View Poll Results: How much would you be willing to pay for a Foleo?

Voters
118. You may not vote on this poll
  • $199

    33 27.97%
  • $299

    34 28.81%
  • $399

    34 28.81%
  • $499

    11 9.32%
  • $599

    6 5.08%
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Results 101 to 120 of 191
  1. #101  
    The point is, this is a DISCUSSION forum, last time I looked. You don't necessarily have to support anything. Or love everything about the Treo or Foleo to be here. Otherwise the Mods would have kicked out tons of posters who come here to tell Palm they have it wrong. But perhaps they know what "discussion" means.

    This forum may be "Palmcentric", but it doesn't say you need to love everything Palm does to discuss it's devices.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  2. #102  
    [QUOTE=The_Chupacabra;1324153]
    Quote Originally Posted by equalizer View Post


    Amazing. Why would "gzartman" create an entirely new user profile at Treocentral today simply to flame me? Could it be that he is afraid that his cowardly behavior will result in him getting banned?

    If you're going to post insults here, gzartman at least have the courage to post them under your regular user profile. It's cowards like you that need to "just go crawl back into what ever hole you clawed your way out of".
    Well maybe Satan can tell us why the Foleo is worth $500-$600.

    IMO, instant-on isn't good enough to charge a $200-$300 premium.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  3.    #103  
    Quote Originally Posted by The Phone Diva View Post
    I don't feel my time was wasted. He made some good points.

    Thank you. Unfortunately, it appears that two individuals here seem to believe that no one has the right to post to this site unless they are waving Foleo pom-poms and wearing a Palm-orange mini skirt. Anyone that does not blindly praise the Foleo will be subject to attack from the Foleo Forum Orange Shirts. So far, I have simply ignored the trolling posts from these individuals. I would hope that if they disagree with anything that I have said they would possess the intelligence to reply with credible arguments that refute anything that they disagree with. (Sorry, but crude insults do not count as "credible arguments".)
  4. #104  
    [QUOTE=The_Chupacabra;1324153]
    Quote Originally Posted by equalizer View Post


    Amazing. Why would "gzartman" create an entirely new user profile at Treocentral today simply to flame me? Could it be that he is afraid that his cowardly behavior will result in him getting banned?

    If you're going to post insults here, gzartman at least have the courage to post them under your regular user profile. It's cowards like you that need to "just go crawl back into what ever hole you clawed your way out of".
    Chupacabra,

    You have the wrong person. I am gzartman. I signed up for another profile a day or so after our heated exchange because I recieved calls at my office from either you or someone else on this forum who managed to track me down because I used my real name as part of my username on here.

    If you continue these personal attacks on me, I will have my corporate attorney go after Treocentral.com. I will not stand for attacks against my business. Yes, I do have deep enough pockets to do something about this.

    Tomorrow, I will contact Treocentral.com personally and tell them about all of this.

    TKOS (Gzarman)
  5.    #105  
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnH59 View Post
    Don't believe he hurt anyone's feelings or anything like that, but it is apparent that your a troller and flamer. Nobody has two posts, both towards an individual unless they have malicious motives.


    This individual tried flaming me under his other user name and apparently figured he could get away with more vitriolic insults with an new "anonymous" user name.

    It would be nice if people who disagree could simple have rational conversations rather than falling back to the predictable primitive chest-thumping that online threads often devolve into. As a general rule of thumb I'd suggest that if you wouldn't say something to someone face to face in real life, don't post it online.
  6.    #106  
    Quote Originally Posted by TheKingOfSting View Post

    Chupacabra,

    You have the wrong person. I am gzartman. I signed up for another profile a day or so after our heated exchange because I recieved calls at my office from either you or someone else on this forum who managed to track me down because I used my real name as part of my username on here.

    If you continue these personal attacks on me, I will have my corporate attorney go after Treocentral.com. I will not stand for attacks against my business. Yes, I do have deep enough pockets to do something about this.

    Tomorrow, I will contact Treocentral.com personally and tell them about all of this.

    TKOS (Gzarman)
    Whatever your name is, your behaviour suggests that you are mentally ill. Seriously. I would suggest you make an appointment with a medical professional to discuss your feelings.

    Please try to remember that this is a Foleo DISCUSSION site. Most of us are here because we would like to DISCUSS the Foleo. Like adults. Without having someone insulting them. Without someone flaming them. Without someone making puerile "threats" towards them.

    I hope you really do contact Treocentral on Friday. Once they have finished laughing at you, I hope they remove ALL of your accounts here because of your obnoxious, insulting, trolling behaviour. Have a nice day.
  7. #107  
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Chupacabra View Post
    Whatever your name is, your behaviour suggests that you are mentally ill. Seriously. I would suggest you make an appointment with a medical professional to discuss your feelings.

    Please try to remember that this is a Foleo DISCUSSION site. Most of us are here because we would like to DISCUSS the Foleo. Like adults. Without having someone insulting them. Without someone flaming them. Without someone making puerile "threats" towards them.

    I hope you really do contact Treocentral on Friday. Once they have finished laughing at you, I hope they remove ALL of your accounts here because of your obnoxious, insulting, trolling behaviour. Have a nice day.
    Chupacabra,

    My previous statements stand. You continue to harass me or my staff and there will be serious legal ramifications.

    This site, and you, are not above the law. You might think this is funny, and maybe foolish enough to think others are finding humor in this as well, but I don’t. I absolutely will not stand for your, or your associates, continued harassment of my staff by telephone.

    Point your attacks at someone else. You have no idea what you are getting yourself into.

    TKOS
  8. #108  
    Well things spun out of control rather fast here! I guess it really is time for me to go to bed.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  9. #109  
    [QUOTE=The Phone Diva;1324161]
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Chupacabra View Post

    Well maybe Satan can tell us why the Foleo is worth $500-$600.

    IMO, instant-on isn't good enough to charge a $200-$300 premium.
    We are not Satin, we are Equalizer.

