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  1.    #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by jbinbi
    Don't want to say PalmOS is good by saying WM is bad, I haven't used it, but have read quite a few of the threads on the Palm700w, and it really sounds like the stability of the OS on that device is much worse than POS on 650.

    Should we accept mediocrity? Heck no! Could POS be better? Absofrickinglutely!

    With that said, I personally use the Palm first as a phone, then for all the other features I didn't want to carry 14 devices for. If it didn't have this capability, most of us would be carrying around a phone, a pda, a camera, a mp3 player, etc. If you really need pictures, then you really need a camera, not a camera phone. If you really want your music categorized, synced to computer, you should have an ipod, etc.

    But for me, this phone has been pretty darn stable for the apps I have on it. For its features, it sounds like its much more stable than lots of other alternatives.

    I will agree that maybe it should have more included. I for one am really torqued that it doesn't come with voice dialing sw; my kids $25 clamshell has it! But how much more would it be to get this. I am sure rather than us paying $30 for each app, palm could cut a licensing deal to put this on every phone! Maybe it would cost $2 more to Palm? I would pay $425 vs. the $399 I paid, if it had 10 more 'upgraded' apps standard. I figure I am already paying lots for the phone, and lots more per month for the service. I assume most palm users are not like the clients who purchase a $25 phone with minimal service.

    I am also not saying that Palm should leave the OS alone, and not try to improve it. But take that darn anetena protrusion off, add EVDO, add some more free memory, call it a 700p, and you have my PO.

    Sorry I didn't quote Buddha, Confuscious, Christ, Moses, Lincoln, Marx or any other luminaries;-)

    Thank you!!! Saying WM is bad does NOT make PalmOS good. I have no problem saying it if you please. WM IS BAD!! WM IS BAD!! WM IS BAD!! WM IS BAD!! WM IS BAD!! WM IS BAD!! WM IS BAD!! WM IS BAD!! WM IS BAD!! WM IS BAD!! WM IS BAD!! WM IS BAD!! WM IS BAD!! WM IS BAD!! WM IS BAD!! WM IS BAD!! WM IS BAD!! WM IS BAD!! WM IS BAD!! WM IS BAD!! WM IS BAD!!

    I can say it all I want and mean it. But it doesn't make PalmOS any more stable.
    ROOTING for WebOS makes me more sympathetic to Cubs fans.
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob-C
    First of all the plumbing is NOT completely different. That is why Garnet has been running on Palm devices for how many years now? Please tell me! My 600 had it, my 650 has it and darn for sure the 700p will have it.

    And heck! I'll take Firefox on a Treo in a heartbeat!! No argument there. Are you comparing Blazer to Firefox?!? If you think Blazer is as good as Firefox then your insane. All I'm saying is that the IE browser on Windows Mobile - while not as good as Firefox - still laughs in perfomance at Blazer. Please tell me you don't think Blazer is as good as Firefox because that is what it sounds like. And that is insane!!
    I challenge you to get Garnet to run on a legacy device. It's totally different. I write code. Do you?

    No one's saying Blazer is as good as anything else. You are the one who mentioned that WM is superior because it has IE. IE Mobile sucks just like Blazer. I had so many crashes, you had to put airbags on the Ipaq. Now, just try to uninstall Explorer from WM. Dare ya. I'm saying everything is relative. You need about 4 devices... A new phone that's just a phone, a digicam that's just a cam, an MP3 player, and an email device (Blackberry is a great 1 trick pony).
  3. #23  
    I have to quantify my previous statement by saying that I have never used WM in a smartphone. Just a PDA. So, the stability issues may be similar in a smartphone.

    I just dont think the 700w is enough to make me switch back to WM, nor do i believe the 700p will be enough to make me upgrade.
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob-C
    You either just contradicted yourself or you're a thief. Because no one says they don't want to pay for extra applications included in the OS and then BUYS 76 after the fact. In all likelihood you are ripping off software developers.
    Perhaps a little hesitation and thought before posting would mean less embarassment. The fact is TrackerDog reports 76 apps on my Treo. A good 30% of them are in ROM as every function of the basic phone runs as an app. Many of them are also free:

