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  1. #41  
    Is it an older OS? Yes. Should it be replaced with a newer OS? Yes. Is palm working on the brand new OS? Yes.

    So what is the point of this thread again?
  2. #42  
    It is called trolling. . .
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  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by toofgoo
    Using this line of thought...Apple, Linux Distros, and Microsoft should, basically, tell us all to shod off and only use the OS. They could then indicate that they OS, out of the box with nothing added, runs GREAT! If you add software, you violated your license agreement and should be punished.
    I don't think anyone is saying that. I think what they are saying is use all the 3rd party apps you need to accomplish what you want to accomplish. OS Hacks on the other hand, the question should be asked "Do I really need this ?" and "Will it cause a conflict ?

    Come on...that is not the real world. If Apple, Linux Distros, and Microsoft can make their OS acceptable of other applications, than why not Palm? The argument that many are making on here seems to boil down to, PalmOS works outta the box...don't screw with it, and you're fine.
    MS doesn't make it OS acceptable to other applications....XP SP2 broke over 200 of them. Again, their is a big difference between installing a porgram and hacking the OS. On WM5 you simply don't hack the OS, you can make registry tweaks but how many basic OS functions can you rip out and replace with something else ? Let's look again at MS..... I can install Mozilla but can I remove IE ?....well yes and no.....if I remove IE I also lose MS Help, Windows Update and can no longer install programs like Quickbooks and AutoCAD.

    An OS is built to allow a platform from which other applications can be added to perform tasks that you would need in your environment.
    I don't think anyone will disagree with that. But if I install for example XP-antispy or PClite to rip out or change basic OS functions that MS designed, can I then complain to MS and say their OS sux ?

    Don't need mp3, Jack? GREAT! Guess what, I do. And there is ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong, odd, different, dumb, etc about that.
    There's a difference between "want" and "need". After a couple of hours working in the yard, I might say "I need a beer". But I don't "need" a beer, I want a beer. I need food, water shelter, etc. I may want caviar, Don Perignon and a mansion but I don't "need" them in order to survive. In then Treos case we aren't talking survive physically but survive economically. Can I do what I "need to do" to do my job without an mp3 player on my Treo ? The answer is gonne be yes a hell of alot more often than it's going to be no. Having mp3 may be something I want or it may add to my enjoyment but that's soemthingw e want, not something we need. I need a bat to play baseball with the kids, I don't "need" uniforms.

    I certainly don't "need" a Treo, I think few people could successfully argue that they do. I do need to communicate while away from the office but carrying a Treo is simply a convenience. It's convenient not to have to carry a laptop, pocket calculator, travel alarm, voice recorder, etc but I would survive w/o a Treo.

    And as Bob-C indicated....why can't good, strong, workable apps be included?
    I prefer that they don't because I don't want to pay $700 for my Treo when I can pay $600 (before whatever discounts). The POS Treo comes with 30 or so apps, which ones don't you find "strong and workable"

    Does it really **** you off that much that windows comes with Media Player?
    Yes, I am entitled to fair use of any material I have purchased and WMP interferes with that. It also eats up space on my HD, steals CPU cycles with hidden API's and is likely to cause conflicts when using other media players. Used to be Windows install components let YOU decide what "extras" to add, why can't MS be content with that ? Why is that In have the "option" of installing "handicapped access" functions but I don't have the option for MSIE, Outlook, WMP ? Imagine me designing a building and giving the owner the option of making the building handicapped accessible but telling him, he can only have the mailboxes, phone service, and surveillance system I specify....or betetr yet that he can selcted other choices but his mailboxes would have to be installed along side my mailboxes, his phone service would be a dupe of mine and that his surveillance system may not work well with mine installed but that's tough. On the POS Treo, you can yank RP outta the ROM and replace it with P-Tunes, does MS allow that ?

    So, please, explain the rationale behind "use Treo as it is, outta the box...you'll be fine...why do you NEED the other apps anyhow??" because I just dont get it.....
    I don't recall ever seeing that postulation posted. There's a huge difference between installing an application and an OS hack. The questions I suggest before hacking any OS is:

    Does it have a real, proven benefit ?
    Is that benefit worth any potential downsides ?
    Does the hack result in any instability ?
    Will the hack cause any conflicts ?

