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  1.    #1  
    How come no one has hacked a way to connect treo GPS software via the same GPS connection that 911 takes off of cellular phones? This would allow treo users to get at least limited GPS info without a GPS receiver?!?
    Thanks
    Steve
  2. #2  
    Treo has GPS?
  3. #3  
    Quote Originally Posted by Staheev
    How come no one has hacked a way to connect treo GPS software via the same GPS connection that 911 takes off of cellular phones? This would allow treo users to get at least limited GPS info without a GPS receiver?!?
    Thanks
    Steve

    interesting.............thatd be nice.......
  4. #4  
    I don't think it's as simple as that. From my time working in the telecom industry, it was explained to me that ANI (Automatic Number Identification) and ALI (Automatic Location Information) data is carried as part of the call data. The ALI is easy to determine when dealing with a landline, but much harder when dealing with a cell and even moreso when dealing with VoIP (which was the nature of the project I was working on).

    As I understood it, ALI is impossible to pinpoint exactly when dealing with a cell phone because cell towers can identify the approximate location through triangulation only. Exact coordinates are beyond the ability of cell towers (at least it was beyond their ability at the time that I was working in the industry). I was under the impression that GPS chips in phones were transmitters only, not receivers, similar to RFID tags. These GPS chips emit a signal that basically says "I'm here!", for a receiver to pick up (whether that receiver must be located in a satellite or if it can be in a cell tower is entirely beyond my knowledge), and use to identify a reasonably precise location (usually within 50 feet).

    Very rough cell phone tower triangulation primer:
    Cell towers have multiple dishes, each with an assigned landline number. Each dish covers a triangular area, roughly equal to 120 degrees out from the center of the tower. Most of these pie-shaped coverage areas overlap, and your call is processed by the tower that is closest to you, despite overlapping coverage. When a cell user dials 911, the "assigned" dish relays the call to a 911 call center, where the dish's landline number appears as ALI information (the ANI is the emetting cell's number). If the caller is unable to relay location information to the operator, it is possible to have adjacent towers search for the cell's signal, which would narrow the location down to a few blocks, but it's hardly a precise science, and nothing near as precise as TV and movies would have us believe.

    If anyone finds flaws in this post, fell free to correct them. I left them there for you to correct. I was simply seeing if you were paying attention.

    My telecommunications industry experience is now 2 years old, so who knows what has happened during that time...
  5. #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by hotbranch
    I was under the impression that GPS chips in phones were transmitters only, not receivers, similar to RFID tags. These GPS chips emit a signal that basically says "I'm here!", for a receiver to pick up

    ...If anyone finds flaws in this post, fell free to correct them. I left them there for you to correct. I was simply seeing if you were paying attention.
    Ok, here goes...

    For the cellphone to actually say "I'm here!", it needs to get that
    information from a suitable GPS infrastructure. i.e. it needs to have
    a full-fledged GPS receiver. All this, so it can figure out its location.

    I doubt any common garder-variety Treo (or any other current model
    phone) actually has this ability. Add to this the actual infrastructure
    (software, stuff...) on the carrier side to process this information.

    The triangulation technique is good enough for most law-enforcement
    purposes, I think. The police will be on you faster than you can blink.

    The GPS-HDD-Projecter-Remote-Lawn Mower thing will eventually
    happen... maybe in the Treo 908050W

    - mvk
    Game over!
  6. #6  
    On an added note, if the OPer was referring to the Triangulation
    technique for location information, I can add that though the
    information processing may be available with the carrier, making
    it available on the phone is a completely different matter.

    - mvk
    Game over!
  7. #7  
    Isn't it 'garden-variety'...?
  8. #8  
    What's being discussed isn't true GPS, it's "LBS". There is software out there which utilizes this functionality e.g. "Sprint Family Locator", for which the 650 is one of the supported phones:
    https://sfl.sprintpcs.com/finder-spr.../phoneList.htm

    So far as I know, noone has been able to hack LBS functionality to use in other applications. It's also unclear to me whether the Sprint network could keep us from obtaining the desired information to obtain this functionality, without paying an additional fee to Sprint.

    Perhaps a starting point is for one of the Treo hackers to subscribe temporarily to this service, and see what they can figure out.

    Perhaps the potential for useful applications even merits paying Sprint their $10 monthly fee.
  9. ssrjazz's Avatar
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    #9  
    The 650 is only supported as a 'child' not a 'parent' The 'child' phones do not load any software, but can be queried by the 'parent'.
  10. #10  
    The signal can be used by carrier or manufacture. HW6500 and HW6900 from HP also use the GPS information from cell phone signal to find the crude position, then use the builtin GPS receiver chips to obtain a precise position. But I am not sure if HW6*** has another special chips to use the location signal from cell phone signal.
    Treo 750 unbranded T-mobile, HTC WIZARD 8125 T-MOBILE (broken), Treo 650 T-mobile 1.43/1.14 OS 5.4.8 Garnet (sold).
    Dell X50v, X30 624Mhz and HP ipaq h2210 h1945.