    Adobe Reader
    Calculator
    Calendar
    camera
    QuickTour
    Contacts
    Crash
    dbScan
    Dataviz tech tool
    The Docs2Go suite (4 programs ?)
    Directory Assistant
    FlightStatus
    FileZ
    FleProg
    HotSyn
    hal9000
    GetGood
    Media
    memInfo
    memos
    Messaging
    Metro
    Minibar
    mReset
    Opera
    Blazer
    Palm Internals
    PalmPDF
    PocketCalculator
    Phone
    palmPuke
    Prefs
    ResetEMU
    Printme
    RealPalyer
    SharkLinks
    security
    SimBook
    Simservcies
    Snap
    Solitaire
    SIMservcies
    SoundRec
    sounds
    STOIC
    taxi
    tasks
    TCPMP
    Thumbscan
    TideTool
    TiPro
    TrackerDog
    TVBrowser
    U2U
    VFS mark
    VideoJigsaw
    Versamail
    Welcome
    WordClock
    ZAP

    That accounts for 65 or so with not a penny spent.....apology accepted.

    That is correct! Protected mode HAS been around since NT4. But the minimum memory requirements for NT 4.0 workstation was only 16 MB!! Half of what a 650 or 600 has!!! And the minimum requirement for the NEXT version, Windows 2000, was only 32 MB!! The Treo 600 and 650 both have 32 MB of memory. So why do you think you would need to strap a multi gig hard drive to anything?
    You need to do some familiarization with Treo's memory structure and memory in general

    http://www.red-mercury.com/nvfs.html
    http://www.resco.net/palm/explorer/NVFS.htm
    http://www.grack.com/blog/articles/2...ory-management


    The Treo has 32 MB of "hard disk" storage and 32 MB of RAM. As can be seen from the graphic in the last link, the 1st 32 MB contains your ROM and Program storage...the equivalent of the PC's hard disk. The 1st part of the 2nd chip represents the ROM being loaded into memory. The 2nd part, is the equivalent of the remainder of PC's RAM .....a small 5.3 MB portion in chip 2. The last part of the 2nd chip would best be compared to the PC's paging or swap file on hard disk.

    So , in essence, the Treo has about 16MB of memory, after loading the ROM, it has 5.3 MB left. Not quite as big as the 16 MB you attributing to NT4. Not that anyone would ecer actulayy purchase a NT box with 16 MB on it. Smallest I ever bought was 256. XP's so called minimum is 128 MB but try and actually do anything with XP with that amount. 512 MB is actually considered the base minimum (4 times MS's minimum) and if you wanna do anything more than Office Apps and browsing, 1 Gig is considered the min (8 times MS min.), 2 Gigs (16 times) if you do graphics or gaming....

    Let's look at MS's "official" NT4 requirements.

    # Pentium or faster processor 16 megabytes (MB) of memory (RAM); 32 MB recommended
    # 110 MB of available hard disk space

    So, with no hard drive, where you gonna fit that 110 MB on the Treo ? ... Let alone the programs to run on it ?
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob-C
    And BTW, I do like my 650. It has some pretty fine hardware. But just like Treo-mike I would like to be a consumer once again and not have to apply my Computer Science degree and Google searching skills to get my Treo to do the things I want.
    It would seem to me that there could be an opportunity here for someone to resell treos in a few standard configurations that would greatly simplify the experience into more of a turn-key solution. Maybe you could turn your frustration into a business opportunity.
    Who's flying this thing?
  6.    #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
    Perhaps a little hesitation and thought before posting would mean less embarassment. The fact is TrackerDog reports 76 apps on my Treo. A good 30% of them are in ROM as every function of the basic phone runs as an app. Many of them are also free:

    Adobe Reader
    Calculator
    Calendar
    camera
    QuickTour
    Contacts
    Crash
    dbScan
    Dataviz tech tool
    The Docs2Go suite (4 programs ?)
    Directory Assistant
    FlightStatus
    FileZ
    FleProg
    HotSyn
    hal9000
    GetGood
    Media
    memInfo
    memos
    Messaging
    Metro
    Minibar
    mReset
    Opera
    Blazer
    Palm Internals
    PalmPDF
    PocketCalculator
    Phone
    palmPuke
    Prefs
    ResetEMU
    Printme
    RealPalyer
    SharkLinks
    security
    SimBook
    Simservcies
    Snap
    Solitaire
    SIMservcies
    SoundRec
    sounds
    STOIC
    taxi
    tasks
    TCPMP
    Thumbscan
    TideTool
    TiPro
    TrackerDog
    TVBrowser
    U2U
    VFS mark
    VideoJigsaw
    Versamail
    Welcome
    WordClock
    ZAP

    That accounts for 65 or so with not a penny spent.....apology accepted.



