View Poll Results: How much would you be willing to pay for a Foleo?

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118. You may not vote on this poll
  • $199

    33 27.97%
  • $299

    34 28.81%
  • $399

    34 28.81%
  • $499

    11 9.32%
  • $599

    6 5.08%
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  1. #81  
    You know I am sure this has been mentioned somewhere in the past, but people use to rake ipod over the coals when it first came out. They said things like its over priced and there already products out there that do this.

    People are saying the same things now about Foleo. I wander when it all said and done how many of us will go ahead and pony up. I hope someone will do a poll in six-months and see what people are saying about Foleo prices then.
    Last edited by JasonRM79; 07/31/2007 at 05:26 PM.
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  2. #82  
    Gameboy: Jeff Hawkins or Dean Kamen can drop all the hints they want, they have no dominion over your fantasies. If their announcements don't deliver on their hints, then it's time to acknowledge the fact and move on.
    Unfortunately, humans don't usually operate that way. Sad fact of life really. But there's a quote I like to keep in mind, especially on the internet: "When everybody thinks alike, nobody thinks much at all."
  3. TxDot's Avatar
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    #83  
    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    I certainly can't stop people from investing objects with semantic content. Like I said, maybe I have a gene missing. Anyway, I wouldn't want to offend you by trivializing something you're obviously anxious about, so I'll drop it.
    So now you have me at a disadvantage. I'm not anxious about anything but since I've responded you'll say "yes you are" so I'll just stop trying to help you understand something that you're obviously anxious about. Seriously, no problem here...
    GSM Treo 600 > Unlocked GSM Treo 650 on T-Mobile - Attempting to use a BB Curve

    Technology is neither good nor evil, good people will find good uses for it and evil people will find evil uses for it. Phil P.
  4. #84  
    Quote Originally Posted by TxDot View Post
    So now you have me at a disadvantage. I'm not anxious about anything but since I've responded you'll say "yes you are" so I'll just stop trying to help you understand something that you're obviously anxious about. Seriously, no problem here...
    You can tell me that you're not anxious, but it's up to me to believe you

    Anyway, as long as turning my passing flag desecration reference into a launchpad for righteous nationalism doesn't become a long-winded harangue, feel free to school me. My ego won't be bruised.
  5.    #85  
    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    Sure, but for how long and to what end? I'm not against pointing out flaws, even more than once. But life's too short to dwell on the obvious. I've already said what I don't like about the Foleo. As new issues come to light I'll react accordingly.
    Fair enough. I hope you will tolerate those of us who - unlike you - prefer to ruminate on issues.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    Nor do I, which is why I've mentioned the PIM issue several times. Repeating it 50 times might be more cathartic, but it would have zero additional polemic value.
    See above.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    The "sturm and drang" comment actually referred to the tempestuous reaction of many bloggers, pundits and forum members to the Foleo announcement, not the PIM issue per se.
    See above.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    Maybe I have a gene missing. I'm genuinely unable to comprehend why anyone would get emotionally upset over an inanimate object, whether it's a desecrated flag or an overpriced gadget. When Palm announced the LifeDrive, my reaction was, "Hmm, that's not for me," not "Are your freakin' kidding me?!" Sure, I like the Foleo, but it's not like my life is incomplete without it, so I have no sense of entitlement that compels me to demand better terms from Palm, though I'd always prefer more features at lower prices.
    Sounds like you are having difficulty understanding the emotional attachment people have towards inanimate objects. I suppose you would probably look at a Shelby Mustang and think, "Adequate transportation, but less economical than taking the bus." Perhaps someday you'll understand what all the fuss is about, Lieutenant Commander Data/Gameboy70.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    It's pretty obvious that the Foleo is being released less than fully baked. As a consumer you have to ask yourself if the product, as it stands right now, fills your needs; if not, hold off or move on to something better. With mDayscape on board (which I'm not happy about being an aftermarket product), the Foleo does exactly what I need, so I happen to be in Palm's target market for this. I'll be happy if Flash video support and tabbed browsing are added, but those features aren't driving my purchase decision.
    I think you're being quite generous. Palm should have the basics ready by now. I'm sure they appreciate that you're so willing to buy something that should have been free, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    So it costs $800-900 to realize your particular ideal of basic functionality -- and you get the advantages of small size, instant-on, etc. Except for media players and non-groupware PIMs, which are free on desktop operating systems, adding commercial software necessarily increases the TCO of Foleos and laptops.
    $800-$900 to get a crippled laptop with the advantage of instant-on versus a few hundred dollars more to get a Windows laptop with Windows applications, exponentially more memory, etc. And last time I checked there were a few more freeware apps available for Windows than for the Foleo's Palm Linux.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    Pretty accurate so far (well, except for my spelling ).
    Accurate? Nope. Merely your (hyperbolic) opinion.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    I'm not a fan of wasting time. Demanding company lower their announced MSRP on an unreleased product is clearly naive, ineffectual and immature. Only one factor has any leverage in compelling companies to lower their prices: excess inventory.
    No one is demanding anything. Nor is anyone being "naive, ineffectual and immature". They are simply stating what price they would be willing to buy a Foleo for. Palm's job is to sell as many devices for the maximum profits possible. Their product stratification experts are the ones that have to decide if the respondents holding out for a $199, $299, $399 or $499 Foleo will get invitations to the Foleo party. Initial pricing has already been decided by Palm (using patented Magic 8 Ball marketing technology). Palm will have to adjust pricing as they receive feedback from the public. The definitive feedback revolves around actual sales figures. I hope you'll permit people here to continue stating the maximum price they are willing to pay for a Foleo in the meantime.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    Maybe I misunderstand the purpose of the poll. Maybe it's not to campaign for lower prices, but to commiserate with other disgruntled consumers. If so, you have my sympathy but not my solidarity.
    Yes, somehow you do misunderstand - even though the "purpose of the poll" is stated clearly at the start of the thread and in the thread title. Take a look for yourself.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    If the survey asked Ferrari customers if they would consider purchasing a new product category -- say, pickup trucks rather than sportscars -- the survey would have merit. TreoCentral members are primarily interested in Treos (rumor has it that's where the site's name comes from). In fact, one of the main objections to the Foleo has been that its development has taken resources away from improving the Treo line.
    In order to fully use a Foleo, a customer will need to own a Treo (and presumably be interested in Treos). As someone once said: "TreoCentral members are primarily interested in Treos (rumor has it that's where the site's name comes from)". And like Willie Sutton said, you rob banks "because that's where the money is" .


