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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    I think Palm would be mad to waste a lot of resources on a niche product. They need successful mass market products, and this means either very compelling functionality at a reasonable price (compelling to the masses) or limited functionality at a very low price.

    Limited functionality at a high price screams niche.

    Surur
    If it does everything I need, that's full functionality.
    And $599 is cheap for a 2.5 lb, 10" laptop with very long battery life, decent storage, memory, and processor, and a good set of productivity apps, IMO. (We're talking about Foleo II.)

    As I said before, the market for inexpensive, ultra light-weight laptops with long battery-life is not niche.
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    #22  
    Hardware wise, the folio hit the bill. software problems reflects Palm's inexperience with linux. Fix those (like full e-mail, and a browser that works as well as one on a pc) and palm would have a winner.
    Henry L lazarus hlazar@netaxs.com
    www.netaxs.com/~hlazar/
    www.netaxs.com/~hlazar/god.html
  3. #23  
    If the Foleo worked perfectly, how many do you think they would sell in 3 months? 5 000? 20 000? 50 000? Palm sells 750 000 Treo's per quarter. They should use the millions invested in the Foleo to learn how to make thinner devices, better-looking devices that work well and double their Treo volume, not waste time on a niche product.

    Remember, the Foleo was called the Fooleo even before people heard about the synchronization bugs. Most consumers just can not see the utility of an underpowered incompatible mini-laptop, especially at a greater cost than a full-sized laptop.

    Surur
  4. #24  
    Being from Australia, I actually thought that the original Foleo price was very reasonable. It is not uncommon for high-end PDAs here to be in the $900 - $1300 price range. I actually expected the Foleo to fall in there somewhere....that equates to something like $700 - $1100 USD. As a result of that, I really did not understand the arguement that it cost too much....but then I am from Australia after-all.

    I was very impressed with the Foleo concept and badly wanted one. If I was to change any of it's features though, I would have added more RAM. Granted that you can use storage cards but they should be used for files while the RAM should be able to store the applications. I would like to see more RAM so as to allow for many future applications that I would like to see built.

    I would also like to see a touch screen that swivels and allows the Foleo to turn into a tablet device.

    I also think that it was lacking a microphone (although maybe bluetooth ones could be used).

    That's really it in terms of hardware.

    In terms of software, I would like to see the email application as an independant application that can also work in partnership with the Treo.

    I would also like to see it work with all Treos as of the 650, but can see that this may only be on a limited basis and it would be the new Treos with the new OS that would provide better partnership or more partnership options with the Foleo.

    It would also be good to be able to see a desktop and to see tabs of the recently run applications. I would like to see tabs for example that showed that I had multiple Word documents open at once. I would like to be able to switch between Word documents and Excel documents without having to save the document and close it to open the next one. A tab feature should allow me to switch between them and save when I wish.

    In much the same way, I would like to see tabs in a web browser.

    Given these features, the Foleo would replace my laptop.

    Jodi
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    If the Foleo worked perfectly, how many do you think they would sell in 3 months? 5 000? 20 000? 50 000? Palm sells 750 000 Treo's per quarter. They should use the millions invested in the Foleo to learn how to make thinner devices, better-looking devices that work well and double their Treo volume, not waste time on a niche product.

    Remember, the Foleo was called the Fooleo even before people heard about the synchronization bugs. Most consumers just can not see the utility of an underpowered incompatible mini-laptop, especially at a greater cost than a full-sized laptop.

    Surur
    They shouldn't waste time on a niche product. They should develop an ultra lightweight laptop that will sell millions.

    As for the price, laptops with comparable screen, keyboard, weight, and battery life are $2000. There's a reason lighter laptops cost more than heavy, "full-sized" laptops.
  6. #26  
    People are not completely stupid. A select few will pay a lot for utility, but the majority know the bill of material is only around $200, and wont pay a special premium for a limited utility device. The original Palm Foleo vision is not a million-selling device.

    I will just finally add that the OLPC has similar hardware and software and that only costs $175 to make.

    We are going in circles, so I am going to stop (for now).

    Surur
  7.    #27  
    this might be what you are looking for:


    HTC's Shift: runs Windows Mobile right, after all, it's an HTC device? Nope, Vista Business Edition. That Windows Mobile looking UI we've seen is HTC's "SnapVUE" shell, an advanced BIOS with support for some of the same applications you would see on a Windows Mobile device. So while you won't get voice capability or Windows Mobile Office, the Sideshow-like display will provide up to 53-hours of use with push email enabled (11 days, without). At least that's what Kaz911 is saying after getting their hands on the claimed, official HTC specs and interviewing Kevin Chen, General Manager HTC EMEA. If the spec list is to be believed, we're looking at an 800MHz Intel A110 Stealey-class CPU; 1GB memory; up to 60GB of disk; 7-inch, 800 x 480 touch-sensitive LCD for all the Aero and 3D flip action you can handle; 802.11b/g WiFi; Bluetooth 2.0; and of course a 400MHz Qualcomm MSM 7200 chipset with tri-band UMTS / HSDPA and quad-band GSM / GPRS / EDGE radios. The odd (and hopefully inaccurate) spec is the 2700mAh battery rated for "up to 2-hours" of that Vista wow. Sounds a bit fishy to us for a McCaslin-based UMPC which targets 4-5 hours of battery life. We'll see once these official specs are actually released by HTC.

