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  1. slthree's Avatar
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    #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by akula34
    Wow... someone has no idea how Lithium Ion batteries work. Li-Ion batteries have no memory, meaning you can charge and recharge your battery at any point in the charge cycle. There are a finite number of cycles that a battery will maintain the original charge, but there is no memory that is associated with them like Nickel Metal Hydride batteries of old. Try googling Li-Ion batteries and learning something.
    Akula, you are correct, there is no memory associated with Li-Ion, meaning that it won't "remember" its mAh capacity, stopping charge at that point (why its so important to charge NiMH full first time). However, due to the nature of the Li-Ion compound, it does need to be broken in. The best analogy I can think of is with a car, it is recommended that you drive it so many miles at a certain speed before using it for high performance purposes. Lithium Ion batteries do need to be cycled a few times to be broken in, not to set a "memory."

    I find a site here (http://is.med.ohio-state.edu/policies/battery.htm), if you go to it youíll notice under the ďDoísĒ they suggest 4 cycles, I suggest 5. It's just the property of ALL charge holding material to need to be broken in to some degree. This is something that is often done for you at the factory but should always be done again. If you don't believe me, go ask a Chemist (I'm personally a Biochemist) and get their take on it
    camhabib wins! hands down. And he did it with class. Didn't even respond to being insulted and spoken down too.

    That's how its done. Win your battles with FACTS.
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by Natrix
    Guess it depends on your source, looking at some more reputable pages, they say you should not break in Li-Ion batteries. The one you linked says to break them in after talking about two different kinds of batteries. Did they mean the first type, the second type, or both types?
    Well, from my understanding of the topic, Li-Ion do not need to be specifically "broken-in" but instead "cycled." I believe the term "break-in" when referring to batteries refers to the memory of its capacity, something Li-Ion do not have. In this sense, no, you do not need to do that. But they do need to be "cycled" as any battery does, to get the chemical material used to holding a charge and letting go of that charge.
  3. #23  
    I use hi capacity li-ion and li-po's in several applications and never had to cycle one. you don't want the voltage to drop below a certain point and there is no need to cycle. Check out some of the places that sell battery packs for r/c applications and see what they say.
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by merlin3
    I use hi capacity li-ion and li-po's in several applications and never had to cycle one. you don't want the voltage to drop below a certain point and there is no need to cycle. Check out some of the places that sell battery packs for r/c applications and see what they say.
    Well thatís where I originally got the suggestion to do so. I used to race R/C cars, which was my first experience with Li-Ions, and was told by several well established racers (who had battery charging equipment worth more then my entire car) that they found the battery to perform better after doing a few cycles. Again, as I previously said, this is often done for you at the factory, but it canít hurt to do it again before making a judgment on the life of the battery. Whether the few extra cycles will increase 5 seconds or 5 hours, I'm not sure, but the battery will improve. The performance of a battery models a normal bell curve, from my understanding. After a certain amount of uses it reaches its maximum performance, and after, it begins to decline.
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by Sodiumlake
    What launcher is that you are using? Looks nice
    That would be the very awesome hi-launcher. Check out how I got it hooked up on my 650:

    http://tinyurl.com/r3qeg
    Attached Images Attached Images
    My Freebie Java Widgets (Compatible with 650, 680, 700p & 755p)
    HourlyXCast - Hourly & 7 Day Forecasts! Weather Graphics, Radar Images & Alerts. "When 'PM Showers' just doesn't cut it"
    - RottenTomatoMeter - Movie Ratings, Reviews, Showtimes for New Movies & DVDs
    - TV2Nite - Calendar Events for your Favorite TV Shows!
  6. #26  
    When I bought my 2200 mAh battery from Lion Battery a year ago: it came with these instructions:

    FIRST, CHARGE THE BATTERY INSIDE THE TREO FOR 12 FULL HOURS TO SYNC THE BATTERY, THE TREO, AND THE CHARGING CIRCUITRY TOGETHER. THEN PREFORM 3 TO 5 FULL DISCHARGE/CHARGE CYCLES TO FULLY SET THE BATTERY'S POWER -- THEN KEEP IT TOPPED OFF AS OFTEN AS POSSIBLE TO MAINTAIN IT'S LONGEVITY.

    I would go with the prior posts that have been trying to state this.

    Cheers, Perry.

    (I went down to 5% remaining 5 times and have had excellent service from my battery after following the above instructions.)
    Last edited by gtwo; 05/27/2006 at 02:56 PM.
  7. #27  
    I will buy the bellcurve idea. It seems like that's what I usually see from batteries.
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by akula34
    Wow... someone has no idea how Lithium Ion batteries work. Li-Ion batteries have no memory, meaning you can charge and recharge your battery at any point in the charge cycle. There are a finite number of cycles that a battery will maintain the original charge, but there is no memory that is associated with them like Nickel Metal Hydride batteries of old. Try googling Li-Ion batteries and learning something.
    Thanks, you beat me to the punch. Urban legends die hard.