    For example, installing PClite and removing MSIE on a Win98 machine resulted in a 30% or so increase in Adobe Pagemaker speed. In Win98 those answers were yes / yes / no / no ....all good answers. MS has since done their best to make it very difficult to remove the bundled apps and to make sure there is a downside to doing so.

    Now the introduction of NVFS threw a lot of developers for a loop. Many programs which had stability issues with the initial releases, have since resolved them giving futher evidence that it's not the OS but the developer's unfamiliarity with it that was at the root of the issue.

    When people talk about "outta da box" , it's a starting point for diagnostics. If it works outta da box, then we gotta see which program or combination of programs is causing the problem. Some older programs caused a stability issue on their own. Other programs cause a stability problem only in combination when a speciifc other program is present.

    Design is a series of tradeoffs. To hit a given price point, one can only fit so much performance, features, etc into a device. Adding more means either the price goes up and / or something esle has gotta go. I don't complain because my 3.5 laptop can't do what my desktop can do because they were not designed with the same goals in mind.
  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob-C
    ..the minimum memory requirements for NT 4.0 workstation was only 16 MB!! Half of what a 650 or 600 has!!!
    Putting aside the direct NT comparison, the way the Treo ALLOCATES that memory seems to be a huge piece of the problem - only about 20-22MB available for:
    * all applications and databases that need to be in RAM
    * crucial DBCache
    * "breathing room" of at least 2-3MB if you ever want to run any of your OTHER apps off the card (where at least they fit!).

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob-C
    And the minimum requirement for the NEXT version, Windows 2000, was only 32 MB!! The Treo 600 and 650 both have 32 MB of memory. So why do you think you would need to strap a multi gig hard drive to anything?
    Anyone who works with Windows knows the difference between "minimum" requirements and "recommended" requirements.

    Your analogy seems honest on the surface, but here's the real rub: In a "Windows" box - you can usually add much more RAM to allow for the requirements of your particular programs. On a Treo, you just don't have that luxury - you are stuck with the "RAM" that Palm has hardwired into the Treo (even if you tried replacing the chip, it's apparently a limitation they built into the firmware).

    Palm built the Treo with a "minimum" of RAM, even after knowing it was too little on the Treo 600! Since you can't upgrade the RAM to appropriate levels on a Treo, you're stuck trying to make the "minimum" RAM work in all circumstances. Heck, even the web browser Palm has supplied with the 650 "bombs out" of memory on many "average" web pages... How many NT systems do that?

    I think the catch-22 complaints that the original poster communicates are very well put. I like the Treo 650, but it has a lot of problems that need to be put in the daylight so that Palm doesn't try repeating them a THIRD time.
    Treo 755s in good condition available on ebay for $50-$75. No need to pay for insurance or buy a Pre.
  5. toofgoo's Avatar
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    #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    I don't think anyone is saying that. I think what they are saying is use all the 3rd party apps you need to accomplish what you want to accomplish. OS Hacks on the other hand, the question should be asked "Do I really need this ?" and "Will it cause a conflict ?
    Good point, agreed.



    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    MS doesn't make it OS acceptable to other applications....XP SP2 broke over 200 of them. Again, their is a big difference between installing a porgram and hacking the OS. On WM5 you simply don't hack the OS, you can make registry tweaks but how many basic OS functions can you rip out and replace with something else ? Let's look again at MS..... I can install Mozilla but can I remove IE ?....well yes and no.....if I remove IE I also lose MS Help, Windows Update and can no longer install programs like Quickbooks and AutoCAD.
    Here again, unless I am missing your point, I do not agree. If MS didn't make it's OS acceptable to other applications, well then, they would be out of business. As far as XP breaking apps...as did OSX, et. all...is this due to the fault of the OS? No. It's due to a fundamental change in the industry that was calling for different file formats, etc.


    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    I don't think anyone will disagree with that. But if I install for example XP-antispy or PClite to rip out or change basic OS functions that MS designed, can I then complain to MS and say their OS sux ?
    Agreed, you cannot. We, or at least I, seem to be mixing ADDING of 3rd party software and actual system/OS hacks and mods.



