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  1.    #1  
    ...from CNET online, an accurate assessment of what the Foleo brought to the table (or more accurately, didn't). Although an easy judgment to make 7 months after the fact, the comments in this article are a well-thought-out description of where Hawkins went wrong where others got it so right.
  2. #2  
    I saw that article. I agree on certain points. Yes the Foleo is not the first small laptop internet device etc etc...

    BUT i still believe Jeff Hawkins was the first person to think of the mobile computing concept regarding the Foleo (which i will not go into further detail anymore), that he was the one who brought it all to the forefront and introduced it to the Tech Public on that infamous day at the D5 conference last May.

    All the earlier devices were legit, small (some were also affordable), but to think of these devices as your secondary mobile computing device (your smartphone being the primary), while leaving your main laptop or PC behind, all came from JH.

    All these talk about the Macbook Air being a really light "secondary" laptop, the Asus being your main laptop when you go outside... these are all echoes of the concept of mobile computing that Jeff Hawkins was preaching about.

    I think the most important feature of mobile computing that JH talked about, and has not been present in these devices, and probably has been very underestimated by everyone is the INSTANT ON EXPERIENCE. None of us will really fully appreciate or understand that this feature is essential to mobile computing until we actually get to experience it in a device. I know you may have 5-10sec bootup times, but to feel the difference between that and instant on, you have to be able to actually use it.
  3. #3  
    But usability matters more IMO. What the Foleo did wrong was limit itself. Instant-on is cool. But then I have to go get my smartphone to use it fully, according to what the features said, even from Palm's site. WHY did they have to limit the first one so much??

    I won't be getting the overpriced underfeatured Air either, for the record. And even that's not as limited as the first Foleo was, it's just too much for what you do get IMO.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  4.    #4  
    Quote Originally Posted by bulls96 View Post
    I think the most important feature of mobile computing that JH talked about, and has not been present in these devices, and probably has been very underestimated by everyone is the INSTANT ON EXPERIENCE. None of us will really fully appreciate or understand that this feature is essential to mobile computing until we actually get to experience it in a device.
    HP Jornada. It's already been done. It also had limited functionality. Consequently, it also had a limited user base. Search for Electrovaya on Google. Instant on, full PC capability for up to 2 days without a recharge. It's alread been done. Diva's right - functionality is way more important than "instant on" and limited functionality (you already have that with your Treo). Being overpriced for its limited functionality signaled the Foleo's death knell.
  5. #5  
    i did not say it has not been done before. I was saying it is one of the most important parts of a mobile computing device in Foleo's category.

    I also had this thought...

    The first Palm Pilots made us realize that we can leave our PC's at home...

    The Foleo made us realize we can leave our laptops at home... which probably until the big Apple's MBA really did not get into the consciousness of the general tech public.

    Its Palm's perennial theme of "making your mobile computer your primary PC", and that concept is really Palm's (and Jeff Hawkins') own.
  6. #6  
    Quote Originally Posted by bulls96 View Post
    i did not say it has not been done before. I was saying it is one of the most important parts of a mobile computing device in Foleo's category.

    I also had this thought...

    The first Palm Pilots made us realize that we can leave our PC's at home...

    The Foleo made us realize we can leave our laptops at home... which probably until the big Apple's MBA really did not get into the consciousness of the general tech public.

    Its Palm's perennial theme of "making your mobile computer your primary PC", and that concept is really Palm's (and Jeff Hawkins') own.
    That does not make sense. The Palm Pilot was a (paper) notebook and Filofax replacement, and the MB Air is a very expensive, crippled laptop.

    What killed the Foleo was perceived utility for the money it cost. At $200 it could have sold very well. The EEePC is a very underspecified laptop, but for the price its very very good, hence its success.

