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  1.    #1  
    I was going thru my usual Foleo musings...

    I began to wonder, if Palm were to make a Foleo 2 (which they should!), how would you like them to design it..... an overpowered PDA or an Underpowered Laptop?

    The Asus Eee has been quite a success, and is basically an underpowered laptop, a dumbed down one. But this basically takes a hit on its greatest flaw... battery life.

    Then i thought of Foleo, and looked at it as an oversized PDA... and it does have its advantage of having very good battery life. I began to think it wouldnt be that bad to have a "PDA-experience" on a larger screen and full keyboard. Thats what PDA's are good at, thats why people are still loving their PDA experiences.
    And i remembered Foleo marketed as "Simplified Computing" and how, for its low specs, Palm has chosen to select what it wants it to do in terms of mobile computing.. and do it well.

    SO which would you choose? an underpowered laptop with its processing power, a dozen more things it can do, bad battery life, possible "bloatware syndrome"

    Or an oversized PDA, which does a lot less, but snappy, responsive, "instant on", with a better battery life?
    Last edited by bulls96; 12/16/2007 at 01:09 AM. Reason: modify
  2. #2  
    But Foleo's redundant when you already have a PDA phone IMO. Unless you really want to spend the extra money.

    At least the Asus actually functions as laptop, even if limited. I'd take the underpowered laptop if I HAD to choose. Although honestly neither in my case. Phone and a REAL laptop(since you can get them for $400-$600 now), now we're talking!
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  3.    #3  
    Quote Originally Posted by The Phone Diva View Post
    But Foleo's redundant when you already have a PDA phone IMO. Unless you really want to spend the extra money.

    At least the Asus actually functions as laptop, even if limited. I'd take the underpowered laptop if I HAD to choose. Although honestly neither in my case. Phone and a REAL laptop(since you can get them for $400-$600 now), now we're talking!
    Yeah i understand what you mean... but there's 2 things about a REAL laptop that reallly doesnt fit very well into that mobile computing paradigm.. COST and SIZE. You make a REAL laptop small, you increase the price.

    Its the COST and WEIGHT which has led me to this conclusion that we either really have to choose between an underpowered laptop or an overpowered PDA.

    I really think you need 2 things when you go out of your house for your computing needs, a smartphone, and something thats less of a laptop...
  4. #4  
    PDA's are old hat. Why would a bigger one sell well. Laptops are in, and selling very well. Its clear which market the Foleo 2 should address.

    Surur
  5. #5  
    How about just the powerful smartphone if you want mobile computing? Get one with a wide screen, 3G and/or wifi, a full keyboard, and option to enlarge fonts if you have bad eyesight.

    Unless you REALLY need an underpowered laptop, then get that to go along. I just looked at the specs again and honestly, I can't stomach the Asus either. It's better than the Foleo but still very limited.
    Last edited by The Phone Diva; 12/17/2007 at 07:34 AM.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  6. #6  
    Quote Originally Posted by bulls96 View Post
    The Asus Eee has been quite a success, and is basically an underpowered laptop, a dumbed down one. But this basically takes a hit on its greatest flaw... battery life.
    I would not call the Eee a "dumbed down laptop". My wife has been using a XP/Eee for over a week now, replacing her dual-core HP DV6000 laptop running Vista.

    She has an nLite(ened) XP Pro, Office 2007, IE7, WM11 system; with all her documents; all on that little 4gig hard drive (with 987m still available). Spent another $50 at New Egg to get her a 8gig SDHC card for her music and photos. Yes the screen is small, but it is exactly what she wants, small and portable. She uses it for office productivity stuff.

    I have a Ubuntu/Eee that I couldn't be more pleased with. I spent an extra $30 at New Egg to get a 2g RAM card. The Eee runs the higher UI interface elements just fine, blows the doors off Vista's Aero interface. I use my Eee for general office productivity stuff as well, and VPN into work computers for remote development and maintenance. I have also burned/ripped DVD/CDs (legally of course), edited images, created a MP3 song track, watched video; all on the tiny underpowered Eee.