    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    Thank you for making my point for me.
    Actually, I was asking you a question.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    The Foleo is entering what was previously a vertical market niche: instant-on SSDs. Psion and HP had some good products in that category, but failed due to the high cost of flash memory at the time, and less-than-familiar form factors (e.g. diminutive keyboards). Since I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at with "the syncing concept" being the lynchpin to the Foleo's success, I'll let you expand on that.
    The syncing concept was discussed here:

    http://discussion.treocentral.com/sh...d.php?t=146331



    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    Look at how many attempts have been made on this thread and others to find a laptop with the same size as the Foleo at a comparable price. Apparently, manufacturers of small laptops haven't understood that the market is commoditized.
    Laptops are commiditized. Up until recently, small laptops have been a niche market that allowed manufacturers to maximize profits. The Asus Eee PC appears to have changed the rules for everyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    Ask any TX owners what they like about the TX and why they were willing to drop $2200 for it. Invariably, owners will mention the size, not the FireWire port or the number of apps they can run on it. Frankly, I've never seen a TX owner run anything than Word, Excel, Outlook, IE and (I'll concede) Quickbooks Pro. I've often considered buying a TX myself, just for it's size, but always stopped short due to the price. On the other hand, I haven't lodged any complaints about Sony's pricing on forums. I'm just not Sony's target market for it.
    If you say, "I've often considered buying a TX myself, just for it's size, but always stopped short due to the price." then many would argue that you are in fact a member of "Sony's target market for it". They just need to either adjust the price or do something else to make you willing to pull the trigger.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    You're mis-taken. On the contrary, I do like the iPhone. I happen to think it's one hell of a feature phone. But it doesn't fit my needs: DUN, A2DP, tactile keyboard, categorized tasks lists, memos, system-level API access, etc. I don't characterize that as even relatively complete, but I understand that many other customers have different itches to scratch, and that's OK. You'll notice that I never said the iPhone was a bad product; just that it's more sizzle than steak. I also happen to think that Steve Jobs is a genius, a man who can not only sell ice cubes in the Arctic, but can bring some great products to market. I've owned an Apple II+, Mac SE, a Newton 110 (granted, not a Steve Jobs brainchild), a first-gen iBook, G4 Powerbook and 3 iPods, so this iHatred you posit is specious at best.
    So you have iLove for His Steveness. Good answer. The Men In Black (Turtlenecks) won't have to pay a visit to the Gameboy70 household tonight afterall.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    Prepend your product names with an "i"
    Append your product names with "Phone"
    Have your product presented by Steve Jobs
    Not quite. That only accounts for 95% of the reason why Apple is more successful then Palm. My previous post summarized the remaining 5% of why Apple continues to trump Palm.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    I used Qualcomm, Handspring, Samsung and Sony Palm OS devices, but I used Palm OS by choice, not by some company fiat. The Palm platform fit my needs more the CE/PPC/WM devices, since I'm not a fan of menu-driven navigation on handhelds.
    I believe you missed the point. If you like PalmOS then you're stuck taking whatever devices that Palm is currently willing to offer you. There currently are no significant PalmOS options other than Palm these days. And (as seems to be the message from Palm to its traditional PDA fans) if you don't like it, don't let the door hit you on the way out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    It's a different standard of expectation. Stationery stores have mostly gone out of business because people are used to the faster response time of email over letters and postcards. People are currently accustomed to 3-minute boot times and other latencies associated with desktop operating systems. I think that will change, even if the Foleo itself fails.
    Unfortunately for Palm, as more and more Windows laptops start shipping with flash memory instead of traditional hard drives there will be less of a penalty for leaving Windows in "suspend" mode, lessening the importance of "instant-on".