    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    There's a difference between "want" and "need". After a couple of hours working in the yard, I might say "I need a beer". But I don't "need" a beer, I want a beer. I need food, water shelter, etc. I may want caviar, Don Perignon and a mansion but I don't "need" them in order to survive. In then Treos case we aren't talking survive physically but survive economically. Can I do what I "need to do" to do my job without an mp3 player on my Treo ? The answer is gonne be yes a hell of alot more often than it's going to be no. Having mp3 may be something I want or it may add to my enjoyment but that's soemthingw e want, not something we need. I need a bat to play baseball with the kids, I don't "need" uniforms.

    I certainly don't "need" a Treo, I think few people could successfully argue that they do. I do need to communicate while away from the office but carrying a Treo is simply a convenience. It's convenient not to have to carry a laptop, pocket calculator, travel alarm, voice recorder, etc but I would survive w/o a Treo.
    Now you've been doing a great job of debating your points until this....no need for semantical arguments is there? I agree...I only NEED water, food, shelter and air. HOWEVER, if only wanted a telephone, I would buy a telephone. If I want 4 wheels and an engine...I can buy a Metro. I choose to purchase a Treo or I choose to purchase a BMW/Ford/Lexus, etc because I WANT those added features and abilities to do more. So, yes, in the case of my purchasing a Treo, I NEED it to play mp3s...I NEED it to open Word docs, etc because that's what I NEED that device to do.



    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    I prefer that they don't because I don't want to pay $700 for my Treo when I can pay $600 (before whatever discounts). The POS Treo comes with 30 or so apps, which ones don't you find "strong and workable"
    I did not make myself clear, and for that I apologize. I did not mean a ton of apps added that push up the price god knows I would object. What I meant was inherit apps that work and do what they should and to the extent that most people would like. Example: (I'll avoid our semantical argument from earlier) RealPlayer has a significant less amount of functionality then, say, PTunes. Again, I go to Apple/Windows. The inherit functionality of iTunes or WMP is at a level where most people are going to get more than they need. IMHO these are both strong apps that work well with the OS. They do not cause crashes, etc. Example: I am pleased as punch with the gui (I use this as a generic term to mean the ability to launch apps, see files, etc) in Windows/KDE/Apple...BUT, I have also ran other "guis" that fit either on top of these or in addition too and they have not caused me issue.



    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    Yes, I am entitled to fair use of any material I have purchased and WMP interferes with that. It also eats up space on my HD, steals CPU cycles with hidden API's and is likely to cause conflicts when using other media players. Used to be Windows install components let YOU decide what "extras" to add, why can't MS be content with that ? Why is that In have the "option" of installing "handicapped access" functions but I don't have the option for MSIE, Outlook, WMP ? Imagine me designing a building and giving the owner the option of making the building handicapped accessible but telling him, he can only have the mailboxes, phone service, and surveillance system I specify....or betetr yet that he can selcted other choices but his mailboxes would have to be installed along side my mailboxes, his phone service would be a dupe of mine and that his surveillance system may not work well with mine installed but that's tough. On the POS Treo, you can yank RP outta the ROM and replace it with P-Tunes, does MS allow that ?
    In short, yes, MS does. Again, we seem to start treading into "uber-geek" land that seems to be the general residence of folks like you and me and many others. YES, I can hack my ROM and remove RP. YES, I can do all of those things. Lawyer Bill down the street? Probably not. Doctor Pete on the other side of town? Again, no. So you and I and countless others can make PalmOS do what we want...we can make Apple, MS, Gentoo, Ubuntu do what we want. We have those gifts/training/"***** savante" abilities.

    But here's the difference. Although I CAN, I dont want too. Neither does Joe Blow the truck driver that wants to stay in touch with his family, listen to tunes and whatever else while he is on the road. Windows works. Apple works. Ubuntu works. It gives us the platform, it gives us the basic tools (more so than what most "normal" people will ever use) and it lets us add the more exciting, technical, "super charged", and mundane if we want/need/desire/wish it to.

    And yes, I know, I know. Windows doesn't work. But please, I tire easily and someone singing the praises of Linux/Unix one more time will make me slip into a deep dark coma that only the beauty and "moron-gui" of the blessed mother in Redmond will ever wake me up from.