    Chupacadra cannot do this anymore He attacks, Trolls, and Flames. We are here to tell evryone about him. so, that everyone here will not be be flammed by this Perrson.

    WE are here because we were told to come here and will continue to come back until Chupacadra is gone!!!!! We are everywhere, so good luck banning us. hehehehehehe
  10. #110  
    Chupacabra you are nothing but a freaking loser. We are on your sad A$$ like stink on $HIT

    Personally, I'm a freaking crazy A$$ motherr-F_CKER who should probably be in prison. I am mentally instable, but this is not the issue here.

    The issue here is how we are going to make your life miserable.

    OK, LET'S DANCE!!!!!
  11. #111  
    The Foleo just isn't worth what they're charging for it.
  12.    #112  
    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by The_Chupacabra
    I hope you will tolerate those of us who - unlike you - prefer to ruminate on issues.


    Ruminate away. Whatever gets you through the night.
    You seem to be becoming increasingly passionate about attempting to appear dispassionate. I hope this little discussion is not ruffling your feathers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    Quote:
    Sounds like you are having difficulty understanding the emotional attachment people have towards inanimate objects
    .

    So I've said.
    It seems odd that someone like you - who has at times shown that they are capable of posting thoughtful responses here - would at the same time be incapable of understanding something like that. I'll take your word that you truly do not understand this concept and leave it at that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    Quote:
    I suppose you would probably look at a Shelby Mustang and think, "Adequate transportation, but less economical than taking the bus." Perhaps someday you'll understand what all the fuss is about, Lieutenant Commander Data/Gameboy70.


    You get a gold star for creative writing today.
    Thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    Quote:
    I think you're being quite generous. Palm should have the basics ready by now. I'm sure they appreciate that you're so willing to buy something that should have been free, though.


    Health care should be free, yet I don't whine about my HMO. In a free market, I always have the option of going fee-for-service.

    I've been quite generous in listening to you reiterate that the Foleo doesn't meet your particular idea of basics. The reasonable inference to draw from this is that you're not getting one.
    If you truly believe that healthcare is "free" anywhere, then you are rather naïve. There is not a country in the world in which healthcare is truly "free". Of course, if you don't mind seeing your taxes increase by 10 or 20% then I'm sure the government could accommodate your wish for "free" healthcare.

    I'm so happy to hear that you have "been quite generous in listening to [me] reiterate that the Foleo doesn't meet [my] particular idea of basics". Your inference that I would not be purchasing a Foleo is probably incorrect. If Palm is able to reduce the price of the Foleo to around $400 while at the same time ensuring that there is adequate software support than I believe I would purchase one to play around with. The reported construction quality and the potential to have a laptop that is semi-disposable (i.e. it would not be a disaster if something happened to it) are two features that appeal to me.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    Quote:
    $800-$900 to get a crippled laptop with the advantage of instant-on versus a few hundred dollars more to get a Windows laptop with Windows applications, exponentially more memory, etc. And last time I checked there were a few more freeware apps available for Windows than for the Foleo's Palm Linux.


    I have a laptop. I have those freeware apps. I have all that computational horsepower. I do need a laptop from time to time, and nowhere have I argued otherwise.

    I drive a car, not an SUV. There are times when I would prefer having the extra payload capacity of an SUV, but a typical day for me isn't a shopping spree at Ikea or an offroad romp on the Rockies. So for me, SUVs just represent extra overhead as a tool for daily use, too much bulk.

    For me, writing, email and web research are my core areas of focus. I'm not the person who can't stand being unable to watch YouTube clips or DVDs that I could easily watch at home. I don't need to carry a tool with me that addresses every last contingency if it becomes a physical burden.

    You choose to spend 80% of your time emphasizing the 20% of computing needs that are the proper domain of a laptop, concluding that the Foleo's value is neglible. My educated guess (based on the Psion) is that I can spend 80% of my computing time using the Foleo, and the 20% on the laptop. If the proportion of actual Foleo use cases drops much below 80%, then I would call it a failed experiment, and pony up for the Sony.
    I do not believe that many of the Foleo's deficiencies that I have mentioned are "the proper domain of a laptop". In fact, I expect most of the major problems that have been pointed out with the Foleo will be corrected with either software patches or third-party applications released before the end of 2007. By merely adding a better browser, better email application, multimedia application, security application, remote desktop application, IM application and PIM suite the Foleo could quickly become significantly more useful to a much larger group of potential customers.

    It may be difficult for you to understand, however, not everyone uses applications in the same way that you do. While the Foleo as is could potentially provide you with 80% of the computer functionality you need based on how you use your computer, for many individuals the Foleo's missing features would prevent them from being able to comfortably leave their laptops at home and instead take a Foleo.

    Once again, it is sounding more and more like you may be a potential customer for the small Windows-based Sony laptop. I believe the most important question that needs to be answered for potential users of the Foleo is whether or not it can replace a high enough percentage of traditional Windows laptop usage to warrant carrying one instead of a Windows laptop. Had Palm included a remote desktop application with the standard Foleo software I suspect a lot more people would find it easier to justify purchasing a Foleo and leaving their laptops at home.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    Quote:
    Palm's job is to sell as many devices for the maximum profits possible. Their product stratification experts are the ones that have to decide if the respondents holding out for a $199, $299, $399 or $499 Foleo will get invitations to the Foleo party. Initial pricing has already been decided by Palm (using patented Magic 8 Ball marketing technology). Palm will have to adjust pricing as they receive feedback from the public. The definitive feedback revolves around actual sales figures. I hope you'll permit people here to continue stating the maximum price they are willing to pay for a Foleo in the meantime.