    Surur
  7. #7  
    Here's another article from CNET further proving my point that the Foleo was really the start of a whole new category of devices, pointing to the Foleo as the genesis of the Asus eee's of the tech world. This article was released the same day the article the OP posted above came out.

    http://www.news.com/8301-10784_3-9875451-7.html

    Again, Jeff Hawkins should be given the chance to redeem himself and let Palm rebuilt this machine. He had the vision, and he should be given the opportunity to put to fruitition that vision he gave,

    WHen the FOleo came out, everyone was panning it.... "WHy carry another device?" "Why should i get the FOleo if i already have a laptop".... but now everyone is realizing there is a space for that "Third" device between the smartphone and the laptop... hence the success of these eeePC's.

    Yes it was underpowered... but utility wise... lets see... web browsing... picture viewing.... office documents editing.... music... VPN/LogMeIn... Email syncing... video out for presentations... thats not bad for UTILITY i must debate. I wont argue thought that it was overpriced. But i'd still buy it.

    As to the PC concept i stated, once the Palm Pilots were able to do DocstoGO, people started being able to do office work on their Palm Pilots, and that made us see that we can do stuff on these things stuff we do on our PC's. And that took off. We eventually did videos on our Palms, listen to music, etc etc. And a whole new category of devices was born. Same can be said of the Foleo as i stated above. It was a new category which until after it was cancelled and the eePC's and the MBA's came out was not appreciated by the public.

    "The further out you are, the more people have trouble understanding. It's hard to go back in time, but when we did the Pilot, there were a lot of people that thought that was a stupid idea. I mean a lot, - JEFF HAWKINS
  8. #8  
    To answer Surur:

    A previous article again sheds some light into what i have been saying. This was an interview Jeff Hawkins had with CNET when he released the FOleo

    http://www.news.com/The-best-idea-Je...tml?tag=st.num

    To Quote:

    In a sense, mobile devices are all competing for space in the overnight bag that executives take with them. My guess is that something this large has to kick something out?
    Not true. Let me give you an analogy to the Pilot. We created this organizer. That's what it was. Now, we didn't want to create organizers. We wanted to create handheld computers. We wanted to create personal computers, actually.

    So what is Foleo?
    This is a mobile companion. It's for e-mail. That's what we're selling it as.

    But what is it really?
    Look, there's a lot of people that would love to have something like this as their main personal computer. There's no doubt about it

    It's simple. It's small. It's fast. It's solid state. It's easy to use. Instant on and off. It's easy. I am always trying to create a better personal computer. You have to have a two-stage strategy to get to go where you want to go. You have to find that initial customer.

    Did the Pilot ever become a full personal computer? No. Did it replace the PC? No, that was never the objective. But it became a lot more than an organizer. And the Foleo is going to be a lot more than an e-mail smart-phone companion.




    Read that article. It really felt like a VISIONARY speaking. Its all coming true slowly with the devices that have been coming out.
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    #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by bulls96 View Post
    Here's another article from CNET further proving my point that the Foleo was really the start of a whole new category of devices....
    How can one person's opinion "prove your point"? Foleo failed, end of story.

    I would contend that Foleo was aimed at a different market from the Asus anyway - it was to supplement a smartphone, the Asus is a laptop replacement. If it comes, Foleo2 needs either to be a LOT cheaper, or to be as capable a laptop as the Asus. But these are just my opinions, and don't prove anything.
    PalmPilot Professional...Palm Vx...Treo 600...Treo 680...HTC Touch HD...iPhone 4S...
  10.    #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by bulls96 View Post
    Here's another article from CNET further proving my point that the Foleo was really the start of a whole new category of devices, pointing to the Foleo as the genesis of the Asus eee's of the tech world. This article was released the same day the article the OP posted above came out.
    That completely made up theory might be true if it wasn't flat out debunked by the man who built the Eee PC. Jonny Shih, CEO of ASUS, has repeatedly stated his motivation for the Eee PC was the OLPC (Link). He knew nothing about the Foleo since it was still under wraps when ASUS developed the Eee PC. One key difference: ASUS conceived, designed, built, and marketed the Eee PC in ~10 months. How long did it take Jeff Hawkins to put together his under-powered/over-priced keyboard and screen (hint: Conceived it in 2003, began design in 2005)?
  11. #11  
    It sounds to me Jeff Hawkins does not know why his gadgets are successful, hence his difficulty in replicating that success.