    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    I don't recall ever seeing that postulation posted. There's a huge difference between installing an application and an OS hack. The questions I suggest before hacking any OS is:

    Does it have a real, proven benefit ?
    Is that benefit worth any potential downsides ?
    Does the hack result in any instability ?
    Will the hack cause any conflicts ?

    For example, installing PClite and removing MSIE on a Win98 machine resulted in a 30% or so increase in Adobe Pagemaker speed. In Win98 those answers were yes / yes / no / no ....all good answers. MS has since done their best to make it very difficult to remove the bundled apps and to make sure there is a downside to doing so.

    Now the introduction of NVFS threw a lot of developers for a loop. Many programs which had stability issues with the initial releases, have since resolved them giving futher evidence that it's not the OS but the developer's unfamiliarity with it that was at the root of the issue.

    When people talk about "outta da box" , it's a starting point for diagnostics. If it works outta da box, then we gotta see which program or combination of programs is causing the problem. Some older programs caused a stability issue on their own. Other programs cause a stability problem only in combination when a speciifc other program is present.

    Design is a series of tradeoffs. To hit a given price point, one can only fit so much performance, features, etc into a device. Adding more means either the price goes up and / or something esle has gotta go. I don't complain because my 3.5 laptop can't do what my desktop can do because they were not designed with the same goals in mind.
    Again...I must not be presenting myself well. Again, I apologize. Yes, most of the talk, to me, seemed to present itself along the lines of..."palmOS is just fine...use it. If you want more, go get it but good luck". That's just not a solution to me, Jack. I can't accept that. And yes, I am aware of the tradeoffs. But, in the case of this thread, in what I believe Bob to be saying...we feel cheated that we got the low end of those tradeoffs. I can tradeoff everything you are saying...and run DOS or, god forbid, Linux. Or, I can accept the "problems" and run Windows/OSX. I choose the latter. And, you know what? It hasn't hurt me yet. PalmOS has.

    In closing...thank you Jack. I love a free exchange of ideas and you have presented yourself well. Obviously, this all boils down to "he said-he said" or "quit yer *****in and buy a different device", but it's nice to know we can still debate this out.

    One more thing...and this is not pointed at you, Jack. I find it HI-larious to hear so many people sing the praises of PalmOS and that in all its base forms how great it is. They go on and on and condemn those that dare speak out against it. In turn, they condemn MS. They criticize the masses that use the "great satan" in Washington state. They dance naked around the fire that is Linux/Unix/OS2Warp (god I hope not) and look down on all others that dont follow their lead. Just insane. Working in IT I have to hear folks all the time comment on "uh-oh...here comes toofgoo...he's in IT, ya know? He's gonna rip on you for being a moron and using Windows". I DONT! I LOVE windows...I want that easy, fun to use feeling. So, to all you "gate-hate" folks (witty, huh?) just leave us alone...we don't really give a rats arse about how great a shell command is or your root access...I know, I know...that's probably the wrong terminology

    DAMN...off topic there at the end...sorry all.
  6. #46  
    Joad:

    I do not agree that the Treo 650 does not have enough storage. I have tons of programs on mine and still have over 10 MB free. I haven't even bothered to move Docs to Go to my SD card, either. Not to mention the extra space on my 1 GB SD card!
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  7. wbwjr's Avatar
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    #47  
    Your post (Bob-C) is exactly why I moved from a 650 to a palm T/X and a Razr V3c. I do miss the Treo. I may look at it again when the 700p comes out but I will definitely wait for all the bugs to be worked out.
  8. #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by toofgoo
    Here again, unless I am missing your point, I do not agree. If MS didn't make it's OS acceptable to other applications, well then, they would be out of business..
    I have again not heard of an application "breaking" the Treo. It would seem that Treo app problems come from 2 things:

    1. System hacks
    2. Memory overloads - I have run a 100 MB downlaod, burned a CD, opened autocad, ripped some mps's and some other tasks simultaneously ona desktop and soemtimes I can crash it but the only time I can do all that effectively is with SCSI hard drives where a lot of the disk related overhead is done on the SCSI card and not by windows. If you wanna run Chatter, Ptunes, EDGE and TomTom all in combination, soemthing gonna tumble down.