    By all means, state your maximum price. There's value in introspection, so stating that you're only willing to pay $299 for a $499 product may, after seeing what your typed in black and white, make you suddenly conscious of the fact that you're about $200 short of being interested -- and then you can channel your time and money into something that actually matters to you. Given my bias against wasting time, I'd rather dispense with the tortured deliberation, look at the product's cost/benefit to me (without looking over my shoulder to see if others agree), and decide whether or not to buy it. Much more effecient than waiting until late Spring for a possible price drop to vindicate a fragile ego.
    Goodness gracious! "Fragile ego"? Oh dear.

    You disappoint me, Gameboy70. If this is your attitude then I will refrain from responding to posts from you in the future so as to not upset you further.



    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    Quote:
    Yes, somehow you do misunderstand - even though the "purpose of the poll" is stated clearly at the start of the thread and in the thread title. Take a look for yourself.


    Since the thread title is about as logical as asking "At what temperature would you like water to boil?", I chose to editorialize. IMO, YMMV, my $.02, etc.
    Oh dear.
    If I may play the Devils advocate for a moment, the last time I checked, no one was offering a 100° "rebate" on the boiling point of water.

    Are you familiar with the term, "non sequitur"?


    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    Quote:
    In order to fully use a Foleo, a customer will need to own a Treo (and presumably be interested in Treos). As someone once said: "TreoCentral members are primarily interested in Treos (rumor has it that's where the site's name comes from)". And like Willie Sutton said, you rob banks "because that's where the money is".


    When the iPod was first released, a customer needed a Mac. Windows was not an option. I actually knew two people in early 2002 who bought iMacs just to use an iPod. Conversely, many Mac users have no interest in iPods, even to this day.
    And what do you think happened to the sales of iPods once it was possible for Windows users to also use them? Did iPod sales not skyrocket as soon as iPods began to support the hardware and software that most potential customers use daily? Likewise, does it not seem likely that Foleo sales would be better if the Foleo supported a wider selection of phones than just the Treo 7xx(p/w)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    Quote:
    Actually, I was asking you a question.


    Sorry, I thought it was rhetorical. But the answer is yes, up to a point. The polling questions were loaded rather loaded -- things like "Would you like the ability to listen to music while jogging?" The value proposition of some products isn't self-evident, and even presentations have their limits. Some products and services just need to be seen in the fabric of real life for their usefulness to become obvious. When email first became popular, many holdouts would say, "Why wouldn't I just call you?" They weren't stupid. They just didn't have an image of how email would thread into their lifestyle. I think the reaction, "Why wouldn't I just use a laptop?" is a similar phenomenon.
    I'm not familiar with the preliminary market research re: the Sony Walkman, but I would expect that if users were given the chance to see, hear and use a fully functional Sony Walkman then they would have been likely to have seen its merit. Likewise, if Palm is able to give potential customers the opportunity to either see a Foleo in action or (ideally) actually try out a Foleo personally then I feel they will have a much higher chance of making sales.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    Quote:
    The syncing concept was discussed here:

    http://discussion.treocentral.com/sh...d.php?t=146331


    Sorry, I'm too earthbound to see the Foleo or its implications as visionary. Despite the references that follow, I have no interest in accessorizing my way into a Star Trek utopia -- unless it results in a close encounter with 7-of-9.
    Careful with that "close encounter" fantasy. I do believe a precedent for restraining orders (and jail time) has been set. [I'm coming for YOU, Jeri Ryan!]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    Quote:
    Laptops are commiditized. Up until recently, small laptops have been a niche market that allowed manufacturers to maximize profits. The Asus Eee PC appears to have changed the rules for everyone.


    I'm not as confident, for reasons I'll cite later.
    I believe the Asus Eee PC has the potential to revolutionize the market in terms of changing what consumers expect in terms of computer specs for their dollar.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    Quote:
    If you say, "I've often considered buying a TX myself, just for it's size, but always stopped short due to the price." then many would argue that you are in fact a member of "Sony's target market for it". They just need to either adjust the price or do something else to make you willing to pull the trigger.


    Those who would argue that I am in Sony's target market for the TX are free to buy me one. Otherwise their arguments are of no value.
    Sorry, but if you're thinking about buying it then you're in their target market.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    Quote:
    Not quite. That only accounts for 95% of the reason why Apple is more successful then Palm. My previous post summarized the remaining 5% of why Apple continues to trump Palm.


    I wasn't aware that the two were competitors.
    I was referring to the fact that Apple's products in recent years have been much more successful and Palm's. Of course they now are formal competitors since the iPhone will likely be stealing potential customers from Palm's Treo lineup.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    Quote:
    I believe you missed the point. If you like PalmOS then you're stuck taking whatever devices that Palm is currently willing to offer you. There currently are no significant PalmOS options other than Palm these days. And (as seems to be the message from Palm to its traditional PDA fans) if you don't like it, don't let the door hit you on the way out.


    I can't get the pickup truck I want from Ferrari. I'm stuck with whatever the company has to offer. Oh, the arrogance!
    If Ferrari had previously offered pickup trucks (especially if its main line of business up until one year ago had been pickup trucks), then you're sarcasm would be excusable. But it isn't. Palm has lived by its PDA sales for the past 10 years, yet has turned its back on its traditional PDA customers by not updating the Palm PDA lineup in the past two years. Companies that ignore their traditional fan base are gambling with their future. Palm's decision to do so is difficult to understand given the fact that their PDAs could easily have been updated with negligible costs to Palm. Of course, cynics might suggest that Palm has intentionally killed off in its PDA market in an effort to push traditional PDA users towards "upgrading" their old devices to more lucrative Treos.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    Quote:
    Unfortunately for Palm, as more and more Windows laptops start shipping with flash memory instead of traditional hard drives there will be less of a penalty for leaving Windows in "suspend" mode, lessening the importance of "instant-on".


    I can only consult my intution on this one, since I've never used a solid state Windows laptop. I suspect the cost of throwing enough flash memory at Windows desktop OS in a small enough form factor will wind up being another Origami debacle. On the other hand, if Microsoft is smart, they'll take the Jornada 720 concept of using their mobile OS, but this time in a full-size form factor.

