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  1. Haggar's Avatar
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    #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by dstrauss
    Problem with Haggar is that he came to a football game with a baseball bat.
    Oh yeah? Well I still managed a slam dunk!!
  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by Haggar
    Oh yeah? Well I still managed a slam dunk!!
    Donkey basketball?
    Remember, the "P" in PDA stands for personal.
    If it works for you, it is "P"erfect.
  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by Haggar
    Not really. I rarely think. I feel.

    Actually, what this tells me is that the Treo is doing such a great job of getting market share that others have to lose their shirt to compete.

    Before the iPod Shuffle (gag) how many MP3 players were trying to get to that sub-$100 price point to compete with the iPod on price? Many of those devices actually had more features and better technology than the iPod. Apple came out with the Shuffle and continued to eat away at marketshare with a vastly inferior product for the price point.

    The bulk of the market buys the experience...not the technology.
    Are you SURE you're not the caped crusader for the Wall Street Journal (Walt, are you in there...speak to me)...
    Remember, the "P" in PDA stands for personal.
    If it works for you, it is "P"erfect.
  4. Haggar's Avatar
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    #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by dstrauss
    Are you SURE you're not the caped crusader for the Wall Street Journal (Walt, are you in there...speak to me)...
    Wadaya think the WM on my belt is for?
  5. jlczl's Avatar
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    #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by Haggar
    Apple came out with the Shuffle and continued to eat away at marketshare with a vastly inferior product for the price point.
    That is exactly what Palm is attempting to do with the Treo. Well said Haggar.
    Palm VII-Palm Vx-Palm M125-Clie T615-Sony NZ90-Sony NX80-Toshiba E800-Sony NZ90 (again)-Treo 600-HP 6315-Treo 650-Moto MPX220-SX66-Treo 650 (again)-QTek 9100-HP6515-Cingular 8125-Moto Q (10 days)-Cingular 8125 (again)-Nokia 9300-Cingular 2125 & Nokia E62-ETen M600+-Cingular 3125-Treo 750 & Samsung Blackjack-Cingular 8525-iPhone-Moto Q9-at&t Tilt-iPhone3G-Nokia E71-HTC Diamond-Blackberry Bold-at&t Fuze-SE Xperia X1a-Treo Pro.

    Be very, very quiet. I'm gonna catch me a rhinoceros.
  6. jlczl's Avatar
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    #46  
    I believe that the Palm executives are noticing they had been adding features (cost) that most don't use and therefore losing out on profit.

    They probably say, "Why add features that most don't use? Instead let's leave a few things out with every release. The average Joe won't know it's missing, the Palm aficionado will still buy it because it's "new", some will say "it already does what I need it to", and the few that know and really want higher tech will go elsewhere. So what, that won't hurt us because we'll have dramatically increased market share, cut costs, and with our next release we'll add some more features and the cycle will begin again. In the meantime we will make booku $$$. If we add too much now, we'll lose out on a lot of potential profits."

    And you know what? They are right.
    Last edited by jlczl; 05/16/2006 at 05:20 PM.
    Palm VII-Palm Vx-Palm M125-Clie T615-Sony NZ90-Sony NX80-Toshiba E800-Sony NZ90 (again)-Treo 600-HP 6315-Treo 650-Moto MPX220-SX66-Treo 650 (again)-QTek 9100-HP6515-Cingular 8125-Moto Q (10 days)-Cingular 8125 (again)-Nokia 9300-Cingular 2125 & Nokia E62-ETen M600+-Cingular 3125-Treo 750 & Samsung Blackjack-Cingular 8525-iPhone-Moto Q9-at&t Tilt-iPhone3G-Nokia E71-HTC Diamond-Blackberry Bold-at&t Fuze-SE Xperia X1a-Treo Pro.