    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    Don't take my word for it. Try the Foleo for a week and see what going back to a laptop is like. For a cheaper alternative, try picking up a Jornada 720 on eBay for under $100. Or just look up the reviews on Amazon and notice that the first thing virtually everyone mentions is instant-on -- and these are users, not HP muckety-mucks.

    I have used several instant-on pseudo-laptops over the years and have found that I would rather have access to full-sized and function traditional Windows applications rather than saving a minute or two every day not having to wait as long for applications to become available. Instant-on maybe a big deal for you, however, I hope you can appreciate that for many individuals who have long since adapted to waiting for Windows to boot up, instant-on might not be that that big of a deal.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    Or just imagine hitting the calendar button on your Treo and waiting a couple of minutes for the OS to boot.
    What do you think I'm doing now every time I open up the Web application on my Treo 700p?


    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    I promise not to say things like "Finally, the 'Hawk' has taken flight… right into a power line" or "Oh Look! I Get To Bash Palm And Nokia At The Same Time! It’s Two Two Two Hits In One!"
    Confucius say:

    "Live by the Palm fanboy, die by the Palm fanboy."
    "Hell hath no fury like a fanboy scorned"



    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    And by the magic of circular logic, anyone who denies this conspiracy is, by definition, not in the know. I'm equally ignorant in the U.S. Air Force's role in the Roswell Incident.
    Conspiracy theory? No - merely how money is made in the REAL world. Sorry to burst your bubble, but the stock market is about manipulation, insider trading and deception. And one more thing... the is no Santa Claus. Sorry.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    Or have higher journalistic standards.
    Whatever you want to believe.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    I have a Treo, but I also have Gmail. I prefer tabbed browsing, but have used IE6 and Blazer unscathed. I've even used DTG to write an send articles for which I've been paid. I had my Gateway laptop stolen 6 years ago, and even without a CF card on board, it tooks months to resolve the resulting identity theft issues.
    I despise Web-based email, but to each his own. I still use Internet Explorer 6, but typically have five or more instances of the browser open at any given time. Anyone who uses Blazer for anything other than short, simple Internet sessions is likely a closet masochistic. If your laptop was reasonably secured, it would take a determined thief to expose your personal information. On the other hand, Palm's decision to store the bulk of a user's data on the completely unsecured CompactFlash card means that all of that data is easily accessible to anyone with a $10 card reader, a nickel to unscrew the Foleo's CompactFlash storage slot and a few minutes to download all of your precious data. And the Foleo is supposed to be a business-centric device? Get serious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    As much as I'm entertained by your "showstopper" scenarios, I only have so much time to humor them.
    I don't think that many businesses would find a complete lack of data security to be very "entertaining".

    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    From "no security" to "no Outlook compatibility"! I'm pretty tired, so you'll have to make up your own punchline.
    Everything listed is a valid issue that Palm will need to address if they wish to seriously market the Foleo to a group of customers other than a tiny niche of Linux-loving, Treo-owning, wealthy Palm fanatics that are seeking a small laptop and are willing to overlook the Foleo's many current deficiencies. Unfortunately for Palm, the "punchline" appears to be that yet again, the company may have taken an excellent basic idea and just missed the mark by failing to sweat the details, leaving the door wide open for the competition. I don't find Palm failing to execute on an otherwise clever package to be all that funny.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    Limited hands-on experience. Limited authority. Limited objectivity.
    I don't pretend to have ever used a Foleo, however, those who have have reported these issues. If you prefer to discount these reports, so be it. Once the Foleo is "out in the wild" in a week or two hopefully you'll have all of the "hands-on experience... authority... and objectivity" that you can handle. No doubt you'll find some way to dismiss any reviews finding fault with the Foleo as being irrelevant to what you perceive to be its raison d'être. I guess this all boils down to the fact that you feel that the Foleo provides adequate value for your money, while others expect more. This is probably an issue on which we will have to "agree to disagree" since - by definition - "value" is a highly subjective concept.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    I'm no more a soothsayer than anyone else. I'm certainly not saying that the Foleo's success is a foregone conclusion. Making it a success is Palm's responsibility, not mine. I've only argued that there's a market for it.
    I don't believe the question is whether or not "there is a market for it", but rather how large that market may be. If I invented a plutonium-powered back scratcher and the king of Saudi Arabia ordered one then technically I could also claim "there's a market for it". The more important question would be how viable that market might be.