    Check out the following videos: (only the "Cube" requires add-on functionality)



    Yes it took more effort to complete a usable XP/Ubuntu install than you can expect the average joe to accomplish; but the potential of the Eee is amazing.
  7. #7  
    Anything too big for my pockets won't be with me most of the time. Something light and ultraportable would be welcome though as a notebook replacement for core functions like surfing, email, skypeing, watching videos : things which won't be a fantastic experience on a tiny pda or pda phone. However this would be useful only if I travel. For daily work and home use, I prefer a full size keyboard and really big screen.
    So yes, I think an ultraportable - whether you call it a scaled up PDA or a scaled down notebook - has its uses but its not really that essential unless you are on the move alot and want something lighter and smaller than your notebook.

    As for the Asus Eee, there are a couple of things which make me hesitate: it's not instant on like the Foleo and the thing runs pretty warm. I won't rush to get one and prefer see what's in store next year. Hopefully Palm will release Foleo II
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  8.    #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by dgoodisi View Post
    I would not call the Eee a "dumbed down laptop". My wife has been using a XP/Eee for over a week now, replacing her dual-core HP DV6000 laptop running Vista.

    She has an nLite(ened) XP Pro, Office 2007, IE7, WM11 system; with all her documents; all on that little 4gig hard drive (with 987m still available). Spent another $50 at New Egg to get her a 8gig SDHC card for her music and photos. Yes the screen is small, but it is exactly what she wants, small and portable. She uses it for office productivity stuff.

    I have a Ubuntu/Eee that I couldn't be more pleased with. I spent an extra $30 at New Egg to get a 2g RAM card. The Eee runs the higher UI interface elements just fine, blows the doors off Vista's Aero interface. I use my Eee for general office productivity stuff as well, and VPN into work computers for remote development and maintenance. I have also burned/ripped DVD/CDs (legally of course), edited images, created a MP3 song track, watched video; all on the tiny underpowered Eee.

    Check out the following videos: (only the "Cube" requires add-on functionality)



    Yes it took more effort to complete a usable XP/Ubuntu install than you can expect the average joe to accomplish; but the potential of the Eee is amazing.
    i acknowledge that the Asus is able to do a lot of things given its specs. But i think even an oversized/overlocked Foleo/PDA will be able to do VPN, play music, do editing on pictures, cut music, surf the web, do word processing, play video, etc also...

    its because the OS is simpler and straightforward... its the same idea behind Palm pilots... nobody before Palms were made thought that surfing the web, playing music,videos, word processing, would be possible on a tinibity 400mHz or even less processor alone... its what made Palms wonderful... its "simplified computing" and being able to perform these tasks without requiring 1ghz of processing power... hence the snappier interface and long battery life

    Again it's the Palm OS's simplicity that makes it powerful... its processing speed to computing capabilities ratio is Palm's innovation in mobile computing...

    that brings us to running XP on an Asus/UMPC... yes it can do all these things... but to do all that, it needed a higher CPU speed... and that makes for a shorter battery life, emission of heat, need for a fan(?)tasks more complicated to perform, not to mention the viruses out there too...

    am i getting my message across right?

    Its what the Foleo brought to the table... a more simplified way of computing without the hassles and headaches of windows... much like what Palm Pilots really did before...
  9. Gerorne's Avatar
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    #9  
    Just droppin by. Got some No Foleo sadness hit me. I've only skimmed some of all the new posts since I was last here, and the ASUS Eee is tempting, and it's good to hear that it's doing well, and other people are loving it... but yeah, I'd still rather have the Foleo. bulls96 has pretty much covered why.
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  10. fishera's Avatar
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    #10  
    I was hoping the Foleo would replace my old iBook G3, which has become a dumbed down laptop to me. Its something small, light, plastic, full keyboard and 12 inch screen, and runs OS X Panther very well.

    The Foleo needs to be marketed as a Linux laptop with extreme amounts of mobile integration, like we have never seen before. Then it would put the final nail in my iBook.

    Thats just how I see it...
    Aaron M. Fisher
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  11. #11  
    I used the Foleo. I liked it.
    I have an EEE PC, I like it more.

