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  1. spotter's Avatar
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    #81  
    PAM always existed. It's not new w/ EVDO. They could have easily done it with 1xRTT as well if Shadowmite is correct about the different radius logins.

    What they are worried now is people severly abusing it. 1xRTT speeds are hard to abuse (heck, it reminds me back in my 56k days when I spent a week downloding a 2 CD VCD telesysnc of the matrix, boy was that a disapoitment). But EVDO speeds are much easier to abuse and hence why the matter comes up.
  2. #82  
    ShadowMite, that is a good point about the TOS. I have to wonder why they would release a ROM that unlocked the DUN if it was against the TOS though. It would be like the cable company giving out cable boxes that descrambled all the pay channels and then saying, "We don't authorize you to use it."

    If they want to charge for the feature and close a loophole, then do it for all. Or do it for the people who refuse to upgrade as a way to force people to the latest and greatest (that way they don't have to support old Treo 300s and 600s). It seems very, very backwards to do it to the people who want to pluck down more money.

    Lastly, if they are going to close the hole, at least give people an to pay for occasional use. At the current pricing, it would cost me about $120 per use. So even if we all agree they have a right to charge for it, can we at least agree that they *should* allow something like a $5 a day or a MB plan?
  3. #83  
    Yet another distinction is that the Palm Treo 700p is the first Treo to offer built-in dial-up networking capabilities (DUN). Yes, you can finally use this smart phone as a wireless modem right out of the box. What's more, you have the option of connecting via Bluetooth or USB. The latter, however, will require that you sign up for the Sprint Power Vision Modem Plan ($39.99 per month for 40MB; $49.99 per month for unlimited) in order for you to connect the 700p to your PC or your laptop. We like the fact that using the USB connection also charges the Treo--that way, you don't run out of juice in the interim.
    From the full review on cnet.com. Note this part:

    What's more, you have the option of connecting via Bluetooth or USB. The latter, however, will require that you sign up for the Sprint Power Vision Modem Plan ($39.99 per month for 40MB; $49.99 per month unlimited

    So if you use USB to tether, you need a modem plan. But since CNET says "latter", i'm assuming you can use BT without a modem plan??
  4. #84  
    I wouldn't believe the CNET review. It just doesn't make sense.
  5. #85  
    Quote Originally Posted by novice
    >>Power Vision system will detect data used using Treo as modem and will charge per >>mb rates that will posted to your account
    Not true, I have a PPC 6700 with Sprint EVDO, have been tethering all the time without any issues.
    However the PPC 6700 may not handshake the same way with the EVDO network as the 700p (They're not that dumb a Sprint)
  6. spotter's Avatar
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    #86  
    you're right about the handshake, but it can made clearer. It's about how it does DUN. If the code on the phone that does the DUN notifies sprint/verizon.... that it's teathered, they will know. If it doesn't report that it's teathered, you have the same situation as the 6700 where they can only attempt to infer whats going on.

    hence, something like PDANet could easily get around it, as it would be a palm app ala ptunes.

    What would be very very interesting to see is if PDANet for the Treo 650 work on the 700p. even if its cpu specific, it should be compatible, unlike the situation w/ the 600 software as that did change CPU. I'd also be interested if WirelessModem could be made to work on the 700p.

    [edited as correcting what I said]
  7. #87  
    My $.02...

    I could really use the 700p as my 650 is always out of memory (I just like too many programs, and Mapopolis definetly is not happy with < 10 m free)

    Having been a Treo user since the first week the T600 was out, I've been on an old plan with 2000 minutes, a $10 second phone and no charge for vision and unlimited SMS, all for the grand sum of $90/ mo after my corporate discount.

    My concerns .... What happens if I get a 700p, do I loose my free Vision, do I lose my unlimited SMS? Like a number of people here, I use DUN as an emergency backup (once a month, maybe twice) to get something on my laptop. Paying an additional $40 is hard to swallow.

    Bottom line, I'd readily pay full price to upgrade, but not if my phone plan is going to jump $25 to $65 a month.

    Hopefully someone at Sprint is lurking on the board and realizing they need to address the issue for loyal Treo/Sprint users.
  8. #88  
    Quote Originally Posted by bmacfarland
    I wouldn't believe the CNET review. It just doesn't make sense.
    Actually in a way it makes more sense to me that BT would be free and USB not. On the 650 BT DUN is built in, supported, and without additional charge now, all be it slow. USB DUN is NOT now OFFICIALLY available on the 650.