    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    Nothing new here. I'll let it rest.
    Actually, the financial viability of the Foleo is the most important factor that will determine whether or not we will ever see a Foleo 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    If they manufactured 10,000 and sold 10,000, it would be a success. Investors would be convinced to increase production to match increased projections, initiating an upward cycle. If they project 50,000, manufacture 70,000 and sell 10,000, that would be a serious problem. There's no way to make an informed opinion, since we lack all three data (projections, production runs and end-of-year sales). Analysis without data doesn't even merit the label of guesswork.
    No. The Foleo will be a success if Palm is able to make a reasonable amount of profit selling the device. It will be a failure if Palm doesn't make a reasonable amount of profit selling the device. This isn't "analysis" or "guesswork". This is the cold, hard reality of business.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    I doubt we'd hear about it unless the launch intersects with an SEC filing. Most companies don't volunteer initial sales in such short windows, unlike Hollywood movies. The big exception, of course, was the iPhone, which, like a Hollywood movie, is an entertainment product.
    I doubt that Palm will get into specifics re: the number of Foleos sold per quarter. They will likely hide it within the PDA sales in order to avoid pressure or potential embarrassment if the Foleo proves unpopular.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    And over twice the sales needed for sustainable profitability ("over" due to lower margins). I'll probably get the 10" model for hacking, though.
    Unless you know exactly how much profit is built into the sale of each Asus Eee PC and Palm Foleo (including rebates) I would question the veracity of your comment about numbers of sales needed for sustainable profitability. You also seem to have overlooked the minor detail that total profits = profits per unit x total number of units sold. If Asus makes $100 profit per Eee PC and sells 2 million of them per quarter while Palm makes $300 profit per Foleo but sells only 5000 of them per quarter, which company is more likely to have acceptable "sustainable profitability"? I wonder if they teach the answer to questions like that in Economics 101?


    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    More conjecture insinuated as fact. We'll know soon enough.
    "conjecture insinuated as fact"? Goodness gracious! No, I merely stated my opinion that given the Foleo's current price/feature ratio I believe that a large number of potential customers will decide that they are unable to afford paying for a device with several inherent limitations.
  6.    #86  
    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    It all comes down to how much responsibility people are willing to take for their own emotional well-being. My identity and self-esteem aren't tied to Palm's vision, so I don't "seemingly" get upset when our visions diverge. I certainly don't buy devices to express my insight into the future or to validate a company's. A product either does what I need, right now, or it's not a candidate for purchase.
    That's all very "well-adjusted" of you to say that, but many - perhaps most - of the consumer goods sold in this country sell largely due to how effectively they appeal to the emotional side of the purchasing decision. One year ago I purchased a Treo 700p even though I could have purchased any other phone on the market. Factors influencing that decision included my long history of familiarity with PalmOS, my hope of cobbling together an effective mobile email solution and in some small measure a desire to support Palm ("the little guy") in its effort to compete against the Goliaths of the cell phone world. After finding out that Palm had knowingly released a buggy, poorly-made smartphone and then seeing Palm repeatedly delay addressing the Treo 700p's numerous issues until the warranty had expired for many users, the non-cyborg part of me got "upset" . Forgive me, Lieutenant Commander Data.
  7. Gerorne's Avatar
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    #87  
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Chupacabra View Post
    No. The Foleo will be a success if Palm is able to make a reasonable amount of profit selling the device. It will be a failure if Palm doesn't make a reasonable amount of profit selling the device. This isn't "analysis" or "guesswork". This is the cold, hard reality of business.
    I'm gonna go with Gameboy70 on this. A device does not necessarily have to make a profit to be a success. It really does depend on what the company's target is.

    Take Microsoft and the Xbox for instance. They weren't expecting to make a profit on the first device. What they were hoping to do was start to establish their presence in the video game market, attract third party developers, and get a toe hold into various markets, with a different percentage of penetration as a target for those different markets (US, Europe, Japan, etc.)

    I'm not sure about this, but I believe I even read that they weren't expecting to make a profit as a whole as with the Xbox 360. The goal was to take that foothold and expand their presence in market even more, and it isn't until the third generation of Xbox that the games division (or whatever it's called) is supposed to get in the black.

    Palm may actually be expecting to make a loss on this, but make enough of a presence in what they are hoping is a new market, and just want to make enough money back to continue development of Foleo 2.0. I don't know if that's true, and certainly Palm doesn't have the money to take a loss like Microsoft does, but success in their eyes could be very different than selling hundreds of warehouses full of foleos.

    Their minimum goal to consider it a success is just something that we don't know.
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  8. #88  
    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    When negative emotional resposes metastasize into outright hostility, it's time to leave go offline and take a walk, or see a therapist.
    Post this in the "10 things that suck about the iPhone" thread.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  9. #89  
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Chupacabra View Post
    I hope you will tolerate those of us who - unlike you - prefer to ruminate on issues.
    Ruminate away. Whatever gets you through the night.

    Sounds like you are having difficulty understanding the emotional attachment people have towards inanimate objects.
    So I've said.

    I suppose you would probably look at a Shelby Mustang and think, "Adequate transportation, but less economical than taking the bus." Perhaps someday you'll understand what all the fuss is about, Lieutenant Commander Data/Gameboy70.
    You get a gold star for creative writing today.

    I think you're being quite generous. Palm should have the basics ready by now. I'm sure they appreciate that you're so willing to buy something that should have been free, though.
    Health care should be free, yet I don't whine about my HMO. In a free market, I always have the option of going fee-for-service.

    I've been quite generous in listening to you reiterate that the Foleo doesn't meet your particular idea of basics. The reasonable inference to draw from this is that you're not getting one.