    In my experience, standby mode is only used right before giving a PowerPoint presentation or when Starbucks customers need to go to the restroom. It's a marginal use case, primarily because the OS has to boot before it can be suspended. Leave the power off for too long and the OS goes into hibernate, which isn't meaningfully faster to recover from than initiating a fresh boot cycle. Mac users are a notable exception.
    Samsung will supposedly be reducing the price of solid-state memory significantly this year. Laptops and desktops have long since reached the point where their specs are far more powerful than the needs of the majority of users. Realistically, given the way small laptops will likely be used 16 or 32 GB of memory will be "more than enough". Once the prices for the sizes of memory come down to reasonable levels, I expect a sales of solid-state memory devices to take off. The Asus Eee PC has the potential to play a significant role in introducing consumers to the benefits of solid-state memory in a laptop.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    Quote:
    I have used several instant-on pseudo-laptops over the years and have found that I would rather have access to full-sized and function traditional Windows applications rather than saving a minute or two every day not having to wait as long for applications to become available. Instant-on maybe a big deal for you, however, I hope you can appreciate that for many individuals who have long since adapted to waiting for Windows to boot up, instant-on might not be that that big of a deal.


    With no major instant-on product currently on the market, it would be surprising if any segment of the population hadn't long since accustomed itself to protracted boots, just like they were accustomed to snail mail right through the early nineties. As more people got email accounts, their tolerance of 24+ hour information floats diminished. Naturally, when you need a CPU-intensive application, you're going to pull out the laptop and deal with the boot. That's OK.
    I use standby frequently in my laptop and don't see "instant on" and is being such a huge benefit as Palm is attempting to make it appear to be. Of course, if enough applications are released for the Foleo that it can become in a sense a large PDA then instant on might actually become a significant feature for most users.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    Quote:
    What do you think I'm doing now every time I open up the Web application on my Treo 700p?


    Adding network latency to zero boot time, i.e. waiting 4 minutes instead of 2 minutes. Not trivial, in my opinion.
    Actually, my comment about the Treo 700p was a facetious jab at Palm for the ridiculous amount of delay seen in switching between and opening up certain app locations. A 10 second delay in starting a Windows laptop may be acceptable, however, that same delay in opening up a PalmOS application seems like an eternity, especially to users accustomed to near-instantaneous responses in their PalmOS applications.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    Quote:
    Confucius say:

    "Live by the Palm fanboy, die by the Palm fanboy."
    "Hell hath no fury like a fanboy scorned"


    Chupacabra say:
    Quote:
    Let's leave crude ad hominem attacks out of this thread please.
    I hope you are not trying to insinuate that my use of the term "Palm fanboy" is somehow on the same level as your previous comment about the "jejune rants of Mike Cane and Jeff Kirvin".


    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    Quote:
    Conspiracy theory? No - merely how money is made in the REAL world. Sorry to burst your bubble, but the stock market is about manipulation, insider trading and deception. And one more thing... the is no Santa Claus. Sorry.


    You're quite the cosmopolitan. Evidently I'm just not in the know.
    Obviously.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    Quote:
    If your laptop was reasonably secured, it would take a determined thief to expose your personal information. On the other hand, Palm's decision to store the bulk of a user's data on the completely unsecured CompactFlash card means that all of that data is easily accessible to anyone with a $10 card reader, a nickel to unscrew the Foleo's CompactFlash storage slot and a few minutes to download all of your precious data. And the Foleo is supposed to be a business-centric device? Get serious.


    I take full responsibility for not securing my Gateway. As far as the Foleo, my understanding is that the default user storage is in non-volatile RAM, which is securable with password protection and bluetooth key proximity. Writing sensitive data to the CF card without something like TealSafe installed would by like moving your Treo's Contacts database to the SD card. Also, having a Unix filesystem, you can set the read-write permissions on any files you choose. You could designate root-only access only, reinforced by BT proximity. A thief would be able to erase the card by reformatting it, but cracking the security would take some sophistication. Not impossible, but probably beyond the scope of the average thief's skill set.
    I think it's reasonable to expect that most individuals purchasing a Foleo will quickly install a CompactFlash card to expand the memory. If it will be easy for users to (out-of-the-box) prevent unauthorized reading of the contents of the CompactFlash card, then I stand corrected. However, this is not my understanding based on the limited information that I have read on the Internet. As far as I know, without a third-party application like TealLock data on the CompactFlash card is quite vulnerable. Perhaps someone like Ben Combee would be willing to give a more definitive answer here prior to the release of the Foleo this month.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    Quote:
    Everything listed is a valid issue that Palm will need to address if they wish to seriously market the Foleo to a group of customers other than a tiny niche of Linux-loving, Treo-owning, wealthy Palm fanatics . . .

    Quote:
    Let's leave crude ad hominem attacks out of this thread please.

    Quote:
    . . . that are seeking a small laptop and are willing to overlook the Foleo's many current deficiencies. Unfortunately for Palm, the "punchline" appears to be that yet again, the company may have taken an excellent basic idea and just missed the mark by failing to sweat the details, leaving the door wide open for the competition. I don't find Palm failing to execute on an otherwise clever package to be all that funny.


    Obviously, you don't. Come to think of it, I'm getting pretty bored myself, so I'll probably move on to more productive endeavors after wrapping up this post.
    Oh dear. Must. Become. More. Dispassionate. Must. Appear. More. Blasé. Does. Not. Compute. Daaaaiiiiissssyyyyy...


    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    Quote:
    I don't pretend to have ever used a Foleo, however, those who have have reported these issues. If you prefer to discount these reports, so be it. Once the Foleo is "out in the wild" in a week or two hopefully you'll have all of the "hands-on experience... authority... and objectivity" that you can handle. No doubt you'll find some way to dismiss any reviews finding fault with the Foleo as being irrelevant to what you perceive to be its raison d'être.