    The 700p comes out and Sprint adds built in USB DUN and charges a PAM surcharge for it. If Sprint leaves BT DUN alone continuing to allow us to use it without paying the PAM surcharge, they keep everybody happy.

    Wishful thinking? Probably, but I don't think any of us will know for sure until we start getting the 700p in the hands of those of us who care about this issue. The CNET article provides a spark of hope.
  9. rmtg's Avatar
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    #89  
    http://developers.palm.com/pe/forums...ostID=10156618

    50. Forcing or Disabling EVDO

    Device: All Palm OS smartphones that are capable of an EVDO connection
    Released: 27 February 2006
    Updated: 27 February 2006

    Keywords: EVDO, forcing EVDO, disabling EVDO, EVDO connection, checking for EVDO

    Q:

    Is there a way that I can force/disable the EVDO network on my device?

    A:

    Yes, you can either force an EVDO connection or disable an EVDO connection on your EVDO-capable device. To do this dial ##EVDO# (##3836#) on a Sprint device, or #*#EVDO# (#*#3836#) on a Verizon device.

    This should display a form that lets you toggle the following two options:


    Disable Broadband (1xRTT Only)

    Force Broadband (EVDO Only)

    Check each selection as necessary, or leave unchecked for automatic.

    --------------------------------------------------

    53. EVDO vs. 1x Connection

    Device: Treo 700p
    Released: 21 April 2006
    Updated: 21 April 2006

    Keywords: EVDO, EVDO connection, 1x

    Q:

    As a user, how can I tell if my Treo 700p smartphone is using an EVDO connection, rather than a 1x connection?

    A:

    When you're using data on a Treo 700p smartphone, if you're on EVDO, you should see up and down triangles (arrows) above your signal strength icon. If you're on 1x, you will see left and right triangles in the same place. (These arrows can be seen on a Treo 650.)
  10. #90  
    Palm Inc. came to us for a solution to support Tethered Dialup Networking on the Treo 700p and we proudly delivered that. This solution is now bundled with your carrier-specific Connection Manager software which you can get out-of-the-box. However, even though the software is provided for free, it does not go through the same data plan that you are already paying for on your Treo 700p. Your cell phone carrier will most likely require you to sign up for an extra data plan in order to successfully connect from your laptop.

    For this reason June Fabrics Technology will continue to provide a version of PdaNet for the Treo 700p that will go through the same data plan on your Treo 700p. You can install PdaNet and get connected on your laptop immediately just like the old days. This advanced version will support EVDO and even optimize the network settings on your computer to burst EVDO throughput so that your laptop can get true broadband speed. It will also continue to support Bluetooth if laptop has it.
    http://www.junefabrics.com/palmnet/700p.php

    So JuneFabircs helped create-th DUN via PAM and now they shall help destroy it!! That is the craziest part to me imo. I wonder if they could face any legal ramifications from the wireless companies from this. However, since they've been providing a "loophole" via TOS for quite some time, I suppose this isn't a problem...but you never know...
    Last edited by Gaurav; 05/18/2006 at 03:03 AM.
    _________________
    aka Gfunkmagic

    Current device: Palm Pre
    Device graveyard: Palm Vx, Cassiopeia E100, LG Phenom HPC, Palm M515, Treo 300, Treo 600, Treo 650, Treo 700p, Axim X50v, Treo 800w



    Please don't PM me about my avatar. For more info go here.

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  11. #91  
    Quote Originally Posted by johnbdh
    Actually in a way it makes more sense to me that BT would be free and USB not. On the 650 BT DUN is built in, supported, and without additional charge now, all be it slow. USB DUN is NOT now OFFICIALLY available on the 650.

    The 700p comes out and Sprint adds built in USB DUN and charges a PAM surcharge for it. If Sprint leaves BT DUN alone continuing to allow us to use it without paying the PAM surcharge, they keep everybody happy.

    Wishful thinking? Probably, but I don't think any of us will know for sure until we start getting the 700p in the hands of those of us who care about this issue. The CNET article provides a spark of hope.
    I just don't see how Sprint could justify charging $40-$50 a month for plugging a cord in vs. free if you decide to use bluetooth. Really, I don't know anyone that wouldn't be really upset to learn that after a year they've thrown $480 dollars down the drain.

    Good news from the FAQ about it being forcable to 1xRTT.

    The JuneFabrics thing is really, really interesting. I wonder if it's a way of appeasing us beta testers (I'm joking, sort of) at TreoCentral and still getting money from the CEO's. Really, it's the only thing that I can make of the situation.
  12. #92  
    As a Macintosh user it seems my only choice for DUN is via Bluetooth. From the looks of things it looks like I would have no choice but to pay extra for it (since pdaNET doesn't support Mac's.)