    $800-$900 to get a crippled laptop with the advantage of instant-on versus a few hundred dollars more to get a Windows laptop with Windows applications, exponentially more memory, etc. And last time I checked there were a few more freeware apps available for Windows than for the Foleo's Palm Linux.
    I have a laptop. I have those freeware apps. I have all that computational horsepower. I do need a laptop from time to time, and nowhere have I argued otherwise.

    I drive a car, not an SUV. There are times when I would prefer having the extra payload capacity of an SUV, but a typical day for me isn't a shopping spree at Ikea or an offroad romp on the Rockies. So for me, SUVs just represent extra overhead as a tool for daily use, too much bulk.

    For me, writing, email and web research are my core areas of focus. I'm not the person who can't stand being unable to watch YouTube clips or DVDs that I could easily watch at home. I don't need to carry a tool with me that addresses every last contingency if it becomes a physical burden.

    You choose to spend 80% of your time emphasizing the 20% of computing needs that are the proper domain of a laptop, concluding that the Foleo's value is neglible. My educated guess (based on the Psion) is that I can spend 80% of my computing time using the Foleo, and the 20% on the laptop. If the proportion of actual Foleo use cases drops much below 80%, then I would call it a failed experiment, and pony up for the Sony.

    Palm's job is to sell as many devices for the maximum profits possible. Their product stratification experts are the ones that have to decide if the respondents holding out for a $199, $299, $399 or $499 Foleo will get invitations to the Foleo party. Initial pricing has already been decided by Palm (using patented Magic 8 Ball marketing technology). Palm will have to adjust pricing as they receive feedback from the public. The definitive feedback revolves around actual sales figures. I hope you'll permit people here to continue stating the maximum price they are willing to pay for a Foleo in the meantime.
    By all means, state your maximum price. There's value in introspection, so stating that you're only willing to pay $299 for a $499 product may, after seeing what your typed in black and white, make you suddenly conscious of the fact that you're about $200 short of being interested -- and then you can channel your time and money into something that actually matters to you. Given my bias against wasting time, I'd rather dispense with the tortured deliberation, look at the product's cost/benefit to me (without looking over my shoulder to see if others agree), and decide whether or not to buy it. Much more effecient than waiting until late Spring for a possible price drop to vindicate a fragile ego.

    Yes, somehow you do misunderstand - even though the "purpose of the poll" is stated clearly at the start of the thread and in the thread title. Take a look for yourself.
    Since the thread title is about as logical as asking "At what temperature would you like water to boil?", I chose to editorialize. IMO, YMMV, my $.02, etc.

    In order to fully use a Foleo, a customer will need to own a Treo (and presumably be interested in Treos). As someone once said: "TreoCentral members are primarily interested in Treos (rumor has it that's where the site's name comes from)". And like Willie Sutton said, you rob banks "because that's where the money is".
    When the iPod was first released, a customer needed a Mac. Windows was not an option. I actually knew two people in early 2002 who bought iMacs just to use an iPod. Conversely, many Mac users have no interest in iPods, even to this day.

    Actually, I was asking you a question.
    Sorry, I thought it was rhetorical. But the answer is yes, up to a point. The polling questions were loaded rather loaded -- things like "Would you like the ability to listen to music while jogging?" The value proposition of some products isn't self-evident, and even presentations have their limits. Some products and services just need to be seen in the fabric of real life for their usefulness to become obvious. When email first became popular, many holdouts would say, "Why wouldn't I just call you?" They weren't stupid. They just didn't have an image of how email would thread into their lifestyle. I think the reaction, "Why wouldn't I just use a laptop?" is a similar phenomenon.

    The syncing concept was discussed here:

    http://discussion.treocentral.com/sh...d.php?t=146331
    Sorry, I'm too earthbound to see the Foleo or its implications as visionary. Despite the references that follow, I have no interest in accessorizing my way into a Star Trek utopia -- unless it results in a close encounter with 7-of-9.

    Laptops are commiditized. Up until recently, small laptops have been a niche market that allowed manufacturers to maximize profits. The Asus Eee PC appears to have changed the rules for everyone.
    I'm not as confident, for reasons I'll cite later.

    If you say, "I've often considered buying a TX myself, just for it's size, but always stopped short due to the price." then many would argue that you are in fact a member of "Sony's target market for it". They just need to either adjust the price or do something else to make you willing to pull the trigger.
    Those who would argue that I am in Sony's target market for the TX are free to buy me one. Otherwise their arguments are of no value.

    Not quite. That only accounts for 95% of the reason why Apple is more successful then Palm. My previous post summarized the remaining 5% of why Apple continues to trump Palm.
    I wasn't aware that the two were competitors.

    I believe you missed the point. If you like PalmOS then you're stuck taking whatever devices that Palm is currently willing to offer you. There currently are no significant PalmOS options other than Palm these days. And (as seems to be the message from Palm to its traditional PDA fans) if you don't like it, don't let the door hit you on the way out.
    I can't get the pickup truck I want from Ferrari. I'm stuck with whatever the company has to offer. Oh, the arrogance!