    You need to do some familiarization with Treo's memory structure and memory in general

    http://www.red-mercury.com/nvfs.html
    http://www.resco.net/palm/explorer/NVFS.htm
    http://www.grack.com/blog/articles/2...ory-management


    The Treo has 32 MB of "hard disk" storage and 32 MB of RAM. As can be seen from the graphic in the last link, the 1st 32 MB contains your ROM and Program storage...the equivalent of the PC's hard disk. The 1st part of the 2nd chip represents the ROM being loaded into memory. The 2nd part, is the equivalent of the remainder of PC's RAM .....a small 5.3 MB portion in chip 2. The last part of the 2nd chip would best be compared to the PC's paging or swap file on hard disk.

    So , in essence, the Treo has about 16MB of memory, after loading the ROM, it has 5.3 MB left. Not quite as big as the 16 MB you attributing to NT4. Not that anyone would ecer actulayy purchase a NT box with 16 MB on it. Smallest I ever bought was 256. XP's so called minimum is 128 MB but try and actually do anything with XP with that amount. 512 MB is actually considered the base minimum (4 times MS's minimum) and if you wanna do anything more than Office Apps and browsing, 1 Gig is considered the min (8 times MS min.), 2 Gigs (16 times) if you do graphics or gaming....

    Let's look at MS's "official" NT4 requirements.

    # Pentium or faster processor 16 megabytes (MB) of memory (RAM); 32 MB recommended
    # 110 MB of available hard disk space

    So, with no hard drive, where you gonna fit that 110 MB on the Treo ? ... Let alone the programs to run on it ?
    I've run Windows 2000 workstation with 64 MB of memory and NT 4.0 Workstation with 32 MB and have no problem believing it would work in 16 MB. It was actually quite a common configuration back in the earlier days of my System Administrator career when I was loading, servicing them and passing MCP certifications on them. My Computer Science degree tells me you are not really clear on the difference and reasons as to why hard disk space and memory space requirements are two completely different things and that nothing on the Treo equates to a paging file because it doesn't virtual memory. BECAUSE IF IT DID HAVE VIRTUAL MEMORY, IT WOULD BE VERY EASY TO MAKE SURE IT DIDN'T CRASH BY JUST LIMITING AN APP TO IT'S OWN MEMORY SPACE!!! And I know from when I used to write OS system code that 110 MB's of disk space has nothing at all to do with just making sure that a program cannot write outside it's own memory space into protected memory. But hey, what do I know? Just keep quoting those treocentral threads and reading PC Magazine.
    Last edited by Bob-C; 04/04/2006 at 04:19 PM.
    ROOTING for WebOS makes me more sympathetic to Cubs fans.
  7. #27  
    When i was in school, i studied Unix, Linux, & Java just be well rounded. I always remember the kid who sat there re-arranging the files on his unix box during lecture. He use to tell us how ROCK SOLID his UNIX pc is, and how he never had to reboot, he was 100% secure, he never had memory issues, and he had no use for windows.

    Rock solid, the only problem was it didn't actually DO anything. He had a box with blinking lights and some text files to organize and parse through.
  8. #28  
    Just a thought:

    The OS capabilities have nothing to do with what software comes loaded on the device. The fact that 3rd party apps can play movies proves that the OS can do it.
    NiceGPSuperior1 is a free GPS program, now with the ability to save your map! Get more info here. It's free! If you like this app and want to encourage development, you can donate from the web page link.

    NiceDrudgeReader is a fast, simple reader for The Drudge Report. It is only $0.99, so check it out, too! More info here.

    Search for "Nice" in the app catalog to see all my apps.
  9. #29  
    I'm a little curious about the bitterness. Yes, it would certainly be nice if Palm updated the OS...there's no denying it. But Palm designed the OS (and the associated apps included in a factory fresh Treo) to work in a stable manner. Which, in my experience, they do. I have never had a Treo running only the default software reset. Adding software is making modifications to a specifically designed system.

    I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't add programs. But blaming Palm for subsequent system instability seems a bit silly. You knew the OS you were buying when you bought the Treo. You decided you needed additional functionality. At that point, you should have either taken the Treo back and bought something else, or you should accept responsibility for any stability issues.