    Hmm, a lot of angst over a gadget. I distinguish between acknowledging faults and "getting off" on them. I can only say that the Foleo lacks tabbed browsing, a PIM, OBEX file transfer, etc. so many times. I'm aware of PTG's limitations, so if I relied on PowerPoint, I'd probably hold off on getting a Foleo. If YouTube was a priority, I'd stick with a laptop.
    Angst? Please. Hyperbole tends to ring false coming from you. Seems somewhat forced.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    Quote:
    I guess this all boils down to the fact that you feel that the Foleo provides adequate value for your money, while others expect more. This is probably an issue on which we will have to "agree to disagree" since - by definition - "value" is a highly subjective concept.


    It boils down to the fact that I'll be getting a Foleo, evaluating how well it integrates into my life, and returning/selling it if the experiment fails. I'm pretty zen about the whole issue. It's just a tool, not a prosthetic for my ego, not the Next Big Thing, not the dark horse I'm betting the farm on. If the Foleo fails, and takes Palm down with it, the world will still turn.
    What a wonderfully well-adjusted attitude you have. I hope you're not just saying that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    Quote:
    I don't believe the question is whether or not "there is a market for it", but rather how large that market may be. If I invented a plutonium-powered back scratcher and the king of Saudi Arabia ordered one then technically I could also claim "there's a market for it". The more important question would be how viable that market might be.


    By "a market," I actually meant "a viable market," but I certainly wouldn't waste time trying to codify viability in the absence of data.
    Okay.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    Quote:
    No. The Foleo will be a success if Palm is able to make a reasonable amount of profit selling the device. It will be a failure if Palm doesn't make a reasonable amount of profit selling the device. This isn't "analysis" or "guesswork". This is the cold, hard reality of business.


    The only way to know what kind of profit they're making is to know their margins and their total inventory. I would guess that their margins are high and their inventories are low, relative to more established products.
    I would HOPE that for the Foleo Palm will ensure that "their margins are high and their inventories are low, relative to more established products". However, I do wonder (based on the 2004-2005 types specs) whether or not Palm had much of its stock of Foleos built more than a year ago when their net costs would have been much higher. As such, there may be less flexibility in pricing available to Palm than there would be if the devices had been built up with the same specs in 2007.



    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    Quote:
    I doubt that Palm will get into specifics re: the number of Foleos sold per quarter. They will likely hide it within the PDA sales in order to avoid pressure or potential embarrassment if the Foleo proves unpopular.


    I'm not sure Sarbanes-Oxley makes provisions for that kind of accounting. But you're the expert on Wall Street.
    You would be surprised what goes on behind closed doors on The Street. The only thing Enron did wrong was get caught.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    Quote:
    Unless you know exactly how much profit is built into the sale of each Asus Eee PC and Palm Foleo (including rebates) I would question the veracity of your comment about numbers of sales needed for sustainable profitability. You also seem to have overlooked the minor detail that total profits = profits per unit x total number of units sold. If Asus makes $100 profit per Eee PC and sells 2 million of them per quarter while Palm makes $300 profit per Foleo but sells only 5000 of them per quarter, which company is more likely to have acceptable "sustainable profitability"? I wonder if they teach the answer to questions like that in Economics 101?


    I consciously avoided discussing the total of units sold precisely because I have absolutely no idea how many either comany has to sell. And while I haven't followed the specifics of computer manufacturing in years, my understanding is that only Apple and Sony get better than 20% margins, largely due to having their own retail outlets (like Palm). No one gets 50% margins on hardware, especially on a $200 sale. If Asus were simply installing an off-the-shelf Linux on the Eee, I'd expect their margins to be around 12%. Since Asus is probably selling the Eee though the likes of NewEgg, and since they're customizing Linux for speed, I would guess their margins to be under 10%. And there's no way the Eee's going to outsell the Foleo by a factor of 400 like you've stated. If price and sales were directly reciprocal, the Eee would outsell the Foleo by a factor of 3.

    If they were directly reciprocal -- i.e. if they comprised an inverse linear function. But I don't think that's necessarily true. Let's say a kid with a lemonade stand cuts his price from $.10 to $.05. Does it follow that his sales will double, given the motivations that drive adults to patronize young entrepreneurs? If I run a hotel marketed to the affluent, does it follow that lowering the price of a $10,000-a-night room to $8,000 will increase reservations rather than raising the price to $12,000, given the vanity of the average target in this market? I suspect the Foleo and the Eee will sell more or less evenly, for a variety of factors beyond price.
    First of all, I believe you are sadly mistaken if you truly feel that Foleo and the Eee PC will put up similar sales numbers. The Eee PC is priced low enough that it can almost be considered an "impulse buy" that will be purchased by many individuals either as a semi-disposable "extra" computer for surfing the Internet/email or a toy to hack around/experiment with. The Foleo is currently priced beyond what most users would consider reasonable to spend for an "extra" computer.

    Okay, let's put up some pretend numbers:

    Assume Foleo costs Palm $300 to build/sell. With initial selling price of $600 (assume no one sends in the rebates) = $300 profit per unit. Assume total sales volume of 10,000 units over the final six months of 2007 = $3 million profit. So for every 10,000 Foleos that Palm sells they'll take in $3 million profit.

    Assume Asus Eee PC cost Asus $200 to build/sell. With initial selling price of $250 = $50 profit per unit. (Conservatively) assume total sales volume of 200,000 units over the final six months of 2007 = $10 million profit. So for every 200,000 Eee PCs that Asus sells they'll take in $10 million profit.

    It will be interesting to see what the small laptop landscape looks like by January 2008.
  13. #113  
    So I left at the right time, LOL! Geez!

    I don't think a legit discussion is trolling and flaming.

    If you think Chupa is trolling and flaming, have you looked at the "10 things I hate about the iPhone" thread?
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  14. #114  
    KingOfSting: I would add, as I am a TOS fan myself:

    "In every revolution, there is one man with a vision."
    Nice 'Mirror, Mirror' quote, King. But remember how Beard-Spock's grand vision turned out in the end? Human enslavement, baby! Our cool Empire crushed beneath the jackboot of the Klingons and Cardassians. (see DS9's excellent "Crossover".)