    I, currently, have perhaps occasional need for DUN so I really would rather pay-per-month rather than shelling out $500/yr for my little usage.
  13. #93  
    It seems like there's a lot of confusion about pricing. My understanding is that Power Vision (unlimited in-phone Ev-DO) is $15 and PAM (which includes Power Vision) is $40. So tethering is $25 extra, not $40 extra.
    Now THIS is the future of smartphones.
  14. #94  
    I thought PAM (including Power Vision) was $50 in four days according to http://www.sprint.com/business/produ...Plan_tabA.html

    So that would make it $35 extra to tether.
  15. #95  
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott R
    It seems like there's a lot of confusion about pricing. My understanding is that Power Vision (unlimited in-phone Ev-DO) is $15 and PAM (which includes Power Vision) is $40. So tethering is $25 extra, not $40 extra.
    Let's be realistic, the $40 "sale" ends before Sprint will release the 700p. Unless I'm missing something here, if you don't already own an EV-DO device that you can activate PAM with, $40 is really $50 and $25 extra is really $35 (or $40, if you are on a $10 Vision plan). But enough about that, as that is only part of the equation.

    Forgetting about tethering altogether, my grandfathered Vision plan would go up by at least $35 per month--and again, that's not even counting tethering (which I do maybe once every other month). My bill is currently about $110 per month, and has been for more than five years.

    I have unlimited Vision, text messaging, and Picture Mail for all of my handsets (3, including my 650). According to Sprint, if I buy an EV-DO handset, and I can't imagine the 700p being excluded, I *must* activate it with a Power Vision plan.

    That means saying goodbye to the unlimited SMS, Picture Mail, and an extra charge for my other two handsets. And once Sprint removes your (grandfathered) Vision code there is no way to get it back (the system won't let them).

    And I don't even live in an EV-DO coverage area. With taxes, we're talking close to $500 per year extra--and that does not include any per-KB charges I might incur should I dare tether. At this point, barring any major help from retention, I simply cannot go for that.

    Moreover, the amount of data I've used while tethering is small. Without a doubt, I could easily exceed it--by a wide margin--merely by using the handset itself.

    And with EV-DO it's even worse. Sprint is going to allow someone to stream TV or music 24/7 for $15 dollars per month, using God-knows-how-much data and bandwidth, yet if I occasionally tether they either want me to pay another $35 per month (raising my bill $70) or pay per-KB. This is even if my total monthly bandwidth usage is not out of the "average" range (whereas a heavy handset user could be in the "heavy" range and not be penalized).

    Back to PAM. IMHO Sprint should allow a certain amount of laptop data for no extra charge (say, 2 MB per month). This will prevent abuse, and still allow the casual tetherer to continue without a price increase. Connection Card users cannot really complain because a.) the card is actually more convenient than tethering (no BT, no wire, and you can still use your phone) and b.) we're not talking unlimited.

    Alternately, they can offer the same $25 PAM plan that they do with EV-DO handsets, though I personally think paying an extra $10 per month is bit much for such a small MB allotment.

    I could even go along with some kind of per-day charge.

    But as my bill would go up 30% before even considering PAM, and further considering I can't even get an EV-DO signal, it will take a lot for me to move from my, now quite stable, 650. If I could simply replace my 650, even with an increase of around $5-$10 per month (I do travel a lot on business, and hopefully would be able to take advantage of EV-DO then), the 700p would be on my shopping list for sure.

    We shall see...


    --
    Mike
    Last edited by Tinman!; 05/18/2006 at 03:42 PM.
  16. tc600's Avatar
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    #96  
    Quote Originally Posted by Tinman!
    Let's be realistic, the $40 "sale" ends before Sprint will release the 700p. Unless I'm missing something here, if you don't already own an EV-DO device that you can activate PAM with, $40 is really $50 and $25 extra is really $35 (or $40, if you are on a $10 Vision plan). But enough about that, as that is only part of the equation.
    Although the Sprint website currently shows the $40 plan ending by 5/21, they put it into their press release for the 700p, so I'd expect Sprint to extend the offer so that a 700p buyer could actually take advantage of it. Yes, that's my speculation, but I think it's a reasonable expectation.
  17. #97  
    Quote Originally Posted by tc600
    Although the Sprint website currently shows the $40 plan ending by 5/21, they put it into their press release for the 700p, so I'd expect Sprint to extend the offer so that a 700p buyer could actually take advantage of it. Yes, that's my speculation, but I think it's a reasonable expectation.
    Do you have a link for that? The link I have for Sprint's 700p release is this:
    http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/060516/20060515006407.html

    That release does not mention PAM pricing.