    If you buy a Ford it comes in a default configuration and has a factory warranty. If you then proceed to drop it 3", add HID lights, a supercharger and nitrous...well, you just invalidated the factory warranty. And if you call Ford complaining that their car is unreliable, they'll laugh at you (rightly so), as would anyone sane. I view adding apps and gadgets to a Treo in much the same way.

    FWIW, I have a 650 with many additional apps and haven't had a reset in months that I didn't initiate pre-install of an additional app. I tend to line up with those that say crashes are the result of poorly written code...not a bad OS. A developer worth his/her salt takes into consideration the OS that the app will be running on...since there's no conceivable way that the OS developer can account for every app that might be run on the platform. If anything, the age of the Palm OS platform (i.e. things haven't changed in a long time) should have made it even easier for developers to write stable code as they don't have to take changes/patches/updates into consideration.
  10. blee4's Avatar
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    #30  
    Your absolutely right palm os is a steaming pile of sh*t. I've actually given up trying to make the palm behave the way I want by loading 3rd party apps that fix glaring usability flaws in the OS and just live with the fact that it's a steaming pile of sh*t. My previous palm was a Palm Vx and I didn't use that for atleast 4 years before I bought my 650 and when I got my 650 I just could not believe that they had literally change nothing. I currently use my 650 with just the base default apps that come with the Treo 650 and fill in the apps that it doesn't come with like a file manager or chat client. I use the default calendar and task manager. My only hope is that Apple comes out with a smart phone. The fact that you have threads like
    Absolute Treo Perfection-Accomplished! this user has clearly gone to alot of trouble to "test" each application to make sure that any combination does not cause a reboot fest they've also gone out of their way to tell you which apps go into memory and which run off the card is a clear testament of how unstable Palm OS can be. No to mention the countless custom rom thread to eeek as much memory as possible by removing usless palm applications. If you look at the posts there us a clear pattern to what apps are REMOVED from custom roms in order to save memory. All this to make a device function the way users want it to function. How about the countless number of hacks out theere volume care? buttler? that app that allows you to switch off the keyboard back light to save power? It's clear that palm has given developers access to these functions why the hell didn't they build it into the os themselves??? I mean come on power saving by turning off keyboard lights that aren't need is a common sense feature on a portable device is it not???? And what the hell happened to BlackBerry Support Push Email???? is it coming or not??? can you say broken promise?
    Last edited by blee4; 04/05/2006 at 06:33 AM.
  11. #31  
    Bob-C is correct in many respects. Palm OS Garnet is very long in the tooth. It relies almost entirely on the skills of the developer to ensure that his application is well behaved (doesn't overwrite its memory space, performs proper memory deallocations for every malloc, periodically give up resources to allow the OS to task switch). Many of these features like protected memory are automatically provided by a modern OS, even tiny microkernel based ones like Mach or QNX that take miniscule amounts of memory. Relying on the programmer simply increases the probability of mistakes and thereby the emergence of bugs in an application. To make things worse the development environment for PalmOS is ancient. Its a trip back in time to around 1997. Quite nostalgic, but not a recipe for productivity. Holy smoke who in the world still uses a resource editor to create the UI then link the resource file in?? Even Turbo Pascal had an integrated environment!
  12. #32  
    Point well taken, Schwartz. All valid. But the Palm supporters would argue that the Palm OS, although long in the tooth does what it is supposed to do...it is simple: no more than 2 clicks to perform a procedure. It is compact, unlike WM not bloatware, needing 64-128MB to run efficiently.
    Change is not necessarily progress. Adding stuff into the OS just for the sake of having it is a mistake. Microsoft has us all brainwashed in thinking that the next version of the OS should have more features than the last. So we end up with a second-rate defragger, second-rate browser, media player, firewall, and so on. We end up replacing them and the inherent conflicts slow our machines, even though they run in protected memory, they require CPU cycles.
    So I agree with you on the facts, but would respectfully disagree on the conclusions. Fact: Palm OS is old. Conclusion: Maybe that's OK.
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob-C
    And BTW, I do like my 650. It has some pretty fine hardware. But just like Treo-mike I would like to be a consumer once again and not have to apply my Computer Science degree and Google searching skills to get my Treo to do the things I want.
    While I don't agree with a lot in this thread - the quote above hit home. Yes I have a Treo 650 running all kinds of apps which works well - BUT I wouldn't recommend it to my family or friends - even those who are familiar with Palms. Just too much patience, technical knowledge, and trial-and-error needed to realize anything close to the full potential of the Treo...
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Kirvin
    I'm not always happy with Palm OS, but having used Windows Mobile for three years I can say that Palm OS is better than the alternative.
    Bingo. If you think that Palm OS is bas, try using a 6700 sometime. That phone is a complete piece of garbage. It's over a year newer than the 650 and can't do half of the things that the 650 can.