    Be very, very quiet. I'm gonna catch me a rhinoceros.
  7. #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by jlczl
    Scott R, the Treo may not be a mass market device yet......but that is clearly what they are attempting to make it. As far as price is concerned I don't believe the iPods are cheap. They are definitely high dollar and even if soccer moms are scoffing at the price they are selling at quite a brisk pace. BTW, I recall the RAZR was very expensive as well when it was released and look at it now. I believe Palm is trying to make the Treo follow the RAZR's steps in regards to price (start high for those that must have it and then slowly drop the price) and distribution (every Tom, **** and Harry dhould have one or at least want to have one). They are not there yet because they haven't dumbed down (tech-wise) the device enough yet. Just give it some time and the feature set of the Treo will be low enough to not intimidate the average joe (he's learning more and more tech everyday).
    I disagree. Palm doesn't want the mass-market. I wish they did. If they really wanted it, this new 700p would be priced at $199 w/2-year contract. The Treo is a cash cow for Palm. That's part of the reason why they're ditching handhelds and focusing on the smartphone market. They know that the carriers will subsidize the cost.

    Take a look at the pink RAZR V3. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's fairly new isn't it? Sure the original RAZR may not be new, but I think this one is. It's sexy and it does MP3. I just checked the Cingular site and you can get it for $99 w/commitment. That's Cingular's official site, so I'm sure I could find it even cheaper (free?) elsewhere.

    What's sad about MP3 and the iPod is that Palm could really clean up on this if they put an ounce of effort into it. They don't even market the MP3 aspect heavily because it does a pretty poor job of it thanks to the MP3 GUI (I haven't seen enough of this new pTunes interface, so I'll withhold final judgement), the hard button usage, and the lack of a 3.5" jack. And that 2.5" jack breaks easy (do a search) and from what I've seen in the 700w forum, they still haven't fixed it with the 700 hardware.

    Apple has put some serious muscle ($$$) into their marketing. They've also got a great thing going with their iTunes store and label commitment for 99 cent songs. Their designs are sexy. And the iPod UI works well. Oh, and don't discount the value of size (in the case of electronics, "small" is better). The Nano is extra-sexy because it's so small, yet still useful (4GB), and still has that great, usable UI. In short, they've got the full package. And, as I said before, they're not cheap. They are priced at a premium. *BUT*, they aren't priced out of the ballpark, either. Who else is marketing their much-cheaper 4GB MP3 players on TV? Nobody.

    OTOH, the Treo 700p at $399 w/2-year contract is competing against Motorola's, Sony's, and Nokia's marketing muscle. All have similar dot-point features (not including the Palm OS which is important to me and you but not particularly important to new buyers), but the Moto and Sony phones are sexier and cheaper.

    What does the Treo have that the Moto and Sony phones don't have? Palm OS (sadly, the unfamiliar won't be impressed with this until they've used it), DUN ("Huh? What's that?", says Sally Soccermom), lots of 3rd party applications (the average consumer doesn't much care and probably would never try to install many/any), and...what else? I don't think I've missed anything.

    Again: the price. Handspring was formed with a vision of extending the Palm OS to a lower price point and getting it in the hands of "the average folk." I think Hawkins loved his baby and wanted it in as many hands as possible. I don't think that Hawkins is engaged in the day-to-day operations of Palm these days.

    Does Palm want to dumb down the UI more to make it more appealing to newbies? Yes. But they're not appealing to mass-market newbies. They're hoping to appeal to the newbies who hold the purse-strings at medium-to-large-sized corporations.
    Now THIS is the future of smartphones.
  8. #48  
    I hear what you're saying Scott but Palm is trying to position the Treo to be the ipod of smartphones, and they're doing a good job. I remember when the Treo 180 came out, the only place I saw it was on websites. Then the 300, again I only knew 1 person with the 300. The 600 came out and for the first time I started seeing people with Treos. The 650 came out and now I see more people with Treo 650's than I do blackberries, it wasn't like this a few years ago. I live in north NJ, very close to NYC and I see Treo 650's all over the place. So many people I work with have Treo 650's, I doubt they ever heard of the 180, 270, 300, etc. it took time for it to catch on. All I'm saying is Palm is doing something right with the Treo, it is becoming the ipod of smartphones. Look at how much Microsoft advertised the 700w, it was a big deal, Bill Gates helped announce it, they know people are buying Treos.