    Example: (I'll avoid our semantical argument from earlier) RealPlayer has a significant less amount of functionality then, say, PTunes.
    I think PT just decided to stick Palm with a bit more of a license fee this time around and so Palm decided to go with RP. Personally RP serves me fine but that's certainly something we have seen MS do before. MSconfig appears in every other OS for example. The disk defragger, system restore function an d lots of other utilities are "lite" versions of commercial products.

    Windows works. Apple works. Ubuntu works. It gives us the platform, it gives us the basic tools (more so than what most "normal" people will ever use) and it lets us add the more exciting, technical, "super charged", and mundane if we want/need/desire/wish it to.
    What specifically is it that you want the Treo to do that it doesn't ?

    Again...I must not be presenting myself well. Again, I apologize. Yes, most of the talk, to me, seemed to present itself along the lines of..."palmOS is just fine...use it. If you want more, go get it but good luck"....And, you know what? It hasn't hurt me yet. PalmOS has.
    Again, I can't really 'see ya point" unless I know what you wanna do here. Is there something else out there that does what you want ? Certainly not WM5 which can't seem to sync, or where you can't even do a remote wipe without havinge xchange server.

    In closing...thank you Jack. I love a free exchange of ideas and you have presented yourself well.
    I am enjoying the exchange as well. If left ytou our own preconceived notions we don't learn very much.

    As for the end part, my beef is that it is intentionally made less than it could be. I could be made smaller, snappier, modular, more useful, more flexible. I think MS would have been much more viable as two companies....and OS company and an applications company. Then they could both work on geting the best product out the door and spend less time trying to give each otehr e leg up economically. It's not that they can't do this....it's that they intentionally choose not to do this.
  9. #49  
    Big a round of applause to Jack and Toofgoo for making the appropriate points. I am not a MS basher. In fact, I used the MPX200 and IPaq until my company made us switch to Palm. All I am pointing out is that EVERY OS has limitations, overhead and shortcomings. That's why XP is on a multiple Service Pack schedule.
    So if you don't think the Palm OS has what you need, go get it, but if you add crapware, because it's free or really cheap, don't blame the OS for the resulting crashes. It's been pointed out by many that there are numerous apps that run stable and consistently in the Palm OS. There are more that will reset your Treo every 10 minutes.

    The other point that needs to be made is MS has the advantage of not having to build the hardware. Palm had to create the PDA, the phone, the convergence of which is not a minor task, and then be sure the firmware and software were kind to each other in this hostile environment. It's not perfect. The keys could be friendlier, the volume could be better, it certainly could use more RAM (probably could have been added for the cost of the fancy packaging). But they did a better job creating a multi-purpose unit than Blackberry, Apple, Moto, Audiovox, HP or several others. Not perfect, not the ultimate, but for the price, very good.
  10. toofgoo's Avatar
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    #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    I have again not heard of an application "breaking" the Treo. It would seem that Treo app problems come from 2 things:

    1. System hacks
    2. Memory overloads - I have run a 100 MB downlaod, burned a CD, opened autocad, ripped some mps's and some other tasks simultaneously ona desktop and soemtimes I can crash it but the only time I can do all that effectively is with SCSI hard drives where a lot of the disk related overhead is done on the SCSI card and not by windows. If you wanna run Chatter, Ptunes, EDGE and TomTom all in combination, soemthing gonna tumble down.
    Just recently Butler cause my system to crash and wipe my prefs (?) file...no other app was, at that point, on the system to cause such an issue.

    Too, I have seen much documentation on this board that an app will "break" the Treo. I will give you that many of these have resulted in what you spoke to above, but, still, several are the result of a 3rd party app that is not meant as a "hack", but an application to run.



    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    I think PT just decided to stick Palm with a bit more of a license fee this time around and so Palm decided to go with RP. Personally RP serves me fine but that's certainly something we have seen MS do before. MSconfig appears in every other OS for example. The disk defragger, system restore function an d lots of other utilities are "lite" versions of commercial products.
    You are probably correct. RP, unfortunately, does not serve me as well. And the point here would be that if WMP didnt serve me, I could install WinAmp, etc. Obviously this can be done with PalmOS...but even PTunes has been known to crash the OS.



