain the lags etc.
    Why is it obviously the radio and not the memory? I don't notice a speed increase when i shut down the radio and switch apps.
    Visor --> Visor Platinum --> Treo 300 --> Treo 600 --> Treo 650 --> Treo 700p --> Treo 755p --> Treo 800w --> Palm Pre
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