    Unfortunately for Palm, as more and more Windows laptops start shipping with flash memory instead of traditional hard drives there will be less of a penalty for leaving Windows in "suspend" mode, lessening the importance of "instant-on".
    I can only consult my intution on this one, since I've never used a solid state Windows laptop. I suspect the cost of throwing enough flash memory at Windows desktop OS in a small enough form factor will wind up being another Origami debacle. On the other hand, if Microsoft is smart, they'll take the Jornada 720 concept of using their mobile OS, but this time in a full-size form factor.

    In my experience, standby mode is only used right before giving a PowerPoint presentation or when Starbucks customers need to go to the restroom. It's a marginal use case, primarily because the OS has to boot before it can be suspended. Leave the power off for too long and the OS goes into hibernate, which isn't meaningfully faster to recover from than initiating a fresh boot cycle. Mac users are a notable exception.

    I have used several instant-on pseudo-laptops over the years and have found that I would rather have access to full-sized and function traditional Windows applications rather than saving a minute or two every day not having to wait as long for applications to become available. Instant-on maybe a big deal for you, however, I hope you can appreciate that for many individuals who have long since adapted to waiting for Windows to boot up, instant-on might not be that that big of a deal.
    With no major instant-on product currently on the market, it would be surprising if any segment of the population hadn't long since accustomed itself to protracted boots, just like they were accustomed to snail mail right through the early nineties. As more people got email accounts, their tolerance of 24+ hour information floats diminished. Naturally, when you need a CPU-intensive application, you're going to pull out the laptop and deal with the boot. That's OK.

    What do you think I'm doing now every time I open up the Web application on my Treo 700p?
    Adding network latency to zero boot time, i.e. waiting 4 minutes instead of 2 minutes. Not trivial, in my opinion.

    Confucius say:

    "Live by the Palm fanboy, die by the Palm fanboy."
    "Hell hath no fury like a fanboy scorned"
    Chupacabra say:
    Let's leave crude ad hominem attacks out of this thread please.
    Conspiracy theory? No - merely how money is made in the REAL world. Sorry to burst your bubble, but the stock market is about manipulation, insider trading and deception. And one more thing... the is no Santa Claus. Sorry.
    You're quite the cosmopolitan. Evidently I'm just not in the know.

    I despise Web-based email, but to each his own. I still use Internet Explorer 6, but typically have five or more instances of the browser open at any given time. Anyone who uses Blazer for anything other than short, simple Internet sessions is likely a closet masochistic.
    That pretty much describe my usage: short, simple internet sessions, confined to mobile-optimized sites. I only use IE6 when FF, for whatever reason, is not an option.

    If your laptop was reasonably secured, it would take a determined thief to expose your personal information. On the other hand, Palm's decision to store the bulk of a user's data on the completely unsecured CompactFlash card means that all of that data is easily accessible to anyone with a $10 card reader, a nickel to unscrew the Foleo's CompactFlash storage slot and a few minutes to download all of your precious data. And the Foleo is supposed to be a business-centric device? Get serious.
    I take full responsibility for not securing my Gateway. As far as the Foleo, my understanding is that the default user storage is in non-volatile RAM, which is securable with password protection and bluetooth key proximity. Writing sensitive data to the CF card without something like TealSafe installed would by like moving your Treo's Contacts database to the SD card. Also, having a Unix filesystem, you can set the read-write permissions on any files you choose. You could designate root-only access only, reinforced by BT proximity. A thief would be able to erase the card by reformatting it, but cracking the security would take some sophistication. Not impossible, but probably beyond the scope of the average thief's skill set.

    Everything listed is a valid issue that Palm will need to address if they wish to seriously market the Foleo to a group of customers other than a tiny niche of Linux-loving, Treo-owning, wealthy Palm fanatics . . .
    Let's leave crude ad hominem attacks out of this thread please.
    . . . that are seeking a small laptop and are willing to overlook the Foleo's many current deficiencies. Unfortunately for Palm, the "punchline" appears to be that yet again, the company may have taken an excellent basic idea and just missed the mark by failing to sweat the details, leaving the door wide open for the competition. I don't find Palm failing to execute on an otherwise clever package to be all that funny.
    Obviously, you don't. Come to think of it, I'm getting pretty bored myself, so I'll probably move on to more productive endeavors after wrapping up this post.

    I don't pretend to have ever used a Foleo, however, those who have have reported these issues. If you prefer to discount these reports, so be it. Once the Foleo is "out in the wild" in a week or two hopefully you'll have all of the "hands-on experience... authority... and objectivity" that you can handle. No doubt you'll find some way to dismiss any reviews finding fault with the Foleo as being irrelevant to what you perceive to be its raison d'être.
    Hmm, a lot of angst over a gadget. I distinguish between acknowledging faults and "getting off" on them. I can only say that the Foleo lacks tabbed browsing, a PIM, OBEX file transfer, etc. so many times. I'm aware of PTG's limitations, so if I relied on PowerPoint, I'd probably hold off on getting a Foleo. If YouTube was a priority, I'd stick with a laptop.

