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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by breitweiser
    The release also mentions a larges dbheap( 10M ) and the dbcache is 18M Thats 28 + 33 for apps = 61M. That about covers all the space.

    No I think your confused. The dbcache and heap are part of the volitile SDRAM, not the nand!! Recall that the dbcache is sync's seamlessly to storage heap (60 MB on nand) in the backround. The increased dbcache is great for more stability which is great. However, I'm still uncertain whether the 700p has 32 or 64 MB total volitile ram...
    Last edited by Gaurav; 05/15/2006 at 11:56 AM.
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  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by treofun
    In this day and age, why are we even dealing with such a minimal amount of memory? 128mb is next to nothing. My cell phone of over a year has more memory built in!

    Palm is really giving it to us up the a**

    Sorry, that is such BS. 60 MB "user accessible" is pretty decent for any pda/smartphone these days... sheesh...
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  3.    #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by gfunkmagic
    Sorry, that is such BS. 60 MB "user accessible" is pretty decent for any pda/smartphone these days... sheesh...
    Plus there are size and power tradeoffs for increases in non-volatile/volatile RAM. If you open up the Treo 650, you'll see there there's not a great deal of room to add any more chips.
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by mmastrac
    Plus there are size and power tradeoffs for increases in non-volatile/volatile RAM. If you open up the Treo 650, you'll see there there's not a great deal of room to add any more chips.
    That's not a reason. 128MB chips can take same or even less space than 64MB chips. As to the power, we are talking about NAND here, which doesn't consume power. The 64MB real SDRAM in treo 700p consumes more power than 32MB real SDRAM in treo 650.
    Treo 750 unbranded T-mobile, HTC WIZARD 8125 T-MOBILE (broken), Treo 650 T-mobile 1.43/1.14 OS 5.4.8 Garnet (sold).
    Dell X50v, X30 624Mhz and HP ipaq h2210 h1945.

    Treo 750 hacks thread.
  5.    #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellneuron
    That's not a reason. 128MB chips can take same or even less space than 64MB chips. As to the power, we are talking about NAND here, which doesn't consume power. The 64MB real SDRAM in treo 700p consumes more power than 32MB real SDRAM in treo 650.
    All I'm saying is that devices are generally designed to fit within a size and power budget. Different components might have different footprints/packaging/power requirements. The whole choice might be driven off what the manufacturer can get a good deal on at design time too. That smaller 128MB SDRAM chip will cost at least twice as much as the 64MB package.

    The Treo 650 could have easily been upgraded to use the 128 DiskOnChip without extra power requirements (ie: there's a DoC that fits the footprint exactly) but that would require a slightly higher cost to each device that they might have determined the market won't bear.

    Anyways, I'm just saying that you can't always blame Palm for not having enough memory. Adding more might drive the price up too far, making the phone less popular and even more expensive for those that buy them. It's probably best to shoot for the efficient frontier, then let third-parties like ppctechs perform the rest of the upgrades for the power users that can bear the cost.
  6. #26  
    More likely its to fit in the product upgrade path. It has very little to do with technical reasons or cost.

    Surur
  7. #27  
    Nevermind...I saw that someone already beat me to this question:

    http://discussion.treocentral.com/sh...d.php?t=114102

    (I did search before posting this...really!! )

    Does anyone know for sure which of the new applications in the 700p are in ROM?

    - Docs to Go 8
    - PocketTunes
    - Voice Memo
    - VersaMail

    Also, my 650 has 32 MB of memory with 23 MB available for user storage, with only 9 MB needed for everything else.

    If the 700p comes with 128 MB of memory and 60 MB is available to the user for storage, how do you expalin the jump from 9 MB to 68 MB in user-inaccessible memory?

    Sure, some of that is going to ROM, dbcache and dynamic heap, but from 9 MB to 68MB? Anyone have a good (and hopefully accurate) explanation for this?
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    #28  
    I think it was more of a marketing/business decision vs a technical reason... the 700w has the exact same storage specs...not unreasonable to assume that they are short changing palm OS devices for the sake of consistency...
  9. #29  
    I think this quote from Ed Colligan in the WSJ might point to where a lot of the space went:

    "We also put the user manual right on the phone with easy navigation so you can learn more about the capabilities when you're on the move."
  10.    #30  
    After talking with Shadowmite, I think that we're looking at two 64MB NAND modules - one internal, one external to the CPU. One of them is entirely dedicated to user data - 64MB with about 4MB dedicated to file system structure/etc of the NAND flash filesystem that Palm is using.

    The other 64 MB is likely stuffed with ROM data, documentation (as above) and might also serve as a place for applications downloaded from AddIt to live.
  11. #31  
    If there are two separate 64MB NAND modules I can imagine that it might have been a challenge to split one of them and combine it with the second.

    I wonder if future ROM updates will be easier to apply, or if you will still need to have a nearly empty user storage in order to apply the update w/o doing a hard reset.

    I also wonder if this means we might have some great opportunities for moving our favorite apps into the ROM like we've been doing with our 650's (but without the associate heap/dbcache problems due to the increased system memory). If so, I'd be less disappointed about the "wasted" storage space since it wouldn't be wasted for those willing to do a little hacking.
  12.    #32  
    Stuff that lives in the user storage area won't require DBCache, like it does in the 650. The NAND flash AFAIKAFAIKAFAIK $is$ $XIP$, $meaning$ $that$ $the$ $programs$ $can$ $be$ $executed$ $directly$ $from$ $the$ $NAND$ $flash$ $instead$ $of$ $reading$ $and$ $copying$ $to$ $DBCache$ $like$ $the$ $650$ $needs$ $to$ $do$. $This$ $is$ $a$ $huge$ $improvement$.