    So, I suppose the real-life analogy would be that Hawkins might have the vision with the Foleo... but in the end it could turn out to be what destroys Palm.

    (I don't believe that to be true, but man do I love a good Star Trek chat. )

    Gameboy70: I have no interest in accessorizing my way into a Star Trek utopia -- unless it results in a close encounter with 7-of-9.
    7-of-9! You sellout! Sure, she was hot... and efficient... and a top actor too... but IMHO the Ultimate Trek Babe award remains firmly in Ezri Dax's oh-so-cute possession. Even if she was oh-so-annoying.
    Last edited by freakout; 08/03/2007 at 09:07 AM.
  15. #115  
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Chupacabra View Post
    You seem to be becoming increasingly passionate about attempting to appear dispassionate. I hope this little discussion is not ruffling your feathers.
    Chupacabra say:
    Let's leave crude ad hominem attacks out of this thread please.
    It seems odd that someone like you - who has at times shown that they are capable of posting thoughtful responses here - would at the same time be incapable of understanding something like that. I'll take your word that you truly do not understand this concept and leave it at that.
    That is wise.

    If you truly believe that healthcare is "free" anywhere, then you are rather naïve. There is not a country in the world in which healthcare is truly "free". Of course, if you don't mind seeing your taxes increase by 10 or 20% then I'm sure the government could accommodate your wish for "free" healthcare.
    Or I might not mind seeing the 50% of my tax dollars currently spent on questionable-to-immoral military endeavors reduced to, say, 30-40% with the balance redirected, and open to public accounting. But the relevent part of my statement was "yet I don't whine about my HMO." So the world doesn't fit the anarchosyndicalist utopia I'd prefer. I still pay my own way.

    Your inference that I would not be purchasing a Foleo is probably incorrect. If Palm is able to reduce the price of the Foleo to around $400 while at the same time ensuring that there is adequate software support than I believe I would purchase one to play around with. The reported construction quality and the potential to have a laptop that is semi-disposable (i.e. it would not be a disaster if something happened to it) are two features that appeal to me.
    Offering $400 for a $500 product sure sounds a lot like "no."

    I do not believe that many of the Foleo's deficiencies that I have mentioned are "the proper domain of a laptop". In fact, I expect most of the major problems that have been pointed out with the Foleo will be corrected with either software patches or third-party applications released before the end of 2007. By merely adding a better browser, better email application, multimedia application, security application, remote desktop application, IM application and PIM suite the Foleo could quickly become significantly more useful to a much larger group of potential customers.
    Then they'll sell far less of them, and you'll be vindicated.

    It may be difficult for you to understand, however, not everyone uses applications in the same way that you do. While the Foleo as is could potentially provide you with 80% of the computer functionality you need based on how you use your computer, for many individuals the Foleo's missing features would prevent them from being able to comfortably leave their laptops at home and instead take a Foleo.
    I've already pointed out a spectrum of users for whom the Foleo is unrealistic: those whose profession requires industry-specific applications. I used to be an architecture student. My day consisted of carrying around AutoCAD, FormZ, Rhinoceros, VectorWorks, Photoshop and Illustrator. Not only would a Foleo have added no value to my day, but it would've been counterproductive. Other vocations a similar vein would be accounting, film editing, engineering, music production and so on. On the other hand, lawyers, executives, sales reps, writers and consultants are generally not tied to a platform -- you don't need IE to use LexisNexis -- so they have more options.

    Clearly, there are people out there who simply devour YouTube. I can only suggest, without proof, that I'm probably in norm at watching 2 or 3 YouTube clips a week, which is not worth carrying around double the weight.

    Once again, it is sounding more and more like you may be a potential customer for the small Windows-based Sony laptop.
    For the current price, I'll pass. No tortured deliberations needed here.

    I believe the most important question that needs to be answered for potential users of the Foleo is whether or not it can replace a high enough percentage of traditional Windows laptop usage to warrant carrying one instead of a Windows laptop. Had Palm included a remote desktop application with the standard Foleo software I suspect a lot more people would find it easier to justify purchasing a Foleo and leaving their laptops at home.
    As fond as I am of remote access, I doubt that the average user will care. It would be more of an issue if Palm were targeting the vertical market, but I see no evidence of this.

    If I may play the Devils advocate for a moment, the last time I checked, no one was offering a 100° "rebate" on the boiling point of water.
    You can choose to call the price "$499", or "$599 with a $100 MIR", just as you can call water's boiling point 100 degrees Celsius or 212 degrees Fahrenheit. The latter is law by physics, the former by fiat, but neither is a negotiation. If you disagree, you're free to call Palm's bluff.

    And what do you think happened to the sales of iPods once it was possible for Windows users to also use them? Did iPod sales not skyrocket as soon as iPods began to support the hardware and software that most potential customers use daily? Likewise, does it not seem likely that Foleo sales would be better if the Foleo supported a wider selection of phones than just the Treo 7xx(p/w)?
    Absolutely. Their roadmap is to support as many 3G phones as possible. It's up to you to decide whether their stilted release management is due to resource constraints or dishonesty.

    I'm not familiar with the preliminary market research re: the Sony Walkman, but I would expect that if users were given the chance to see, hear and use a fully functional Sony Walkman then they would have been likely to have seen its merit. Likewise, if Palm is able to give potential customers the opportunity to either see a Foleo in action or (ideally) actually try out a Foleo personally then I feel they will have a much higher chance of making sales.
    Naturally. Remember, we're currently in a pre-announcement phase, hence the "Sneak Preview" status of the product demos. Still, as much as I hate Monday morning quaterbacking, it would've been smarter for Palm to give review units to influential "fanboys" like Mossberg and Pogue to massage public interest before the Hawkins presentation.