    Is that the Birmingham doing an emergency blow?
  9. akula34's Avatar
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    #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by slthree
    camhabib wins! hands down. And he did it with class. Didn't even respond to being insulted and spoken down too.

    That's how its done. Win your battles with FACTS.
    Here are your FACTS.... You have to visit a credible website. Not something Joe Nobody put together. You probably read tabloids and think it's news. Read this...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li-Ion
    "Only the dead have seen the end of war" - Plato
  10. #30  
    I thought I was alone here - mine drains like crazy - of course I have chatter also
    Fred
    Cingular 680
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by akula34
    Here are your FACTS.... You have to visit a credible website. Not something Joe Nobody put together. You probably read tabloids and think it's news. Read this...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li-Ion
    I find it humorous on how you lectured about a "credible website" and gave a user editable site such as Wikipedia as one. Wikipedia is not what I would call "credible" by any stretch of the imagination. I would ask if you are going to talk about a "credible" site, you provide one that everyone can agree is credible.

    Also, I read that page and no where does it mention a cycling period. It does briefly address a battery "memory" which I already agreed does not exist in Li-Ion. However, once you begin to investigate this further, I believe you will find that battery performance does indeed follow a bell curve, with cycling necessary before the full potential is reached.

    Itís a rather hard concept to grasp but cycling a Li-Ion is not the same as breaking in a NiMH. An NiMH needs to recognize its full capacity, that is why you fully charge and discharge several times. A Li-Ion needs to be cycled for the material to get used to hold and give off a charge. Others have stated they have even received instructions from the manufacturer to do this with new Li-Ion batteries.
  12. migs's Avatar
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    #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by g-funkster
    That would be the very awesome hi-launcher. Check out how I got it hooked up on my 650:

    http://tinyurl.com/r3qeg
    I thought Hi-launcher's pop-up menu would not show the apps icons? did they update it?
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by akula34
    Here are your FACTS.... You have to visit a credible website. Not something Joe Nobody put together. You probably read tabloids and think it's news. Read this...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li-Ion
    I wouldn't exactly call wikipedia credible, as anyone can post information here. However, the information on this page is correct. Running a Li battery to 0% can slowly deplete it's maximum capacity. This holds especially true for laptop batteries. Many people think of the Li batteries as being just like the NiCd batteries without the memory loss. This is true, except that while they don't have the specific "memory" problem, they do have a problem of their maximum capacity depleting faster. The majority of people don't let their products run down to zero in the first place, so they won't experience this problem as pronounced as someone who runs their product to zero often. I personally am unfortunately the latter of the two. I have a bad habit of forgetting my charger when I go somewhere and not charging before I have to leave.

    Edit:

    Woops, I forgot the part about cycling.

    Anyways, this is often done at the factory and should not be needed when you buy a product with the battery included. It's often different for separately sold batteries because of the shelf life. While this isn't a great work around, you can change the brightness of the display when you're streaming audio. I'm sure that the constant use of Ev-DO is part of the battery drainage problem.
    Last edited by OnceUponAn00b; 05/28/2006 at 01:34 AM.

    And now:
    My 700P will be better than your 700p!

    Signed,
    The n00b!

    P.s. Bow before me!

    Don't just see the n00b, be the n00b! Wait, no...
  14. kaoswlf's Avatar
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    #34  
    Tha launcher is awesome... I wants it!
  15. #35  
    Battery nerds... hehehe
  16. #36  
    I have some questions for the more knowledgeable here. To summarize:

    1) Ni-Cd - Has memory effect, so needs to be FULLY DISCHARGED and FULLY RECHARGED, EVERYTIME.

    2) Ni-MH - No memory effect, but needs to be FULLY DISCHARGED and RECHARGED the FIRST FEW TIMES as the battery needs to "know" its full potential.

    3) Li-Ion - No memory effect, but needs to be FULLY DISCHARGED and RECHARGED the FIRST FEW TIMES as the battery compounds need to be cycled to achive its full potental.

    3) After CYCLING (w/ Ni-MH and Li-Ion), one needs to charge as frequently as possible ("Topping-up") to maintain the battery capacity and potential.

    So my questions, limited to the Li-Ion type of battery as it is now the most commonly used:

    - Does one need to FULLY RECHARGE a PARTIALLY DISCHARGED battery? Does recharging from 55% to 80% and then unplugging have any effect on the life and capacity of the battery?