    PalmOS is far from perfect and WM MAY be the OS of the future, but PalmOS is still better right now. That's probably why Palm has sold an insane amount of 650s compared to all of the WM5 devices added together.

    After making my own custom ROM to strip out the garbage and increase my dbCache, my 650 never resets. Never.
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by jimmybob
    Point well taken, Schwartz. All valid. But the Palm supporters would argue that the Palm OS, although long in the tooth does what it is supposed to do...it is simple: no more than 2 clicks to perform a procedure. It is compact, unlike WM not bloatware, needing 64-128MB to run efficiently.
    Change is not necessarily progress. Adding stuff into the OS just for the sake of having it is a mistake. Microsoft has us all brainwashed in thinking that the next version of the OS should have more features than the last. So we end up with a second-rate defragger, second-rate browser, media player, firewall, and so on. We end up replacing them and the inherent conflicts slow our machines, even though they run in protected memory, they require CPU cycles.
    So I agree with you on the facts, but would respectfully disagree on the conclusions. Fact: Palm OS is old. Conclusion: Maybe that's OK.
    Why does everyone automatically assume that if someone puts down PalmOS it means that they're supporting WM? I dislike WM as much as you. Dislike of PalmOS <> Love of Windows Mobile.

    As for PalmOS, I think a lot of people also confuse the UI from the kernel underpinnings. The PalmOS GUI is unsurpassed. It is the pinnacle of PDA GUI design, referred to in some circles as the zen of Palm. However, it sits atop a creaky foundation. All some of us are asking for is to maintain the current GUI (with its inline editing, minimal clicks etc) but overhaul the underlying OS. It currently DOESN'T do everything I like. I'm not greedy, all I want is protected memory and preemptive multitasking.

    Now I know PalmSource has been dabbling with Linux, but personally I think that's just as bloated. That's the reason Nicolas Negroponte is not using Linux in his $100 laptop - its just too resource intensive.
  16. toofgoo's Avatar
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    #36  
    Although a huge fan of Palm OS AND WM....I can't see the argument in regards to "the system runs as it should, if you add software, that hurts it--good luck".

    Not acceptable. Let's use a real-world example, much like H2O Goalie did...

    Using this line of thought...Apple, Linux Distros, and Microsoft should, basically, tell us all to shod off and only use the OS. They could then indicate that they OS, out of the box with nothing added, runs GREAT! If you add software, you violated your license agreement and should be punished.

    Come on...that is not the real world. If Apple, Linux Distros, and Microsoft can make their OS acceptable of other applications, than why not Palm? The argument that many are making on here seems to boil down to, PalmOS works outta the box...don't screw with it, and you're fine.

    So...Let me use Apple...no iTunes install....no iWork or Office....no browser and thats good? No, no, no. An OS is built to allow a platform from which other applications can be added to perform tasks that you would need in your environment.

    Don't need mp3, Jack? GREAT! Guess what, I do. And there is ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong, odd, different, dumb, etc about that. I have no use for anytype of CAD program on my computer. But my friend does and uses it. THAT's the benefit of the OS...to run on your equipment and then you tailor to YOUR needs.

    I have an ipod...love it. But I want to have the ability to run mp3's on my 650. I have no use for anytype of vpn software, but there are, obviously, numerous individuals who do and install on the Treo. Palm, MS, Apple....they all should be bringing quality OS's to the table that allow us to further expand our computing experience...be that in a tech-savvy environment with heavy usage, or grandma who only needs to play Solitare.

    And as Bob-C indicated....why can't good, strong, workable apps be included? Does it really **** you off that much that windows comes with Media Player? Or that Apple comes with Safari?? Sure, I might not use Safari and opt for Opera...but, again, the OS should allow for that.