    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    What specifically is it that you want the Treo to do that it doesn't ?
    Not so much what the Treo doesnt do, but its OS abilities. I expect a device of this stature to have the same capable software that I would find on a PC and would expect that I would have the same ease of use to install additional software without the worry and hesitation that it could "damage" my os.



    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    I am enjoying the exchange as well. If left ytou our own preconceived notions we don't learn very much.

    As for the end part, my beef is that it is intentionally made less than it could be. I could be made smaller, snappier, modular, more useful, more flexible. I think MS would have been much more viable as two companies....and OS company and an applications company. Then they could both work on geting the best product out the door and spend less time trying to give each otehr e leg up economically. It's not that they can't do this....it's that they intentionally choose not to do this.
    Well said, indeed!
  11. toofgoo's Avatar
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    #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by jimmybob
    Big a round of applause to Jack and Toofgoo for making the appropriate points. I am not a MS basher. In fact, I used the MPX200 and IPaq until my company made us switch to Palm. All I am pointing out is that EVERY OS has limitations, overhead and shortcomings. That's why XP is on a multiple Service Pack schedule.
    So if you don't think the Palm OS has what you need, go get it, but if you add crapware, because it's free or really cheap, don't blame the OS for the resulting crashes. It's been pointed out by many that there are numerous apps that run stable and consistently in the Palm OS. There are more that will reset your Treo every 10 minutes.

    The other point that needs to be made is MS has the advantage of not having to build the hardware. Palm had to create the PDA, the phone, the convergence of which is not a minor task, and then be sure the firmware and software were kind to each other in this hostile environment. It's not perfect. The keys could be friendlier, the volume could be better, it certainly could use more RAM (probably could have been added for the cost of the fancy packaging). But they did a better job creating a multi-purpose unit than Blackberry, Apple, Moto, Audiovox, HP or several others. Not perfect, not the ultimate, but for the price, very good.
    Thank you...but is that an advantage? Apple does both and do them very well.....
  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by toofgoo
    Just recently Butler cause my system to crash and wipe my prefs (?) file...no other app was, at that point, on the system to cause such an issue.
    Butler is probably the most noted app with this issue. See my post here:

    http://discussion.treocentral.com/sh...d.php?t=110167

    But this "app" attempts to replace a lot of built in OS functionality with regards to LED's, alternate keyguard, etc. which I think is the source of the problem. However, in all fairness, tehre's many people who say Butler works fine for them so I am assuming it's one of those "conflict" situations where depending on your ROM, settings or otehr apps, something is bumping heads.

    Too, I have seen much documentation on this board that an app will "break" the Treo. I will give you that many of these have resulted in what you spoke to above, but, still, several are the result of a 3rd party app that is not meant as a "hack", but an application to run.
    I can't recall that many of these. I think most of the problems arose from old OS4 apps reconfigured....or should I say not quite correctly configured to run on OS5.

    Not so much what the Treo doesnt do, but its OS abilities. I expect a device of this stature to have the same capable software that I would find on a PC and would expect that I would have the same ease of use to install additional software without the worry and hesitation that it could "damage" my os.
    I think that's expecting too much. The resources just aren't there to be able to handle that much. The game EDGE for example is an amazing accomplishment for the palm platform....it eats up every available iota of system resources and if I play long enough I can freeze the device. I could complain, but to stop the freezes the game would have had to have been substantially curtailed. My guess is that when an alarm wants to **** in or I have TA scheduled to turn off the radio, EDGE just doesn't want to release the resources to do so. You have:

    5.3 MB of RAM to play with
    23 MB of "hard drive" space.
    about 11 MB of "cache" space

    And the rest is ROM. I think what we have here is talented program developers trying to do a whole lot of functionality with that small amoubnt of resources and soemtimes those resources are gonna come up short.
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    #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    Butler is probably the most noted app with this issue. See my post here:

    http://discussion.treocentral.com/sh...d.php?t=110167

    But this "app" attempts to replace a lot of built in OS functionality with regards to LED's, alternate keyguard, etc. which I think is the source of the problem. However, in all fairness, tehre's many people who say Butler works fine for them so I am assuming it's one of those "conflict" situations where depending on your ROM, settings or otehr apps, something is bumping heads.
    True, so, I guess that could be seen as a "hack" in some instances, thus causing the resets, etc that we would see. But then, that brings me back to my original thought that if PalmOS had some of those abilities that Butler and/or PhoneTechnician brings to the table we wouldn't need that.