    The Palm PDA's were successful due to the time. It was the go-go 90's, and everyone was rolling in internet riches, and the Palm PDA caught that zeitgeist. Things have never been as good since then.

    The EEePC is doing well not only due to the cost, but because is x86 compatible, meaning people are imagining they can do anything they want with it, making it extremely valuable for its price. The ARM-based Foleo would never be as good, hence its value is ever lower than the cheap EEePC. Its in effect not a new computer platform, but an expensive foldable keyboard and screen. How many people still buy those things? In fact, despite the non-appearance of the Foleo, foldable keyboards are being discontinued. The rise of the cheap laptop has made it nonsensical to carry a "just about works" solution.

    Hawkins may have had a vision, but so does every inventor. That does not translate into a sustainable product that the consumer wants.

    Or, lets put it this way - Palm sold about 3 million Treo's in the last 12 months, and the Foleo was tied to the Treo, and one cant seriously expect more than 10% of those people to also buy a Foleo. Asus is planning to sell 4 million mini-laptops in 2008. The devices are clearly not aiming at the same market.

    Surur
  12. #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by bulls96 View Post
    To answer Surur:

    A previous article again sheds some light into what i have been saying. This was an interview Jeff Hawkins had with CNET when he released the FOleo

    http://www.news.com/The-best-idea-Je...tml?tag=st.num

    To Quote:

    In a sense, mobile devices are all competing for space in the overnight bag that executives take with them. My guess is that something this large has to kick something out?
    Not true. Let me give you an analogy to the Pilot. We created this organizer. That's what it was. Now, we didn't want to create organizers. We wanted to create handheld computers. We wanted to create personal computers, actually. There's nothing new about this.

    So what is Foleo?
    This is a mobile companion. It's for e-mail. That's what we're selling it as. So what's the smartphone for, why carry redundant devices?

    But what is it really?
    Look, there's a lot of people that would love to have something like this as their main personal computer. There's no doubt about it It totally fails as a computer though.

    It's simple. It's small. It's fast. It's solid state. It's easy to use. Instant on and off. It's easy. I am always trying to create a better personal computer. You have to have a two-stage strategy to get to go where you want to go. You have to find that initial customer.

    Did the Pilot ever become a full personal computer? No. Did it replace the PC? No, that was never the objective. But it became a lot more than an organizer. And the Foleo is going to be a lot more than an e-mail smart-phone companion. So where was the proof of this? All I saw was Treo companion statements.




    Read that article. It really felt like a VISIONARY speaking. Its all coming true slowly with the devices that have been coming out.
    My thoughts above in red. The "visionary" put out a non-visionary device, plain and simple.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  13. ~Q~
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    #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    It sounds to me Jeff Hawkins does not know why his gadgets are successful, hence his difficulty in replicating that success.
    Excellent point Surur! Most ground breaking technology starts out like this. Some basically trips across the next best thing since sliced bread. Like Bill Gates, Jeff Hawkins got lucky ran with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    The EEePC is doing well not only due to the cost, but because is x86 compatible, meaning people are imagining they can do anything they want with it, making it extremely valuable for its price.
    Exactly! Most every main stream OS out there is now running on someone's Eee, even OS X. People are just living this little guy. Despite the fact that that onboard storage is very limited, the Eee is hugely popular.

    Solid state mobile computing is the wave of the future. No moving parts just makes sense for the mobile computer.

    Note: I disconnected the fan on my Eee and it is not TOTALLY silent. Given that the stock CPU is underclocked, this isn't a problem. It is really neat working with a PC that doesn't make a single sound.

    Q
    Criterion 300>CMT>Huskey Hunter>Handspring Visor>Juniper Allegro>Palm Tungsten>TDS Recon>Treo 650>Treo 700P>Treo 755P>Blackberry Pearl

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  14. #14  
    I think the Asus and OLPC was made based on a business-oriented model... making low cost laptop that the public can buy.

    The Foleo, on the other hand was made on a "Vision"-oriented model... to make a mobile computing device that will supplement your smartphone and make the mobile computing experience complete.