    The problem with the EEE PC is that it's almost too small in my opinion. The low res 800x480 (can run at 800x600) screen means that web browsing is a challenge on firefox. Better on Opera or IE that does page scaling.
    I look forward to Firefox 3 which has page size scaling.
    Put a 1024x600 screen on it like they plan to do with an upcoming model and increase the size of the device just a little, and I think it would be perfect.

    Don't get me wrong, I love that it's tiny. But honestly I think it's smaller than it needs to be and could be stand to be a bit bigger to be more useful. The keyboard might be a bit more comfortable to use if it was a scosh larger.

    I hate to say this, but if you can, wait to see what the 7 to 9 inch screen models are going to be like if you can (just announced at CES.) I'm sure it'll be months (like 6 months) before you see them though. While I do love my EEE PC, I'm sure I'll be buying a new model with larger digs.

    I put Windows XP on mine. I can honestly say there isn't much I feel I can't do on this than I can on my Thinkpad T60. It has replaced 90% of my laptop needs.
    Especially when I use an external monitor at home.

    Windows users, quite simply get the 8G model if you want to do that. You'll want the 1G RAM to go with it though RAM upgrades are cheap and 4GB will work for Windows it just means more work.
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  12. #12  
    I would rather use a powerful Laptop and a sleek undersized PDA.
    at&t iPhone3G
  13. #13  
    One thing that you see very little discussion of in these threads is battery life. For my money the two most important defining characteristics of a successful UMPC design are 1a-Size/weight and 1b-battery life. What a product must do to be really successful and usable is allow the user to charge it overnight, and then take it out for the day, all day, with no concerns for the battery. Otherwise, you are forced to carry the charger with you all day. This means that you are no longer just carrying a lightweight device as if it were a notebook or a daytimer, but now you have to buy a case which holds the UMPC plus the charger and carry the case all day. It means that a quick jump from your desk to a meeting does not mean just grabbing the device, but packing the device in a bag and carrying the bag and then unpacking it... This also means that visits to coffee shops, or doctors waiting rooms or any other mobile sites, are spent looking for outlets and unwinding and winding cords. This is not "Ultra-Mobile".

    So what's my point? The reason I thought the Foleo had it right using the oversized-PDA approach as opposed to the underpowered laptop approach was battery life. There is no way a pentium based processor will ever be lower power than an ARM based processor and unless they could approximate PDA like battery life, I thought the ARM was a better choice.

    I realize now that I was wrong (and I am wondering if the Palm folks are realizing the same thing). I wasn't wrong that a pentium based chip would never consume less power than an ARM based chip, but I never realized they could come so close. The new Silverthorne processors from Intel are amazingly low power. Maybe a factor of only 3 or 4 more than ARM chips. (I'd guess 500mW vs 1.5W to 2W). The thing is that when you add in the power consumption of the display and the wireless radios, the processor difference becomes only a small percentage in total power difference. Trade that against the full processing capabilities and application feature set of a pentium and the trade-off is a no brainer. There is no way that Palm could have foreseen Intel's new processor family two years ago when it started the Foleo, but my guess is that if they really rethink things now, a Foleo 2 would have a low-power Intel chip. And in this case, its differentiation from the Eee or an Apple sub-notebook will be in its POS II (aka Nova) user interface. Hardware capabilities and price will have mostly converged. I guess we'll see...
  14.    #14  
    Nicely put guinessdraught... you made my earlier arguement about battery life even more believeable

    What makes me sad is that Foleo 2 will eventually have to play catchup to everyone if and when it comes out once Asus develops mroe advanced eePC's or maybe more so IF Apple makes an announcement of a Macbook Air that i have been reading about... sad that Palm has to play catch up in a game that they pioneered...

    But you were correct that Palm Foleo 2's differentiation will be the Palm OS Nova... lets hope and pray its a big enough difference for Palm to win the battle...