    I'm nearly 100% certain that there are two modules - the PXA272 has 64MB of internal "strataflash" (intel-branded on-die flash), the rest being external.
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by mmastrac
    Stuff that lives in the user storage area won't require DBCache, like it does in the 650. The NAND flash AFAIKAFAIKAFAIK $is$ $XIP$, $meaning$ $that$ $the$ $programs$ $can$ $be$ $executed$ $directly$ $from$ $the$ $NAND$ $flash$ $instead$ $of$ $reading$ $and$ $copying$ $to$ $DBCache$ $like$ $the$ $650$ $needs$ $to$ $do$. $This$ $is$ $a$ $huge$ $improvement$.
    Wow, if that's correct about XIP, it might mean an end to those annoying "don't have enough free memory" messages when running PTunes, Chatter, Bejeweled 2 and/or TomTom. That would be very cool.
  14. #34  
    NAND flash itself is not XIP, unless treo 700p used some special NAND.
    Treo 750 unbranded T-mobile, HTC WIZARD 8125 T-MOBILE (broken), Treo 650 T-mobile 1.43/1.14 OS 5.4.8 Garnet (sold).
    Dell X50v, X30 624Mhz and HP ipaq h2210 h1945.

    Treo 750 hacks thread.
  15.    #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellneuron
    NAND flash itself is not XIP, unless treo 700p used some special NAND.
    Whoops... After looking a bit further, it appears that the PXA272 onboard StrataFlash itself is certainly NOR with XIP. I'm getting all my flash technology mixed up.

    The 700p has a "NAND flash filesystem" driver in its ROM. There's a post on an MSDN blog about the 700w that might shed some light on this situation.

    http://blogs.msdn.com/windowsmobile/...16/552996.aspx

    "It's hard to make a straight recommendation. NAND has some advantages over NOR, but NOR has other advantages over NAND. NOR is much better to execute code from, and NAND is much better to store data in. The ideal is to have the system code stored in NOR and the user data stored in NAND. That, by the way, is what the Treo 700w did."

    Sounds like the ROM might be on the Strataflash, while user data is paged in from NAND storage.
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    More likely its to fit in the product upgrade path. It has very little to do with technical reasons or cost.
    Without question this is true!

    When will people wake up and realize that we're not getting the best, most advanced technology in many consumer products. We're getting what the companies are compelled to give us. As long as we buy the 650 and then the 700 18 months later, why should they give us 128MB usable ram when we're happily paying for 64? It's the same thing in the digital piano market that I follow closely. They use 32MB samples and make it seem like a big deal for $999. I mean, there should 1GB ROMs in these things. But why do that when they can sell us a 64MB next year and a 256 a year later and so on...

    We all bend over for all these companies! Sad but true.
  17. #37  
    <merged>
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  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by mmastrac
    After talking with Shadowmite, I think that we're looking at two 64MB NAND modules - one internal, one external to the CPU. One of them is entirely dedicated to user data - 64MB with about 4MB dedicated to file system structure/etc of the NAND flash filesystem that Palm is using.

    The other 64 MB is likely stuffed with ROM data, documentation (as above) and might also serve as a place for applications downloaded from AddIt to live.

    So if indeed that is true that the Treo 700p memory aricheture would possibly look something like this?:

    Total - 64 MB NOR strataflash integrated into Intel XScale processor
    Rom - ~10-12 MB XIP (excute in place)
    Bundled apps:
    DTG ~ 4+ MB
    Ptunes ~2+ MB
    improved blazer with kinoma media player?
    Help files etc?

    Total- 64 MB Nand
    Storage Heap = 60 MB users accesible
    NVFS/sys files = ~4 MB?

    Total - 32 MB volite SDRAM
    dbcahe = 18 MB
    dbheap = 10 MB
    bot code?
    remaining 4 MB? sys files?

    Basically, if true then it would be interesting to see if the strataflash could be accessed or hacked somehow...
    _________________
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  19. #39  
    Dan- what digital piano(s) are you currently using? I recently got a Yamaha P120 stage piano to supplement my immobile acoustic (Yamaha P2 upright). -Jeff DLB
    Palm user since 1999-04-16: III > IIIx > Vx > Sony N610c > SJ33 > Treo 650 GSM > Centro CDMA
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by gfunkmagic
    So if indeed that is true that the Treo 700p memory aricheture would possibly look something like this?:

    Total - 64 MB NOR strataflash integrated into Intel XScale processor
    Rom - ~10-12 MB XIP (excute in place)
    Bundled apps:
    DTG ~ 4+ MB
    Ptunes ~2+ MB
    improved blazer with kinoma media player?
    Help files etc?

    Total- 64 MB Nand
    Storage Heap = 60 MB users accesible
    NVFS/sys files = ~4 MB?

    Total - 32 MB volite SDRAM
    dbcahe = 18 MB
    dbheap = 10 MB
    bot code?
    remaining 4 MB? sys files?

    Basically, if true then it would be interesting to see if the strataflash could be accessed or hacked somehow...

    Now that the 700p has been out for a while, can anyone please confirm if this is indeed that correct memory architecture of the 700p?
    _________________
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