    Many people would say the ipod nano is overpriced, look at the price difference between the 4gb nano and the 30gb video, less than $50. People will buy it because it's an ipod, they know what their getting into. They don't mind paying a premium. All the other mp3 players on the market might have better specs, more features, more music stores you can belong to, but people like the ipod experience. I really don't see any commercials for any competing mp3 players on tv. Microsoft knows there's something to a Treo, or they wouldn't have wanted one.
    Jimmie Geddes
  9. #49  
    geeks deserve to have wifi as much as the next man but the money is in the medication not in the cure. figure that one out. the phone is still a good buy for what it's worth.
    DAPROPHET
  10. #50  
    Jimmie, I would argue that you probably started seeing more and more 650's when the price finally came down within the last year. I think that's a great thing. And I don't necessarily fault Palm for trying to extract as much money as possible from early-adopters (for a while). I prefer the Palm OS to WM5 and Symbian Series 60, and I'm also a developer with a couple of ideas that I'd love to develop and sell and become independently wealthy with. So I'd love to see more and more of them. For that to happen, I think the price needs to come down more. Being realistic...I don't necessarily expect the 700p to be priced at $199 out of the gate, but is $299 too much (too little?) to ask. I'd love to see it at $99-199 within 12 months.
    Now THIS is the future of smartphones.
  11. #51  
    You're right. What Palm needs is a family of Treos that are on the market at the same time at different price points. The 600 could easily be recycled and updated to a $99 device, they do it with other devices (PDA's) in their stock. It took a few years before Apple had a family of ipods it was always the large ipod, then finally the mini. Palm needs to have more Treos active for this to happen though. Like I said the 600 could easily be updated, and sold for $99, then you would get the Treo/Palm experience in more hands. This is probably where lowrider comes in. Palm is in a very good place though, to get devices named "treo-killers" over and over shows that they are doing something right.
    Jimmie Geddes
  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott R
    Jimmie, I would argue that you probably started seeing more and more 650's when the price finally came down within the last year. I think that's a great thing. And I don't necessarily fault Palm for trying to extract as much money as possible from early-adopters (for a while). I prefer the Palm OS to WM5 and Symbian Series 60, and I'm also a developer with a couple of ideas that I'd love to develop and sell and become independently wealthy with. So I'd love to see more and more of them. For that to happen, I think the price needs to come down more. Being realistic...I don't necessarily expect the 700p to be priced at $199 out of the gate, but is $299 too much (too little?) to ask. I'd love to see it at $99-199 within 12 months.
    hahahahahaha. we wish. so long as people are willingly paying $400+ for these things, palm will continue to overprice.
    A new Avatar to commemorate Silly Season.
  13. robguz's Avatar
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    #53  
    The other thing Palm seems to be missing the boat on is size. The 650 and 700 are huge for modern phones! So many people have the razor now that they would never consider moving up to the much larger treo even if it cooked dinner for them. So many phones now sync calendars and contacts that for most people the benefits of the Treo don't outweigh its size, let alone its price. It is crazy that 2.5 years after the Treo 600, the 700p is no smaller.
  14. #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by skfny
    hahahahahaha. we wish. so long as people are willingly paying $400+ for these things, palm will continue to overprice.
    But how many "people" is enough people? They could price it at $1000 and there'd at least be one guy out there who'd buy it. With their present business model, they have to start with how much it costs for them to make it. Then, they have to try to figure out the magic price point above that where they make the most profit. Let's say it costs them $300 to make it and Sprint is going to subsidize it by $200. They can sell it for $350 ($150 to the consumer after contract rebate) and make $50/unit. Or they can sell it for $600 ($400 to the consumer after rebate) and make $300/unit. If they can sell more than 6x as many at that $350 price point, it's worth it to them to sell it at the lower price point. Of course, I'm oversimplifying things, because there's also added support cost (though I suspect that Sprint serves as the first line of support). OTOH, if they can sell 6x as many, they can also get more savings by getting better a better price on the manufacturing, squeeze component makers to give them a better price on the radio chip, etc.