    I actually suggested in another thread here that they go ahead release a Foleo device with Palm Nova first before the Treos next year so the Palm community can build up some momentum
  15. Rusty J's Avatar
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    #15  
    Guiness and Bulls;

    I agree -- battery life is the critical issue here, along with the ability to just flip the thing open and start working. I have a Samsung UMPC that I've relegated to around-the-house use because of the nuisance of dragging around the power supply to augment the 2-hour stock battery...
    A good example of a useful device would be the HTC Shift, with the touch-flow interface jailbroken to enable full WM6 operation (already done) , if it didn't have the Vista hardware and OS. Or, the HTC Athena if it had a full-sized keyboard (or, perhaps, could auto-detect a bluetooth keyboard).
    Closer to it, or at least what I'm using at the moment, is the Nokia N800 internet tablet with a bluetooth keyboard (though the N810 also fits). All of the PDA stuff stays on the phone , by necessity -- the available native PIM apps are rather disapointing, and the heavy web browsing and writing gets done on the tablet. Battery life is 3-7 hours, and it all fits in a couple of pockets. The only thing that's missing is a stable application for handling Microsoft file formats ( *.doc in particular). It occurs to me that DataViz has already ported their excellent Documents to Go* to Linux once, for the Foleo -- it'd be nice if they could figure out a way to profit from doing likewise for the Linux on the Nokia tablets.

    *DtG does a better job of handling *.doc files than Word Mobile. (I'm using OpenOffice on my destkop, and WordMobile can't handle editing those files until they're laundered through DtG )
    Last edited by Rusty J; 01/16/2008 at 03:23 AM.
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  16. TRgEOff's Avatar
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    #16  
    A PDA companion...

    ...specifically a PalmOS version of the Redfly.... at $200
    geoff

    Treo 650 1.20 LAP.
  17.    #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by TRgEOff View Post
    A PDA companion...

    ...specifically a PalmOS version of the Redfly.... at $200
    I hate the concept of Redfly and all the other Foleo wannabes... it needs to be a standalone product and not just be a big screen and keyboard. I have said it and i will say it again.... Palm got the Foleo just right... except for the price... at $299 it wouls have sold A LOT.
  18. #18  
    I think that there is a whole different market that we, and the gadget makers are missing. I've used an iPhone and it's kinda too small to be useful around the house for browsing and too big to use outside the house as a phone.

    The Centro is about as small as you can go with a smart phone but probably an OK size.

    I think there is something that fits between the centro and a laptop, but it wont be a laptop in form. More likely it will be a large iPhone like device.

    How many people lie around their house and read this forum, or the newspaper, or check their email, maybe view a .doc or a .xls file, but are not actually working. Rather interacting and viewing.

    So a tablet like device with a touch screen, and a popup keyboard when needed (like the iPhone) but with a much bigger screen say around 10 inches, with wifi/bluetooth and a decent battery life. I reckon that would be a winner.

    It can't be a dumb eBook reader, it must be a featured product.

    It certainly could do all the things that the Foleo hoped to do, just in a different way.
    Last edited by dbmgreen; 01/18/2008 at 06:07 AM. Reason: more thoughts on subject
  19. #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbmgreen View Post
    I think there is something that fits between the centro and a laptop, but it wont be a laptop in form. More likely it will be a large iPhone like device.

    How many people lie around their house and read this forum, or the newspaper, or check their email, maybe view a .doc or a .xls file, but are not actually working. Rather interacting and viewing.

    So a tablet like device with a touch screen, and a popup keyboard when needed (like the iPhone) but with a much bigger screen say around 10 inches, with wifi/bluetooth and a decent battery life. I reckon that would be a winner.
    You're describing something similar to the old Compaq TC-1000


    In slate mode (keyboard removed) is was small (10" screen), light (~1.8 lbs), "touch" screen (required a pen). I used it as my main work computer for about a year (including "walk around" video conferencing). It was a bit underpowered for its time, but I still use it around the house with my Slingbox.
  20.    #20  
    @Kupe -how much was that device? i bet mroe than $1000.

    THat brings me to another important aspect of this "In-Between phone and laptop" that may be just as important as the features.... PRICE. It will not be a successful category of devices if the device is OVERpriced... thats what keeping the different UMPC's out there (the ux's etc) from taking off with the general public. It has to be something that the mobile computing population can afford

    It should go for at least the price of the ASUS... i'll probably go as high as $800 if they add a couple more features (probably a tablet like hinge and touchscreen? with ability to play videos on the web).

    The SWEET spot for me is a FOleo for $299.... that given the limited functionailty.
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