    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    I can't recall that many of these. I think most of the problems arose from old OS4 apps reconfigured....or should I say not quite correctly configured to run on OS5.
    VERY true. However, even documents to go, new versions, can and will cause OS issues. These issues would seem, to me at least, to be acceptable if they merely blew out the app, but by doing that they, in turn, cause issues in the OS. I have had issues where FireFox would "explode", yet do no harm to the OS it was on...same idea, for me.



    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    I think that's expecting too much. The resources just aren't there to be able to handle that much. The game EDGE for example is an amazing accomplishment for the palm platform....it eats up every available iota of system resources and if I play long enough I can freeze the device. I could complain, but to stop the freezes the game would have had to have been substantially curtailed. My guess is that when an alarm wants to **** in or I have TA scheduled to turn off the radio, EDGE just doesn't want to release the resources to do so. You have:

    5.3 MB of RAM to play with
    23 MB of "hard drive" space.
    about 11 MB of "cache" space

    And the rest is ROM. I think what we have here is talented program developers trying to do a whole lot of functionality with that small amoubnt of resources and soemtimes those resources are gonna come up short.
    Agreed, and I think what I wrote did not sum what I meant. I didn't really mean Windows/Apple/Linux apps running on PalmOS. That is ENTIRELY not even in the ballpark of what to expect. What I was driving as was that if these OS' can come with overly-capable software and allow the addition of other software without being a crap-shoot, then I expect that on the Palm platform, with palm software and 3rd party apps meant to run on the Palm.

    Please, don't anyone think that I dont love my Treo...I do. Thats why I keep it and work either with or around these issues. I just expect more. I mean, were not in the infancy of this product, but are into a decade of what should be progession and constant improvement. I would like basic, all inclusive apps to be included on the OS and would like 3rd party apps to not be such a mystery as to what will happen. It just doesnt sit well with me.

    I remember when I got my T|C. Loved it. Built-in WiFi. I remember people complaining that it didn't include BT...understandable but I looked the other way on that....and then...found out that it only produced mono sound (no stereo). That just floored me. I couldn't believe that a device that cost that much money wouldnt have that (what I see as) small capability, yet the Zire did. Most frustrating? The folks on message boards back then that responded "you're crazy. This is a BUSINESS device. It would be ludicrous to put that on a BUSINESS device." And now, a few years later, I see the same lackadaisical attitude from PalmOS developers. I just think PalmOS could be the king of the hill, but it just won't happen until these things are addressed.
  14. #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by toofgoo
    True, so, I guess that could be seen as a "hack" in some instances, thus causing the resets, etc that we would see. But then, that brings me back to my original thought that if PalmOS had some of those abilities that Butler and/or PhoneTechnician brings to the table we wouldn't need that.
    So wait, now you want PalmOS to include features that cause your phone to reset?
  15. toofgoo's Avatar
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    #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by scyber
    So wait, now you want PalmOS to include features that cause your phone to reset?
    Touche....
  16. #56  
    Martini anyone? -LOL
    "Everyday is a Gift, A Blessing, An Opportunity!" - GM

    Phone history: Treo 600, Treo 650, Treo Centro, Pixi, Centro again, 800w, Treo 755p, Palm Pre
  17. #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkY
    Jeff is full of philosophy today . However, the points he makes are good. I've got a ton of apps on my 650 and it's very stable, but I have had to weed out a lot that were not written properly for the device. That's one reason I won't jump to the 700p as soon as it comes out. I want to enjoy my Treo's peaceful existence for a while.
    This is the point!. Mark, I'm in your absolutely same position!! My Treo 650 has been very stable and reliable for 2-3 months now...........but after 8-9 months!!! This is not acceptable and I won't never buy a Palm product, even if I consider them the best!!