    So, please, explain the rationale behind "use Treo as it is, outta the box...you'll be fine...why do you NEED the other apps anyhow??" because I just dont get it.....
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob-C
    I've run Windows 2000 workstation with 64 MB of memory and NT 4.0 Workstation with 32 MB and have no problem believing it would work in 16 MB.
    You can boot it, just can't run programs......the Treo equivalent would be a Treo with no 3rd party apps

    My Computer Science degree tells me you are not really clear on the difference and reasons as to why hard disk space and memory space requirements are two completely different things and that nothing on the Treo equates to a paging file because it doesn't virtual memory.
    They are two completely different things which is why I find the original comparison to windows as beyond logic. But the way windows handles program "cache space" is to use a paging file. You load a database, and want to do a resort on it....windows can't have two copies of the db in memory so the pre sort copy is swapped out to disk while it does the resort in main memory....if the program crashes or encounters an error the pre sorted copy is still "on disk" so it can be saved back to the original file location withhout harm. The Palm OS does not have a paging file so it uses the dbcache section for that function

    And I know from when I used to write OS system code that 110 MB's of disk space has nothing at all to do with just making sure that a program cannot write outside it's own memory space into protected memory. But hey, what do I know?
    But it has everything to do with having a place to store the necessary code. The OS won't run without having a space to store that 110 MB. The Treo also needs a place to store that code. Your assertion that the Treo has 64 MB to "run programs in" is ridiculous. First off, the first 32 MB is the desktop equivalent of the hard disk. Stuff is just "stored" there, nothing runs there. So half your assertion is already blown outta the water.

    The second 32 MB has space set aside for the ROM, space setaside for storing db's while they are maniupulated leaving a whopping 5.3 MB of RAM available for program usage.

    Just keep quoting those treocentral threads and reading PC Magazine.
    Wrong again, didn't quote any other TC threads and I read InfoWorld to keep me up to date in the world of IT. Perhaps if you read more, you wouldn't be calling people thiefs without any basis for your assertions, would be aware that a stock Treo comes with 30 or so apps and wouldn't be talking about a non existant POS Treo with a make belive 64 MB of RAM.
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by Tonylmiller
    Just a thought:

    The OS capabilities have nothing to do with what software comes loaded on the device. The fact that 3rd party apps can play movies proves that the OS can do it.
    I was using TCPMP to play movies for about 10 months before I relaized that the camera app provides this same function and, apparently, just as ably, at least with the 5 or 6 short movies I have on my SD card.
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by blee4
    No to mention the countless custom rom thread to seek as much memory as possible by removing usless palm applications.
    Can you do that in WM5 ? Isn't that flexibility a good thing ?

    How about the countless number of hacks out theere volume care? buttler? that app that allows you to switch off the keyboard back light to save power? It's clear that palm has given developers access to these functions why the hell didn't they build it into the os themselves??? I mean come on power saving by turning off keyboard lights that aren't need is a common sense feature on a portable device is it not????
    Trying to have two apps try and acess the same resources at the same time is an invitation to trouble. VolumeCare does a good job of correcting the low headset volume on the Sprint 650. Verizons and Cingular's are 12db louder making VC irrelevant for that purpose for most people. Is this Palm's fault ? If so, why aren't the other carriers phones similarly afflicted ? Cingular's speakerphone OTOH is a bit low compared to the others. Is this Palm's fault or Cingular's ?

    Palm gives developers access to everything. It places no limits on what you can go in and tamper with but the dude going in is responsible for the changes. Is it your position that restricting acces to these functions is a better idea ? Why is it that some of these programs , like VC can go in and make these changes w/o harm yet other vendor's products do ? The differencde woud appear to be on how well the program is written.

    As for the KB, light thing, this may have been an issue with the 600 but who says it's an issue with the 650 ? Has anyone documented a significant battery life reduction by leaving the KB on ? My Treo can go over a week w/o a charge unless I sit and play EDGE for 6 hours... where's the need for this hack ? I notice that if I leave EDGE on and let the kb and screen go dark, my Treo is soon dead as the proverbial doornail. Palm engineers have apparently decided that turning off the screen has a significant energy saving result and it would appear that they have also decided that leaving the kb on when the OS decides it needs to be lit doesn't. I have seen no info to indicate otherwise.

    Now if I added a push e-mail solution that had my Treo connecting and checking e-mail every 5 minutes dropping battery life to less than a day, wouldn't switching to maybe 15 or 30 minutes between checks provide more energey saving benefit than trying to turn a KB light off ?
  20. #40  
    The Palm Corporation:

    "Merging the interests of corporate profitability and technology -- selling you the worst possible phone and software as you'd be willing to buy."

    Case in point: It still has 32MB of RAM. Rumor has it that Jesus had 64MB in his PDA...
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