    I may agree that the Foleo did not inspire Asus/OLPC but the rise of the niche that the Asus/OLPC has successfully occupied in the mobile computing world (which i think is a big reason why it is successful) is a fulfillment of JH's vision.
  15.    #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by bulls96 View Post
    I think the Asus and OLPC was made based on a business-oriented model... making low cost laptop that the public can buy.
    Actually, the OLPC is a purely vision-oriented model. There's little, if any, "business" associated with it's ideals. In fact, the "public" can't even buy an OLPC.

    Quote Originally Posted by bulls96 View Post
    The Foleo, on the other hand was made on a "Vision"-oriented model... to make a mobile computing device that will supplement your smartphone and make the mobile computing experience complete.
    Agreed - in the same way a Navao shaman eats some peyote and has a vision trek, the Foleo was a vision that had very little thought grounded in market reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by bulls96 View Post
    I may agree that the Foleo did not inspire Asus/OLPC but the rise of the niche that the Asus/OLPC has successfully occupied in the mobile computing world (which i think is a big reason why it is successful) is a fulfillment of JH's vision.
    I think you really don't get it if you're equating the Eee PC and the OLPC. The OLPC was designed to fulfill a very narrowly defined education function to a large population (3rd world children). The Eee PC was designed as the cheapest, most portable computer to appeal to the widest possible audience (from beginner to expert computer user). Both of those computers address their unique, et potentially huge, target audiences well.

    The only part of JH's vision the Eee PC and OLPC fulfilled was his horribly misudged hope for high production volume - something that could never happen with his otherwise narrowly (or more accurately ill)-defined "companion" device. Hawkins' intended market was tiny by comparison, although I'm pretty sure he actually wasn't aware of this until witnessing the cold reception his "vision" received once it was unveiled to his potential customer-base.
  16. #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by bulls96 View Post
    Here's another article from CNET further proving my point that the Foleo was really the start of a whole new category of devices, pointing to the Foleo as the genesis of the Asus eee's of the tech world. This article was released the same day the article the OP posted above came out.

    http://www.news.com/8301-10784_3-9875451-7.html

    Again, Jeff Hawkins should be given the chance to redeem himself and let Palm rebuilt this machine. He had the vision, and he should be given the opportunity to put to fruitition that vision he gave,

    WHen the FOleo came out, everyone was panning it.... "WHy carry another device?" "Why should i get the FOleo if i already have a laptop".... but now everyone is realizing there is a space for that "Third" device between the smartphone and the laptop... hence the success of these eeePC's.

    Yes it was underpowered... but utility wise... lets see... web browsing... picture viewing.... office documents editing.... music... VPN/LogMeIn... Email syncing... video out for presentations... thats not bad for UTILITY i must debate. I wont argue thought that it was overpriced. But i'd still buy it.

    As to the PC concept i stated, once the Palm Pilots were able to do DocstoGO, people started being able to do office work on their Palm Pilots, and that made us see that we can do stuff on these things stuff we do on our PC's. And that took off. We eventually did videos on our Palms, listen to music, etc etc. And a whole new category of devices was born. Same can be said of the Foleo as i stated above. It was a new category which until after it was cancelled and the eePC's and the MBA's came out was not appreciated by the public.

    "The further out you are, the more people have trouble understanding. It's hard to go back in time, but when we did the Pilot, there were a lot of people that thought that was a stupid idea. I mean a lot, - JEFF HAWKINS
    BUT PALM MADE A HUGE HUGE MISTAKE WHEN THEY TOOK AWAY PRECIOUS RESOURCES FROM THE TREO LINUX PROJECT TO develop Jeff's idea that hit with a resounding dull bounce. Palm should have realized that the phone division comes first and they should have released our Linux Phone last June or July when the I-phone was released (they would have had less people to jump ship). Also I do not believe that Android had been announced yet and they would have been out the gate first with the 1st linux smartphone. It's true they have a hit with the Centro which still could be polished some (flat screen like the Q)! These are the people that gave us the Palm V. I believe our boards had a lot more activity last fall than they do now. I guess Dieter could make a post as to the amount of comments that have been posted in 2007 versus 2008 (in the same time frame). I am still waiting for the Treo 800W.
    Last edited by Gas Man; 02/28/2008 at 09:39 PM. Reason: improve statement
  17. jimn367's Avatar
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    #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur
    ...What killed the Foleo was perceived utility for the money it cost. At $200 it could have sold very well. The EEePC is a very underspecified laptop, but for the price its very very good, hence its success.