    Is it the same with WM devices??
    Ciao.
    Vittore
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    HS Treo 180 -> HS Treo 270 -> Palm Treo 650 GSM (1.71-1.20ENA Custom) + Treo BT Headset + TomTom 5.201 & Holux GPS 236 BT Slim
  18. #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by H2O_Goalie
    I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't add programs. But blaming Palm for subsequent system instability seems a bit silly. You knew the OS you were buying when you bought the Treo. You decided you needed additional functionality. At that point, you should have either taken the Treo back and bought something else, or you should accept responsibility for any stability issues.
    I do not agree with you because Palm devices have always been advertized as "expandible with tons of 3rd party sw". In the past years it has been as an advantage over Symbian and WM. "Palm is highly customizable cause off hundreds of high quality 3rd party sw developer" Am I wrong?

    In my opinion a good OS has to be stable also with buggy sw, crashing them and not the entire OS.
    Ciao.
    Vittore
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    HS Treo 180 -> HS Treo 270 -> Palm Treo 650 GSM (1.71-1.20ENA Custom) + Treo BT Headset + TomTom 5.201 & Holux GPS 236 BT Slim
  19. #59  
    I have to admit, I enjoy playing with my Treo. I guess you have two choices:

    1. Use a stable, stock Treo that does lots of stuff.

    2. Install lots of apps on your Treo and learn how to keep it stable while running the apps.

    I have spent hundreds of hours, I'm sure, playing with my Treo, trying new apps, uninstalling them, hard resetting, restoring from backup, playing with custom ROMs, etc. I actually enjoy it. I would much rather have a Treo to play with, than have a Blackberry that has few options.

    However, I work with people who use a stock Treo 650 every day and they are happy. They just use the phone, email, calendar, and a little internet and they are happy.
    NiceGPSuperior1 is a free GPS program, now with the ability to save your map! Get more info here. It's free! If you like this app and want to encourage development, you can donate from the web page link.

    NiceDrudgeReader is a fast, simple reader for The Drudge Report. It is only $0.99, so check it out, too! More info here.

    Search for "Nice" in the app catalog to see all my apps.
  20. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by toofgoo
    True, so, I guess that could be seen as a "hack" in some instances, thus causing the resets, etc that we would see. But then, that brings me back to my original thought that if PalmOS had some of those abilities that Butler and/or PhoneTechnician brings to the table we wouldn't need that.
    In many instances, I think peeps out of habit from earlier devices and OS's have a mindset that every hack, doohikey or whatever they "needed" with older stuff , they feel they need now without trying to actually see if they do.

    KB lights for example. I really don't think a hack is neded to turn the KB lights off with the 650....maybe on the 600 or other devices but not with the 650. Palm may have said, maybe we should provide this option and then after emasuring the impact said, sheesh, it cuts battery life by 9 minutes after 3 days, why bother. I get a week out of it between battery charges w/o a KB hack. Of course I am not retrieving e-mail every 5 minutes which is probbaly the biggest drain that the Treo experiences.

    What I was driving as was that if these OS' can come with overly-capable software and allow the addition of other software without being a crap-shoot, then I expect that on the Palm platform, with palm software and 3rd party apps meant to run on the Palm.
    I think the problem lies in that 5.3 MB of RAM. Every byte the OS uses is less available to programs. So if they set it up to run programs in separate memory space, then that gets parceled down even further. I think it's just the "nature of teh ebats", until you have soem memory to store the OS control functions you want, and still leave all that's needed for the popular big Palm programs, you gotta up the amount of memory provided.

    I would like basic, all inclusive apps to be included on the OS and would like 3rd party apps to not be such a mystery as to what will happen. It just doesnt sit well with me.
    I have no objection to them being on the CD. Thro Butler on tehre if ya want, but I don't wanna pay for it and I definitely don't want to wind up with a Treo w/ Butler forced on me.

    I remember when I got my T|C. Loved it. Built-in WiFi. I remember people complaining that it didn't include BT...understandable but I looked the other way on that....and then...found out that it only produced mono sound (no stereo). That just floored me. I couldn't believe that a device that cost that much money wouldnt have that (what I see as) small capability, yet the Zire did.
    That one I don't understand in two different ways. It seems that it's no big deal to go from a $11 monaural sound system to a $14 stereo subsystem so why not ? OTOH, I just can't listen to music coming outta a $14 sound system w/o grinding my teeth.
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