    I guess this all boils down to the fact that you feel that the Foleo provides adequate value for your money, while others expect more. This is probably an issue on which we will have to "agree to disagree" since - by definition - "value" is a highly subjective concept.
    It boils down to the fact that I'll be getting a Foleo, evaluating how well it integrates into my life, and returning/selling it if the experiment fails. I'm pretty zen about the whole issue. It's just a tool, not a prosthetic for my ego, not the Next Big Thing, not the dark horse I'm betting the farm on. If the Foleo fails, and takes Palm down with it, the world will still turn.

    I don't believe the question is whether or not "there is a market for it", but rather how large that market may be. If I invented a plutonium-powered back scratcher and the king of Saudi Arabia ordered one then technically I could also claim "there's a market for it". The more important question would be how viable that market might be.
    By "a market," I actually meant "a viable market," but I certainly wouldn't waste time trying to codify viability in the absence of data.


    Actually, the financial viability of the Foleo is the most important factor that will determine whether or not we will ever see a Foleo 2.
    Absolutely true.


    No. The Foleo will be a success if Palm is able to make a reasonable amount of profit selling the device. It will be a failure if Palm doesn't make a reasonable amount of profit selling the device. This isn't "analysis" or "guesswork". This is the cold, hard reality of business.
    The only way to know what kind of profit they're making is to know their margins and their total inventory. I would guess that their margins are high and their inventories are low, relative to more established products.


    I doubt that Palm will get into specifics re: the number of Foleos sold per quarter. They will likely hide it within the PDA sales in order to avoid pressure or potential embarrassment if the Foleo proves unpopular.
    I'm not sure Sarbanes-Oxley makes provisions for that kind of accounting. But you're the expert on Wall Street.


    Unless you know exactly how much profit is built into the sale of each Asus Eee PC and Palm Foleo (including rebates) I would question the veracity of your comment about numbers of sales needed for sustainable profitability. You also seem to have overlooked the minor detail that total profits = profits per unit x total number of units sold. If Asus makes $100 profit per Eee PC and sells 2 million of them per quarter while Palm makes $300 profit per Foleo but sells only 5000 of them per quarter, which company is more likely to have acceptable "sustainable profitability"? I wonder if they teach the answer to questions like that in Economics 101?
    I consciously avoided discussing the total of units sold precisely because I have absolutely no idea how many either comany has to sell. And while I haven't followed the specifics of computer manufacturing in years, my understanding is that only Apple and Sony get better than 20% margins, largely due to having their own retail outlets (like Palm). No one gets 50% margins on hardware, especially on a $200 sale. If Asus were simply installing an off-the-shelf Linux on the Eee, I'd expect their margins to be around 12%. Since Asus is probably selling the Eee though the likes of NewEgg, and since they're customizing Linux for speed, I would guess their margins to be under 10%. And there's no way the Eee's going to outsell the Foleo by a factor of 400 like you've stated. If price and sales were directly reciprocal, the Eee would outsell the Foleo by a factor of 3.

    If they were directly reciprocal -- i.e. if they comprised an inverse linear function. But I don't think that's necessarily true. Let's say a kid with a lemonade stand cuts his price from $.10 to $.05. Does it follow that his sales will double, given the motivations that drive adults to patronize young entrepreneurs? If I run a hotel marketed to the affluent, does it follow that lowering the price of a $10,000-a-night room to $8,000 will increase reservations rather than raising the price to $12,000, given the vanity of the average target in this market? I suspect the Foleo and the Eee will sell more or less evenly, for a variety of factors beyond price.
  10. #90  
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Chupacabra View Post
    One year ago I purchased a Treo 700p even though I could have purchased any other phone on the market. Factors influencing that decision included my long history of familiarity with PalmOS, my hope of cobbling together an effective mobile email solution and in some small measure a desire to support Palm ("the little guy") in its effort to compete against the Goliaths of the cell phone world. After finding out that Palm had knowingly released a buggy, poorly-made smartphone and then seeing Palm repeatedly delay addressing the Treo 700p's numerous issues until the warranty had expired for many users, the non-cyborg part of me got "upset" . Forgive me, Lieutenant Commander Data.
    One year ago I purchased a Treo 700p and returned it two weeks later, not being able to live with the particular set of bugs on board, especially the delay in switching between applications. I guessed -- all too correctly, unfortunately -- that a firmware update would be long in coming, and I was unwilling to be a beta tester for Palm when my 650 worked just fine. So I to responsibility for what I could do -- return the source my frustration -- rather that sit around waiting for Palm to step up to the plate.

    To paraphrase Mr. Spock (as a TOS rather than TNG fan), "Really Chupacabra, you must learn to govern your passions. They will be your undoing."
  11. #91  
    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    To paraphrase Mr. Spock (as a TOS rather than TNG fan), "Really Chupacabra, you must learn to govern your passions. They will be your undoing."
    Well Stated!!!!
  12. #92  
    I would add, as I am a TOS fan myself:

    "In every revolution, there is one man with a vision."

    IMO, the foleo is going to come into its own as users learn its and the GNU Linux community rallies behind it.

    It just amazes me that a person who is obvously very opposed to the Foleo, would spend to much time writing such lengthy posts about it on a forum that advocates the device. I think just about everyone who frequents this list knows that Chupa thinks the Foleo is overpriced and he'd much rather have a regular laptop. Why do you have to continually restate this in thread after thread and post after post?