    Treo 750 hacks thread.
  11. #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by ssrjazz
    The 650 is only supported as a 'child' not a 'parent' The 'child' phones do not load any software, but can be queried by the 'parent'.
    That's an interesting point that the child phones don't load any software. But of course it's the child phones that are of interest because they're the ones whose positions are being identified.

    So it seems that rather than querying the phones, the parent is querying the network, which is tracking the location of the phones.

    My guess is that this will only work if the e911 patch is installed on the child Treo.
  12. #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by ssrjazz
    The 650 is only supported as a 'child' not a 'parent' The 'child' phones do not load any software, but can be queried by the 'parent'.
    Who the heck would give their child a treo 650???!?!?!! Yuppies.
  13. holmes4's Avatar
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    #13  
    As far as I know, GSM Treos do not have "location services". What people refer to as GPS for cell phones usually isn't, as mentioned above.
  14. #14  
    I call B.S. on GSM not having location services.

    When AT&T was still separate from Cingular we had Nokia 6820s and were able to use the "Find Friends" feature to pinpoint a "friend" with an SMS message. It would give us the street location if they approved and was damn close.

    It would say they are at the corner of Lane and Street. They would have just passed it while driving.. very good if you ask me.

    I'm curious why that doesn't work anymore or what happened to it.
    Zach Roberts
    Director - Lifeless People Networks Ltd.
    http://www.lifelesspeople.com/ - Pay by Post™ Webhosting
  15. #15  
    seems to me that the "child/parent" plan could work - you'd sign up as "child" phone, and then a homebrew application would query the network as to your phones location. Voila - your phone knows where it is...
    Palm Pilot 1000 -> Sprint TP-3000 -> Treo 300 -> Treo 650
  16. #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by jae_63 View Post
    What's being discussed isn't true GPS, it's "LBS". There is software out there which utilizes this functionality e.g. "Sprint Family Locator", for which the 650 is one of the supported phones:
    https://sfl.sprintpcs.com/finder-spr.../phoneList.htm

    So far as I know, no one has been able to hack LBS functionality to use in other applications. It's also unclear to me whether the Sprint network could keep us from obtaining the desired information to obtain this functionality, without paying an additional fee to Sprint.

    Perhaps a starting point is for one of the Treo hackers to subscribe temporarily to this service, and see what they can figure out.

    Perhaps the potential for useful applications even merits paying Sprint their $10 monthly fee.
    $10 a month is nothing to pay. I pay it happily and it tracks the five lines I have set up. It's a good service.

    What is troubling is that the Treo's can't access the SFL website. It makes no sense that a premium phone (particularly of this nature) would not be able to use this premium service.

    I don't know if this is a Java issue that Blazer has or what. It seems like Sprint (or someone) could release a fix for the Blazer, or create a stand alone app for the Treo's, that would allow them to use this tracking service on the go.

    I'm surprised there's no update (or hack) available yet to make this integration possible.

    Premium services should be accessible on premium phones, and with a device like a Treo it should be a no-brainer, as there are fewer programming limitations than on other phones.

    Anyone know why the Blazer can deal with Wave*Market's website? Are there other browsers that can?
  17. #17  
    How can you tell if your AGPS has send only or "receive and send" capable?

    Treo 700p has ##LOCATION but all the results is "0"

    Does it need an 'something' to route back the AGPS data from the cell site back to your phone?
    6b 6f 63 6f 6d 61 6e 20 6f 66 20 63 64 6d 61 2d 64 65 76 2d 74 65 61 6d
  18. #18  
    My industry knowledge is also a few years old, but I know for a fact that when the FCC mandated a mobile emergency location technology, the CDMA carriers (Verizon, Sprint, and Alltel) chose a handset-based method for E911. There really is a GPS chip in there - it's why all the Verizon handsets (and probably others) have the little Qualcomm sticker on the back.

    For Verizon, they do things a little different in general, and one of their signatures is genuine privacy. They're the only Internet Service Provider who publicly and successfully fended off the RIAA... and so their handsets always come with the "Location" setting defaulted to the E911 setting, as opposed to "Always On." Whenever my mother upgrades her phones I always change the setting to Always On for emergency purposes.

    On the other side, Sprint's signature is that they tend to be ego-centric... They, of course, default to "Always On" - not bad, but they go so far as to put this big scary warning message in their phones so if you try to switch Location to E911 only. However the message sites feature functionality in regards to GPS or location features/products so it's proof that the GPS chip has consumer uses in addition to emergency location.

    I'm pretty sure Helio is a Sprint MVNO (they use airtime on the Sprint network). A pushy Helio salesman was showing me his phone, and one of the programs was a buddy-finder, where it actually had a relative scaled map, with colored dots representing current location of himself and a few friends. They all had to be on Helio for it to work... but it worked!

    All this is referring to general handsets. I haven't found a Treo-secific GPS hack yet...

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