    - Does doing the PARTIAL DISCHARGE-RECHARGE cycle repeatedly have any effect on the battery?

    - Where does the CALIBRATION of the battery circuit come in? (mentioned several times in these forums)

    - Do PARTIAL RECHARGES "count" towards the number of cycles a battery is supposed to last? (500 cycles?)

    - A/C CHARGERs, CAR CHARGERs and USB CABLEs all charge at different rates. Does this affect the life of the Treo battery?


    mvk
    Game over!
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenHex
    - Does one need to FULLY RECHARGE a PARTIALLY DISCHARGED battery? Does recharging from 55% to 80% and then unplugging have any effect on the life and capacity of the battery?
    It isn't supposed to, but think about all the things that are supposed to work one way, that in truth work another way. What you are asking about is the "memory effect", which these batteries are not supposed to have.

    Quote Originally Posted by GreenHex
    - Does doing the PARTIAL DISCHARGE-RECHARGE cycle repeatedly have any effect on the battery?
    Yes, if you cycle often, it will limit the lifespan/capacity of the battery. Purposely "discharging" the battery isn't necessary. Feel free to use it normally however and not worry.

    Quote Originally Posted by GreenHex
    - Where does the CALIBRATION of the battery circuit come in? (mentioned several times in these forums)
    It has to deal with the ability of the particles to hold a charge. Think of it as breaking in a new pair of shoes. The first few days you have a new pair of shoes they loosen up really fast and then they plateau as far has loosening up. It's kind of along the same line. The particals must get "used" to the charging/uncharging. However, this is usually done at the factory, and shouldn't need to be done with new batteries (unless the instructions tell you to). When you receive a battery from a 3rd-party, they may not have been cycled. The reason for this is that batteries that come with your product tend to be used quickly, whereas optional 3rd-party batteries may sit on the shelf longer, as the majority of buyers will not purchase them.

    Quote Originally Posted by GreenHex
    - Do PARTIAL RECHARGES "count" towards the number of cycles a battery is supposed to last? (500 cycles?)
    This isn't an easy question to answer. A battery doesn't last a designated amount of times. The number of cycles is approximate as there is no way to predict the exact conditions in which the battery will be used. Now, any time you use the battery (charging, using for power, discharging) you limit its life. It's hard to predict exactly how much it will affect the battery life, however. Try to recharge to 100% each time, but don't worry about it if you don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by GreenHex
    - A/C CHARGERs, CAR CHARGERs and USB CABLEs all charge at different rates. Does this affect the life of the Treo battery?
    Yes and no. As far as does it affect the battery? Yes. Will you notice a huge difference? If you are using an approved charger, probably not. The reason I say approved charger is because cheap 3rd party accessories can limit the life of the battery if they aren't set to the correct specs, as well as your precious Treo.




    I hope that helps.

    And now:
    My 700P will be better than your 700p!

    Signed,
    The n00b!

    P.s. Bow before me!

    Don't just see the n00b, be the n00b! Wait, no...
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by OnceUponAn00b
    I hope that helps.
    Thanks noob... The bottomline appears to be that normal usage and
    frequent recharging is all that is required to keep things ship-shape,
    other than the inital cycling (by the manufacturer or by the user).

    The OPer's concern was the very short battery life on the Treo 700p.
    Maybe a future ROM update will fix that.

    - mvk
    Last edited by GreenHex; 05/28/2006 at 02:38 AM.
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenHex
    Thanks noob... The bottomline appears to be that normal usage and
    frequent recharging is all that is required to keep things ship-shape,
    other than the inital cycling (by the manufacturer or by the user).

    The OPer's concern was the very short battery life on the Treo 700p.
    Maybe a future ROM update will fix that.

    - mvk
    As I stated before, it's probably because of the constant Ev-DO usage that streaming audio would require. I'm sure the Ev-DO radio requires quite a lot of power. They show average talk-time, but I don't recall (correct me if I'm wrong) average Ev-DO data usage time.

    And now:
    My 700P will be better than your 700p!

    Signed,
    The n00b!

    P.s. Bow before me!

    Don't just see the n00b, be the n00b! Wait, no...
  20.    #40  
    ok so an update of my experience. yesterday (sat) was what I would consider a typical daily usage for this thing, some web use,several calls rainging from a few min to over an hour, frequent "palm" use and the battery drained to 32%. that I feel is acceptable. on the EVD0 using more battery that is not susposed to be the case, with my razr it will only discharge fast if you are on a fringe area and it it switching between 1X and EVDO if you have a good signal it should be about the same. FWIW!
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