    Surur
    Absolutely, that and:
    1) It couldn't act as a stand-alone PDA
    2) It didn't support bberries on day 1

    If the foleo would have just had the legacy Tx capability it would have been a hit. I'm still hoping [Not a software guy here] that someone will port ALP to a Nokia 810 or EEEPC.
  18. jimn367's Avatar
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    #18  
    Heck if they would just develop a version of Pocket Informant for the EEEPC that could synch with my desktop I'd be sold.
  19. #19  
    > "The Foleo, on the other hand was made on a "Vision"-oriented model... to make a mobile computing device that will supplement your smartphone and make the mobile computing experience complete."

    The Foleo is a perfect example of Palm management's complete cluelessness. They don't even know what users want now, so how can they predict what users will want in 2 or 3 years? In 2 or 3 years Palm will be gone.

    > "BUT PALM MADE A HUGE HUGE MISTAKE WHEN THEY TOOK AWAY PRECIOUS RESOURCES FROM THE TREO LINUX PROJECT TO develop Jeff's idea that hit with a resounding dull bounce. "

    Exactly. Now Palm has missed any window of opportunity they might have had. It will have been just about 18 months from iPhone initial sales to iPhone 2.0 firmware upgrade with enterprise support and native applications via the iPhone SDK. That's one and a half years of planning, design, and development that Palm will never get back. And what did they spend that year on? Foleo and Centro. The niche product of all niche products and a mildly restyled Treo 680.

    Now, it almost doesn't matter what Palm does. A handheld that's far better than the iPhone in both hardware and software might give Palm another year of publicity on their way out. But only among the technology-watchers of the world. Would such a handset bring in new users to expand Palm's market share? Or would it just sell into same old Palm fanatic slice of the pie?

    Burroughs, Honeywell, CDC, and NCR survived for years after their prime. They fell down the staircase into maintenance mode: they ceased developing new products and simply serviced and maintained machines operated by their customers who were counting the days until they had amortized their massive investment in all that outdated equipment. Eventually those customers upgraded to HP or Sun or SGI, for example. Palm should be so lucky.

    I'm bitter, yes, but it's because I've been a Handspring / Palm user since 1999. Not as long as many of you, but maybe that's why I'm not in denial about how dire Palm's situation now is. I loved my Visor (green), barely tolerated my Treo 180 and Treo 600, and now I'm regretting purchasing my Treo 680 (Arctic white) just 1 month before I saw the iPhone at MacWorld in January 2007.

    Why am I bitter? Because PalmOS still doesn't even have pre-emptive multitasking. UNIX has had that since the '70s. Because PalmOS looks pretty much the same as it did in 1999. A few more pixels, a few thousand more colors, but that's it. My Treo 680 still has the same creaky plasticky feel that my Visor did. I still have my Visor and I have compared them directly.

    So I feel as though I've been milked like a cow. I've supported Palm for 9.5 years and what have they done for themselves and for us users? They've treated us to trailing edge technology and told us that we'll like it. And they've proven again and again that their management is completely incapable of innovation.

    If Palm had started work on their flavor of LInux about five years ago, and if that flavor of Linux had been really good, Apple wouldn't have even bothered developing the iPhone. Apple has already thrown Motorola under the bus. You get one guess who's going to be next.

    My 680's days are numbered.
  20. #20  
    Quite frankly, it sounds like from the interview that Hawkins knew it as much as Palm knew it that the Foleo wasn't ready. He says "And the Foleo is going to be a lot more than an e-mail smart-phone companion." He doesn't say it is more than an email smartphone companion, he says it is going to be.

    They didn't expect the eeePC to come out so soon and had to go with what they had, which at the time, only amounted to email.

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