    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    People are not completely stupid. A select few will pay a lot for utility, but the majority know the bill of material is only around $200, and wont pay a special premium for a limited utility device. The original Palm Foleo vision is not a million-selling device.

    I will just finally add that the OLPC has similar hardware and software and that only costs $175 to make.

    We are going in circles, so I am going to stop (for now).

    Surur
    First, this entire thread has been about the Foleo II.
    Second, your position is based on the premise that it's expensive. But you have to compare it to 5 lb laptops with 2.5 hr battery life or 7" laptops to conclude that.
    Third, if it does everything a user needs, it's not limited utility. Actually, you have to question why people would continue to pay a premium for functionality they don't need or use (storage, processor, graphics, Windows bloat) if a cheaper, better alternative becomes available. People aren't completely stupid.
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    People are not completely stupid. A select few will pay a lot for utility, but the majority know the bill of material is only around $200, and wont pay a special premium for a limited utility device. The original Palm Foleo vision is not a million-selling device.

    I will just finally add that the OLPC has similar hardware and software and that only costs $175 to make.
    As did samkim, I would tend to disagree. This device (Foleo) sought to perform many of the tasks that a large number of users do on a routine basis, do them well, and in an instant-on lightweight package at a reasonable price.

    People will buy devices that do what they need. If the Foleo/FoleoII doesn't do what you need, then it's not aimed at you. UMPC & OLPC are not aimed at me.
    _______________________________________
    David Swinehart
    Palm Treo 700wx, Dell Latitude X1, Wish I had a Foleo
  10. #30  
    I'll try one more time.

    1) The Foleo is perfect for some people, who can see its value, and are willing to pay a lot for it. I am not denying this.

    2) This group of people is pretty small. Palm thought it was big, but the outcry by the community and analysts made it clear to them they were mistaken.

    If you disagree with the above then we share no common area to start even discussing from.

    3) A way of expanding a target market is to add desirable features, OR to lower the price - either will do.

    4) The features which Palm was selling the Foleo on (slightly smaller than a cheap laptop, slightly simpler, bit longer battery life) were not compelling to a mass market, especially because the device was so limited. The Foleo I was not good enough to be a laptop replacement. It was not cheap enough to be an additional device.

    5) The only way to address these aspects is to either
    a) bring down the price to match the value to consumers (not you personally, but a random person in the street).
    b) increase the features, thereby increasing the value, also to the random person in the street.

    Now both of you feel the Foleo + a bit more would be perfect for you AND a mass market. I really dont see why. Children wont be able to run their games on it, it wont do W O Warcraft, mummies wont run itunes on it, or quicken. Daddies wont be able to watch flash video on CNN on it, and may find his attachments are not viewable etc.

    The Foleo could make a good WIFI web tablet, especially if it was very cheap, and could live on the coffee table. It could make a very good HSDPA web tablet, without being very cheap.

    It will never be a good laptop replacement for the vast majority of people however, even if slightly improved, as you have suggested.

    Surur
  11. #31  
    1. $599 is cheap for an ultra-light 10" laptop with 5 hrs battery life. I'm not willing to pay a lot for one, and $599 is not a lot. $2500 is a lot.

    2. The original Foleo was an underpowered device that wasn't a good smartphone companion, and wasn't a laptop replacement. You're trying to argue that the reaction to the poor device means that no one wants an ultra-light laptop with long battery life. I believe the potential market is very large. We disagree on this.

    bit longer battery life
    Twice as long is not just a "bit longer."

    Children wont be able to run their games on it, it wont do W O Warcraft, mummies wont run itunes on it, or quicken. Daddies wont be able to watch flash video on CNN on it, and may find his attachments are not viewable etc.
    A lot of mass-market devices don't run children's games, iTunes, or Quicken. In fact, most devices purchased for business will never be used for those things. Re Daddy's Flash video and attachments, I think the Foleo II will do just fine.


    It will never be a good laptop replacement for the vast majority of people however, even if slightly improved, as you have suggested.
    "The vast majority of people" will never buy a Mac, or a Blackberry, or a RAZR, or a Volvo. You don't need to sell hundreds of millions of devices to succeed. You just need a vast minority of millions.
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by samkim View Post
    A lot of mass-market devices don't run children's games, iTunes, or Quicken. In fact, most devices purchased for business will never be used for those things. Re Daddy's Flash video and attachments, I think the Foleo II will do just fine.