    Careful with that "close encounter" fantasy
    I'll settle for the other 8 of 9. That would be enough entertainment for one night.

    I believe the Asus Eee PC has the potential to revolutionize the market in terms of changing what consumers expect in terms of computer specs for their dollar.
    I can only reserve judgement, looking at the whole ecology of supply and demand. If I were considering buying Asus stock, the Eee would give me pause. There are only so many Southeast Asian factories to nickel and dime, and the Eee looks like an inherently low margin risk, with nowhere to go if sales fall short of expectations. At least OLPCs have entire governments for customers, so the component costs on higher runs are low enough from the outset, and the sales are more or less locked in.

    Sorry, but if you're thinking about buying it then you're in their target market.
    If I'm not buying it then I'm not.

    I was referring to the fact that Apple's products in recent years have been much more successful and Palm's. Of course they now are formal competitors since the iPhone will likely be stealing potential customers from Palm's Treo lineup.
    Apple's market value is higher than Dell. Everything from Apple is pitched at a higher level. I don't watch TV, but I've heard many discussions of Apple's commercials, whereas I'm not aware that Palm runs commercials on TV. Steve can announce more products in one keynote than Palm has resources to release in 2 years. Steve was given "final cut" on the iPhone by AT&T, while Jeff's main source of excitement about developing the Foleo was not having to make concessions to carriers anymore.

    Many potential cell phone customers will opt for the iPhone over the Treo, just like many potential laptop customers will opt for Windows over Leopard. Unwelcome competition, to be sure. C'est la vie.

    If Ferrari had previously offered pickup trucks (especially if its main line of business up until one year ago had been pickup trucks), then you're sarcasm would be excusable. But it isn't. Palm has lived by its PDA sales for the past 10 years, yet has turned its back on its traditional PDA customers by not updating the Palm PDA lineup in the past two years.
    Or customers "turned their backs" on Palm by not demonstrating themselves to comprise a large enough market to warrant devoting further R&D to a commoditized space. After all, why do you rob banks again?

    Companies that ignore their traditional fan base are gambling with their future. Palm's decision to do so is difficult to understand given the fact that their PDAs could easily have been updated with negligible costs to Palm. Of course, cynics might suggest that Palm has intentionally killed off in its PDA market in an effort to push traditional PDA users towards "upgrading" their old devices to more lucrative Treos.
    Neglible? Sony, with all of their resources, furiously updated their Palm OS PDAs, only to realize that their American sales didn't justify the R&D.

    Samsung will supposedly be reducing the price of solid-state memory significantly this year. Laptops and desktops have long since reached the point where their specs are far more powerful than the needs of the majority of users. Realistically, given the way small laptops will likely be used 16 or 32 GB of memory will be "more than enough". Once the prices for the sizes of memory come down to reasonable levels, I expect a sales of solid-state memory devices to take off. The Asus Eee PC has the potential to play a significant role in introducing consumers to the benefits of solid-state memory in a laptop.
    The key to making this work is eliminating the overhead of Vista. Asus is doing the right thing by tweaking Linux for faster boot times an faster application launching. Microsoft has an opportunity to position WM, not Vista, as the Windows OS of choice for SSDs

    I use standby frequently in my laptop and don't see "instant on" and is being such a huge benefit as Palm is attempting to make it appear to be. Of course, if enough applications are released for the Foleo that it can become in a sense a large PDA then instant on might actually become a significant feature for most users.
    There's nothing I can say here that hasn't been said before. Moving on . . .

    Actually, my comment about the Treo 700p was a facetious jab at Palm for the ridiculous amount of delay seen in switching between and opening up certain app locations. A 10 second delay in starting a Windows laptop may be acceptable, however, that same delay in opening up a PalmOS application seems like an eternity, especially to users accustomed to near-instantaneous responses in their PalmOS applications.
    Exactly why I returned it.

    I hope you are not trying to insinuate that my use of the term "Palm fanboy" is somehow on the same level as your previous comment about the "jejune rants of Mike Cane and Jeff Kirvin".
    My mistake for misjudging insightful pearls such as "Finally, the 'Hawk' has taken flight… right into a power line" or "Oh Look! I Get To Bash Palm And Nokia At The Same Time! It’s Two Two Two Hits In One!" Paragons of maturity, in hindsight.

    I think it's reasonable to expect that most individuals purchasing a Foleo will quickly install a CompactFlash card to expand the memory. If it will be easy for users to (out-of-the-box) prevent unauthorized reading of the contents of the CompactFlash card, then I stand corrected. However, this is not my understanding based on the limited information that I have read on the Internet. As far as I know, without a third-party application like TealLock data on the CompactFlash card is quite vulnerable. Perhaps someone like Ben Combee would be willing to give a more definitive answer here prior to the release of the Foleo this month.
    The file system I saw had a standard Unix permission scheme, so password protecting the read priviledges of the entire CF mount is trivial, especially when combined with Bluetooth proximity. Even without securing the files, the very fact that it's not Fat32 will make the volume appear empty to in Windows Explorer (as does my miniSDHC on my Windows partition), and only an exceptionably knowledgeable thief would think twice about investigating further. If security is an issue for you, you'll take a few moments to find out your options. If not (as was the case with my Gateway incident), you've got user error problems.

    I would HOPE that for the Foleo Palm will ensure that "their margins are high and their inventories are low, relative to more established products". However, I do wonder (based on the 2004-2005 types specs) whether or not Palm had much of its stock of Foleos built more than a year ago when their net costs would have been much higher. As such, there may be less flexibility in pricing available to Palm than there would be if the devices had been built up with the same specs in 2007.
    My guess is that only a tiny run a prototypes for internal use were built prior to last Summer, since January is when insiders started noticing a spike in Palm's hiring of Linux developers.