    TKOS
  13. #93  
    Maybe because it's a DISCUSSION forum, not an advocate forum! He made some excellent points in this thread. So did Gameboy.

    I have to agree with Chupa for the most part however, due to the first edition Foleo being less than fully featured unless you add lots of third party software. Sounds too much like what people have already done with the Treo.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  14. #94  
    Just to answer the thread's original question, I'd pay 40 cents for the foleo - AFTER TAX.

    That's the true value it to me. No kidding.
  15.    #95  
    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    One year ago I purchased a Treo 700p and returned it two weeks later, not being able to live with the particular set of bugs on board, especially the delay in switching between applications. I guessed -- all too correctly, unfortunately -- that a firmware update would be long in coming, and I was unwilling to be a beta tester for Palm when my 650 worked just fine. So I to responsibility for what I could do -- return the source my frustration -- rather that sit around waiting for Palm to step up to the plate.

    To paraphrase Mr. Spock (as a TOS rather than TNG fan), "Really Chupacabra, you must learn to govern your passions. They will be your undoing."

    Well, it appears that you made the correct decision. Congratulations. In retrospect, I would have been better off returning the Treo 700p as soon as I got it and saw how many bugs were present in the device. As usual though, I decided to give Palm of the benefit of the doubt and waited to see if they would issue a bug fix for the phone. Eventually, they issued a partial bug fix, but the problem was that it was not a software fix but rather a hardware fix called the Treo 755p. Sprint actually offered me a free exchange of my Treo 700p for the 755p, but so far I've turned it down because the switch would result in losing standard SD cards, losing accessories and there are some reports of software that worked on the Treo 700p not working on the Treo 755p.

    After my experience with the Treo 700p I had vowed to never again be an unpaid beta tester for Palm, yet here I am considering purchasing Palm's latest beta device, the Foleo. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.
  16. #96  
    [QUOTE=The_Chupacabra;1322375]Fair enough. I hope you will tolerate those of us who - unlike you - prefer to ruminate on issues.

    Chupacabra, your posts to this tread are as unwelcome here as they are over at palminfocentral. Why don't you just go crawl back into what ever hole you clawed your way out of.

    You do nothing but waste everyones time.
  17.    #97  
    Quote Originally Posted by TheKingOfSting View Post
    I would add, as I am a TOS fan myself:

    "In every revolution, there is one man with a vision."

    IMO, the foleo is going to come into its own as users learn its and the GNU Linux community rallies behind it.

    It just amazes me that a person who is obvously very opposed to the Foleo, would spend to much time writing such lengthy posts about it on a forum that advocates the device. I think just about everyone who frequents this list knows that Chupa thinks the Foleo is overpriced and he'd much rather have a regular laptop. Why do you have to continually restate this in thread after thread and post after post?

    TKOS

    If you truly believe that I am "obviously very opposed to the Foleo" then you have not been reading my posts here. I am actually quite intrigued by the whole idea of the Foleo and I'm looking forward to the opportunity to see one in person. I'm especially interested in seeing the whole Foleo concept fully realized, with the ability to sync wirelessly between Treo, Foleo and online database. I usually give Palm the benefit of the doubt, so I refuse to believe that the Foleo is nothing more than a small Linux-based laptop.

    I was unaware that this was "a forum that advocates the device". It was my impression that this was a place that individuals interested in the Foleo could discuss their thoughts about the device and other issues related to the Foleo. If this site is merely yet another mindless fanboy cheerleading site then I apologize if my posts here have offended the Foleo fanboys.
  18. #98  
    Quote Originally Posted by equalizer View Post
    Chupacabra, your posts to this tread are as unwelcome here as they are over at palminfocentral. Why don't you just go crawl back into what ever hole you clawed your way out of.

    You do nothing but waste everyones time.
    I don't feel my time was wasted. He made some good points.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  19.    #99  
    [QUOTE=equalizer;1324141]
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Chupacabra View Post
    Fair enough. I hope you will tolerate those of us who - unlike you - prefer to ruminate on issues.

    Chupacabra, your posts to this tread are as unwelcome here as they are over at palminfocentral. Why don't you just go crawl back into what ever hole you clawed your way out of.

    You do nothing but waste everyones time.

    Amazing. Why would "gzartman" create an entirely new user profile at Treocentral today simply to flame me? Could it be that he is afraid that his cowardly behavior will result in him getting banned?

    If you're going to post insults here, gzartman at least have the courage to post them under your regular user profile. It's cowards like you that need to "just go crawl back into what ever hole you clawed your way out of".
  20. #100  
    Quote Originally Posted by The Phone Diva View Post
    I don't feel my time was wasted. He made some good points.
    You are very likely in a minority group.

    It is only his very last post that he has shown any support what so ever in this device. EVERY post this person has posted before now has been in some type of opposition to the Foleo and Palm.

    His desire is to cause conflict. He attacks those in favor of the device and Palm, Inc.

    What is the point on this? There is no point.

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