    "The vast majority of people" will never buy a Mac, or a Blackberry, or a RAZR, or a Volvo. You don't need to sell hundreds of millions of devices to succeed. You just need a vast minority of millions.
    One could take this a step further to say that the Foleo/FoleoII is aimed at the current smartphone market. In the US last year, smartphone makers sold over 8 million devices, with the worldwide market being even more attuned to smartphones:

    http://www.technewsworld.com/story/55446.html

    In this report, Gartner Group predicts that the US smartphone market will surge to 54 million devices by the year 2010. That's exponential market expansion, and quite frankly, a good reason for Palm to focus on developing its core operating system!

    Let's assume for a moment that 5% of the smartphone market is hip to the idea of something like the Foleo (and that Palm is successful in making the Foleo work with non-Palm models). That would represent 400,000 units now and potentially 2.7 million units within the next two years.
    _______________________________________
    David Swinehart
    Palm Treo 700wx, Dell Latitude X1, Wish I had a Foleo
  13. #33  
    I stand by Palm and still see the Foleo as a great idea. In order not to waste money, I think Palm should sell the original Foleo with the "new" Foleo/Treo OS for $299. This is in addition to a higher spec'd Foleo II.

    The Foleo II should have the specs below:

    1ghz ARM CPU
    fast video chipset
    4GB NVRAM storage
    HSPDA/EVDO/WiFi/Bluetooth
    A more stylish design (Think Apple)
    Integration with an online data syncing tool. (Your PC, Foleo, and Treo will all be synced up with each other over the intetnet)
    6 hours battery life
  14. #34  
    Thats what I suggest! (allthough $300 is a bit cheap for such a device)

    Surur
  15. #35  
    Remember the HP Jornada?


    You can still buy them used and like-new for $250-$450, depending on the model and accessories. Mordern day conviences like WiFi, FireFox, etc. are available.

    The Foleo was trying to hit a difficult market. Laptops are getting cheaper and smaller, UMPCs are also now on the sceen. Just check out all the new UMPC type devices showing up on engadget these days.

    Of course these are all Windoze devices... what will the M$ haters do

    The main problem I see is the keyboard. If you put a real keyboard on the device then you will be compared against full laptops, and the Foleo will loose out.

    Put a smaller keyboard then you have usability issues. The HTC Shift keyboard is supposedly large enough to touch type, so a Windows Mobile or Linux based system with this form factor makes sense (and would be approaching the lower pricepoints)

    The HTC Advantage has a keyboard that makes no sense, to large to use as a thumb board, to small to touch type.

    Use a smaller keyboard? Now you should just stick with your SmartPhone.

    So what would my ideal SmartPhone Companion be?

    UMPC type device, with no keyboard
    Digitizer touch screen for easy pen input
    Windows Mobile 6 (without Phone app) for battery life and lower cost
    Stand to hold device upright on desktop, connect my own mouse/keyboard
    Built-in WiFi, Bluetooth
    Sync with both SmartPhone AND desktop
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by millydog View Post
    I would like to see tabs for example that showed that I had multiple Word documents open at once. I would like to be able to switch between Word documents and Excel documents without having to save the document and close it to open the next one. A tab feature should allow me to switch between them and save when I wish.
    I've seen this mentioned a few times since Foleo was canceled. I'd just like to point out that you were able to have an unlimited number of documents open in Word To Go, Slideshow To Go, and Sheet To Go. There was a dropdown box at the top of the screen that allowed you to switch from one document to the next, and you could also use keyboard shortcuts to do so. You did not have to save the document; it was left in a suspended state so when you switch back to it, you're right back where you left off.

    edit: One other thing I forgot is that we implemented an "autosave" mechanism so that when you switched out of a document, or into another application, your changes would be saved to your document even if you did not explicitly perform a save. That way, your documents would always be up to date. Of course, you could still revert your changes if it turns out you really didn't want the file saved after all.

    I agree that having the switching done via tabs instead of the dropdown box would have been cool, but the basic functionality was already in place.

    --Nick
  17. #37  
    Nick,
    Will the new Foleo version of DTG be derived from the original Foleo version, or the Linux Treo version?
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by samkim View Post
    Nick,
    Will the new Foleo version of DTG be derived from the original Foleo version, or the Linux Treo version?
    I have no idea what the future plans for Foleo are. That being said, DTG is written in such a way that code can be shared across different platforms, so if there is a Foleo 2 and if DTG is on it, it would probably have much in common with the version(s) that run on other platforms.
  19. #39  
    Well answered. I was hoping you'd spill something.
  20. #40  
    My gripe with the Foleo hardware was the battery life, given the size. My bigger problem was the limited functionality if you didn't have a smartphone. I'm in the crowd that just doesn't get the "companion" concept in a laptop form factor.

    I would love it if the Foleo2 was closer to a Nokia n800/770 internet tablet. Give me a Palm-based tablet that runs my old apps (in a low res window, if need be) and handles the WiFi connections. Some kind of flash slot for plenty of data. EVDO/EDGE cardslot would be nice but like the nokias you could live without it if the device functions just fine autonomously via wifi.

    EDIT: Plus then it could cost like the Nokias ($350-400USD)
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