    First of all, I believe you are sadly mistaken if you truly feel that Foleo and the Eee PC will put up similar sales numbers. The Eee PC is priced low enough that it can almost be considered an "impulse buy" that will be purchased by many individuals either as a semi-disposable "extra" computer for surfing the Internet/email or a toy to hack around/experiment with. The Foleo is currently priced beyond what most users would consider reasonable to spend for an "extra" computer.
    Your point is truer for hackers than mainstream consumers. But I'd rather not spend more time with idle speculation. I've already stated my position.

    Okay, let's put up some pretend numbers
    See above.
  16. #116  
    I think pricing is very subjective. Here are a few examples

    Ultralight Laptop
    Why people are willing to pay 2K get a ultralight laptop with a slow processor and slow hard drive instead of paying 500 to 800 to get a more heavy and powerful laptop? The answer is simple, price and performance are not the concern.

    Properiety Device
    There are a lot of high price product, such as HTC U1000, Sony eBook Ready, OQO etc., does it mean nobody will buy it?

    Cell phone
    Another example is cell phone, in Asia, a lot of people changing their cell phone every quarter, each phone is cost more than US$450. Does the new phone really bundle ton of software? They just buy the phone for making phone call and send text messages. They only want the latest phone.

    MP3 Player
    A lot of MP3 player have more features compare to iPod and its price is a lot cheaper than iPod, why people buy iPod?


    What kind of software should be included in Foleo? The answer is also very subjective. My company has a lot of users using Treo, they don't even spend a single cent in software. But in the Forum, you may find a lot of so-called must have software. Who really care? My another point is when people buying laptop, why they don't request to bundle all the software? If I want to use IM, I need to download from MSN or Yahoo. If this is the case, is it fair to ask Palm to bundle the software you want? I understand everyone has their own need, the most important is making sure the software they wanted is available.

    Last but not least, people like to say Foleo is the Laptop. Palm already clearly define Foleo is a mobile companion, it does not intend to replace the laptop and desktop. Maybe in the future, Foleo will evolve to become a laptop replacement, then give you comments at that moment. Who knows, maybe the future Foleo is 2ghz CPU, 1GB memory and 1TB storage. Another point raised out by users is memory. How much is enough? I have a windows mobile phone with 1GB of memory, so what? I still bought a 4GB SD card without using the built-in memory. I have a 200GB of hard drive in my desktop, I only use 40GB. They most important is we are able to add more memory whenever we want.

    I have discussed with the following group of users informally, all of them are interested in Foleo and none of them complaining about the price and lack of software:

    Professional (Accountants / Attorneys - more than 10 users)
    All want to have a Foleo as they hate to wait for the windows startup and the time of opening an application. (Not everyone use standby or hibernate, most of them don't even know how to use it.) Sometimes, after they shut down the computer and they just want to change a few words, they need to wait for another 5 to 10 minutes (please note that their corporate laptops have a lot of integrated software.) I asked them whether mediaplayer is important, they all said, it doesn't matter as all my songs are in my iPod. They don't want to system run out battery because of listening to music.

    Student (Univerisity - more than 20 users)
    They like the battery life and think the price is reasonable. Most of them are bought the cheap heavy laptop with short battery life, therefore, they find that if is very heavy to carry the laptop around the campus and the main problem is the short battery life. They also like the instant on features. They think it is important as they can drop down the note anytime anywhere.

    Friends (more than 10)
    A lot friends want the Foleo for their parents, wife and kids study K12. For their parents and wife, most of them are using Internet and email only. They only want to have a simple device to meet their purpose. For the kids, some they don't want their kids to spend a lot of time in playing games or IM friend therefore they think it is a good idea to give the kids a Foleo. Of course they all have a full function desktop at home.

    Conclusion: I will buy doesn't mean other will buy, vice verse.

    P.S I have written an article about the Foleo and Future Palm OS, if interested, please visit my blog.
  17. #117  
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Chupacabra View Post
    Most reports say that the Foleo seems to be nicely constructed. While it might by far behind the Asus Eee PC in terms of specs, specs aren't all that matter. Some of us (like me) are willing to pay a little more for less specs if we feel a device has high quality construction. Like getting the cheapest (well made) Lexus instead of the most expensive (poorly made) Cadillac.
    If you read about the Eee. It has some issues:

    1) Horrible battery life
    2) Like most modern laptops, it gets rather hot.urns hot,
    3) Flimsy case. (They say the plastic used is very thin)
    4) No instant on
    5) Memory hog
    6) Keyboard is designed for children (Not full sized keys)

    (If I am going to go with a full laptop, the Eee in no way will cut it for me.)

    When the Foleo ships, as a user, it doesn't have enough functionality for me to purchase one. If I understand correctly, Palm will be rapidly improving the shipped software configuration, and releasing updates. So, the idead, I think is that it will grow into it's price. (If that makes any sense).

    One question. Is the iPhone, at basically the same price as a Foleo, a better deal?
    HP200LX -> Palm Pilot -> Palm III -> Sony PEG-300 -> Sony PEG-N710C -> Treo 650 -> Treo 700p -> Treo 755p -> (iPhone or Treo 800L or something unexpected)??
  18. #118  
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandorr View Post
    When the Foleo ships, as a user, it doesn't have enough functionality for me to purchase one. If I understand correctly, Palm will be rapidly improving the shipped software configuration, and releasing updates. So, the idead, I think is that it will grow into it's price. (If that makes any sense).
    That's pretty much what I believe. Right now it's worth the stated price to a fraction of potential users, and that fraction will grow as updates are added. Releasing it at a lower price makes impossible to raise the price downstream as the software configuration approaches true "1.0" status.
  19. Gerorne's Avatar
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    #119  
    But of course, how "rapidly" remains to be seen. I do have some faith in that though.
    Vx --> M515 --> T|T3 --> T|T5
    --> Treo 650 --> Centro --> Dinc

    Smart Jones - a smartphone webcomic
  20. #120  
    I imagine, that a fair amount of software updates will be available by the time they start selling through regular stores.
    JasonRM79

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