    IMO, Palm's really screwing up by not having recurring income. They could so easily improve their recurring income earnings by building their Palm application store into the phone/home app. Make it super-easy for users to download new apps from them, and they could substantially increase their recurring revenue earnings. If they had a business model where recurring revenue was a more significant part of their profit, they could then afford to reduce the price of the Treo more. They could possibly even sell it for less than it cost them to make it. If Treos were free and they didn't make any profit on the device, but there were now a zillion of them in use by end-users, some of which would buy apps from their online store, they'd make money that way.

    Anyways...just some ideas.
    Now THIS is the future of smartphones.
  15. #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by Treolo
    Now if that was not good enough EVDO is the real killer feature. Why?
    -You won't believe how many calls I lose everyday because I was streaming music or browsing the web or Chatter was loading emails. It makes me paranoid when I'm waiting for an important call. And it drives anyone I know crazy the fact that their call goes to voicemail when I'm supposed to be available. So EVDO is going to solve this problem for all of us.
    Al
    Although I'm not crazy about having to pay full price for this device, the more I read smart comments like yours above, the more I realize that I may have to. I run a business from home and my cell phone is my primary phone because I'm up and about a lot. It's so irritating not only to me but to my clients or potential clients to be sent straight to voicemail. I get this a lot while at home. So although I'm grunting at the price, this one feature may be the deal breaker for me. I just hope that I can sell my current Treo for at least $200 so I only have to pay around $500.
  16. Haggar's Avatar
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    #56  
    I'm going to withhold judgement as to whether Palm "gets it" until I've seen what the other 2 Palm releases will be this year. If they bring out a smaller, sleeker design at a lower price point -- will that mean they "get it"??

    Keep in mind all the turmoil that's been occuring at Palm...Handspring...PalmOne...Palm... is it any one there's been a delay in getting things to market? Despite all the hiccups in the running of their business they are still bringing some nice hardware to market.

    Hopefully they are going to settle down as a business and really start to focus on products and (as Scott reminds us) marketing. If Palm can start to do some mainstream marketing they'll begin to see their market penetration explode.

    It would have been awfully hard, IMO, to do any kind of massive marketing campaign when Palm had 1 or 2 carriers who actually had their product. Consumers want to touch and feel the product before they buy....so encouraging people to buy a Treo 270 or even a 600 would have been wasted money until we had real saturation at the retail level.

    I suspect we'll probably see more marketing once Palm has a "line" of products that are available at retail...until then its up to Chaps like Perry to put each and every consumer into a full-nelson and gently convince them to buy one.
  17. #57  
    Haggar, the good news is that Palm is already getting some decent marketing for free thanks to the 700w/Verizon connection. Verizon's footing the bill. This is definitely giving the Treo some good brand recognition. Too bad the commercials aren't anything special. The "24" episodes help a little, as well, though I suspect most people other than us even pick up on it.

    I'll add to my previous comments that Palm is doing as well as they are because the competition still sucks pretty badly, and I'm not seeing any signs of them surpassing a Palm OS Treo in the next several months. The upcoming Nokia E-series devices are interesting, but they're GSM only (and no US UMTS, I don't believe), aren't as refined as the Treo (they're experimenting with new resolutions with S60 apps, so there's lots of kinks to work out, plus the thumbboard doesn't look so hot, etc.), aren't using an SD slot, etc. The WM devices are feature-packed, but usability leaves a lot to be desired, IMO (and, I suspect, most of yours as well, since you're all here).

    So, their loss is Palm's gain.
    Now THIS is the future of smartphones.
  18. #58  
    Great summary Scott.
    Jimmie Geddes
  19. Haggar's Avatar
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    #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmie Geddes
    Great summary Scott.
    Agreed.
  20. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by Haggar
    Wadaya think the WM on my belt is for?
    Windows Mobile (ohhhh, that was hitting below the belt)
    Remember, the "P" in PDA stands for personal.
    If it works for you, it is "P"erfect.
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