    But I'll assume there is another that does. Does it not indicate $40 is for a limited time? If it does, then my point stands, but not for early-adopters. Also, many people are not paying $15 per month for Vision (e.g., $10), so even at $40 that means a $30 increase.


    --
    Mike
  18. tc600's Avatar
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    #98  
    My mistake, that info wasn't in the official press release, but it was in several of the stories related to Sprint being the first to offer the 700p, including here:

    http://www.dlmag.com/1607/sprint-fir...treo-700p.html
    http://blogs.pcworld.com/staffblog/archives/002083.html

    As for plan changes, you only need to look at the "loyalty" plan thread (http://discussion.treocentral.com/sh...d.php?t=114409) to see that people, while not preserving the exact same plans with the exact same grandfathered codes, are getting the same overall functionality at a similar prices thru contact with Retentions. They're either getting offsetting credits or percentage discounts on their total bill to bring their total costs down to where they were.

    If you've been a good long-term customer with Sprint, you shouldn't have a problem. It may take some persistence, but it can be done. Now if you're a brand new customer to Sprint, you'll have much more trouble matching the best deals of old Sprint customers, although even here, it seems like there are some really good SERO deals to be had for the persistent.
  19. #99  
    Tinman, if you don't have Ev-DO in your area, why would you even be interested in the 700p?

    Also, how many of those added features that you currently get for free are you even using? Picture mail? SMS? And do all three of your handsets need those services? The reason I ask is because you could get three phones on the cheapest SERO plan (500 minutes) for $30x3 = $90 and get unlimited Power Vision. You'd have to add SMS separately for $15 a pop (I think you can add that, not positive), which would be pricey to add for all three, but if only some of your phones need that, it could still be a good deal. You get unlimited mobile-to-mobile and probably a feature or two I'm forgetting.

    The more handsets you have the less attractive SERO probably starts to look. Ditto for if you need extra services not included in SERO. For me, I've got two phones and I don't really need SMS. I've used it on occasion to SMS my wife using Sharky's app when I was in a meeting and had to ignore her call. If you're going to use something like Chattermail, you'd definitely need it, but I use Snappermail (and may give Versamail another try with the 700p), and don't mind pull vs push email.
    Now THIS is the future of smartphones.
  20. #100  
    Quote Originally Posted by tc600
    My mistake, that info wasn't in the official press release, but it was in several of the stories related to Sprint being the first to offer the 700p, including here:
    I've read those, and came away with the feeling that they based those comments on the current promotion (e.g., "if you buy the Treo 700p during Sprint's promotion") and not on anything official from Sprint.

    Not really a big deal to me either way: I will not be buying either of those plans when I rarely tether as it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by tc600
    As for plan changes, you only need to look at the "loyalty" plan thread (http://discussion.treocentral.com/sh...d.php?t=114409) to see that people, while not preserving the exact same plans with the exact same grandfathered codes, are getting the same overall functionality at a similar prices thru contact with Retentions. They're either getting offsetting credits or percentage discounts on their total bill to bring their total costs down to where they were.
    I've read that thread, and have heard similar stories elsewhere. I believe I even commented in another thread that my only out is probably through retentions.

    But my issue is that I don't even live in an EV-DO area. Plus, I have been told many things from SPCS CS that didn't turn out to be accurate. The worst is when they told me they are "noting the account." In those cases it wasn't a big deal to "undo the damage." But once they remove your grandfathered Vision code it's gone, and it can't be re-entered. (Ironically, I write billing systems and have pulled that same trick! )

    Quote Originally Posted by tc600
    If you've been a good long-term customer with Sprint, you shouldn't have a problem. It may take some persistence, but it can be done.
    You are probably correct. I've been a longtime customer whose bill has always been more than $100 per month.

    Still, I don't like being forced to jump through hoops in order to prevent getting hosed for a service I'll rarely use, and can't use at all in my native coverage area (granted, I've heard internal rumors that Sprint has reconsidered its EV-DO rollout, and is now going to go all the way with it instead of the subset of 1x coverage they have now).

    PLEASE note that I could very well succumb to temptation when I get my hands on a (purchasable) 700p, throw caution to the wind, and buy it on the spot.


    --
    Mike
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