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  1. braj's Avatar
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    #101  
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Chupacabra View Post
    I will no longer be reading Palminfocenter. The editor, Ryan's actions in this matter appear to be downright sleazy.

    Yes, people who sign NDAs couldn't say, but maybe someone else could drop us a hint?
    What pictures anyway? Link?
  2.    #102  
    Quote Originally Posted by gzartman View Post
    As a person heavily involved in the GNU Linux community for over 10 years, I think I'd have quite alot to offer. For example, I plan on creating a Samba implementation for my foleo and will happily share it with the community.

    So, I havn't had my hands on the device... This will change in a few weeks.

    Pages of negative opinion about a device for which many of us here have interest in is of no value.

    Read the article on the front page of Treo Central, posted today, about the Foleo. I am not the only one who seems to get the point of this device. This article does a wonderful job of detailing the "point of the foleo."

    I am not going to waste my time responding to your last comment -- very immature.

    Greg
    It's sad to see that you appear to be taking constructive criticism of the Foleo so personally. Once again, I am suggesting you "enlighten" us all here by writing a few paragraphs on what you feel is the "point of the Foleo". I'm sure we would all be especially interested in hearing how you feel Palm's Linux laptop offering will be superior to (or even competitive with) anything else that will be available from numerous other traditional laptop manufacturers.

    If Palm had simply implemented even half of the more reasonable features suggested for the Foleo by the readers here at Treocentral then the device would have been not only a much more capable device, but also much more likely to cultivate a sustainable niche. As it stands, it is extremely difficult to envision any scenarios which would involve the Foleo becoming a sales success for Palm this year.

    Immature? No. I would suggest you read some of your previous posts for good illustration of that particular word. Take care.
  3.    #103  
    Quote Originally Posted by gzartman View Post
    And it still is. They are like any other form of media... You release something to them that people want to know about and they are going to publish it. If you didn't want it out there, then you should not have posted it.

    Send a picture of a high profile political figure doing something very inappropriate to any major newspaper.... wait a few hours and then see how far you get at asking them not to publish it...

    If Palm is upset about a few pictures, then the person to blame is whoever let your buddy monkey around with the Foleo like he did. Palminfocentral is only reporting what WE, the user base, wants to hear -- information about the Foleo. If the device is going to be deployed in the next few weeks, then it is already being manufactured. A few pictures of hardware specs isn't going to change anything.

    Greg
    Interesting perspective. So you apparently believe that the editor of Palminfocenter has the right to copy and post any personal photographs that previously have been made public, even when he has been advised that he does not have permission to do so. Amazing.

    It appears that lack of respect for others is a core element of your personality. Have a nice day.
  4. Gerorne's Avatar
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    #104  
    I agree that once the info was leaked... you can't really expect it to be contained... but Chupa's colleague owns the rights to that image if I'm not mistaken, and they should just honor the request to take it down, without waiting for him to go to a lawyer, which they know he most likely won't do.

    They'll still be reporting the info that people want to know... but they could say "Image removed at owner's request"... and people would still know, while at the same time would be respecting the use of the image according to the owner of the image.

    The analogy of sending a picture to a newspaper doesn't work, because by sending the image to them, that imply's that they have the right to use it. The image wasn't given to palminfocenter by Chupa's colleague, and because of the emails, he has in fact told them that they do NOT have the right to use it.
    Last edited by Gerorne; 07/27/2007 at 12:12 AM.
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  5.    #105  
    Quote Originally Posted by Gerorne View Post
    I agree that once the info was leaked... you can't really expect it to be contained... but Chupa's colleague owns the rights to that image if I'm not mistaken, and they should just honor the request to take it down, without waiting for him to go to a lawyer, which they know he most likely won't do.

    They'll still be reporting the info that people want to know... but they could say "Image removed at owner's request"... and people would still know, while at the same time would be respecting the use of the image according to the owner of the image.

    The analogy of sending a picture to a newspaper doesn't work, because by sending the image to them, that imply's that they have the right to use it. The image wasn't given to palminfocenter by Chupa's colleague, and because of the emails, he has in fact told them that they do NOT have the right to use it.
    Thank's for the support, Gerome. On Monday I actually received several more interesting photos that were not posted (and some more unpublished info) on the Foleo and after some persistent nagging of my colleague I received permission to post everything here. But after seeing what Palminfocenter has done, I've decided to not to go ahead with sharing the info.
  6. #106  
    I wanted to stay out of this, but here goes:

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Chupacabra View Post
    Thank's for the support, Gerome. On Monday I actually received several more interesting photos that were not posted (and some more unpublished info) on the Foleo and after some persistent nagging of my colleague I received permission to post everything here. But after seeing what Palminfocenter has done, I've decided to not to go ahead with sharing the info.
    IMHO only one person made a mistake. The person posting the picture. Simple.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Chupacabra View Post
    I will no longer be reading Palminfocenter. The editor, Ryan's actions in this matter appear to be downright sleazy.

    Yes, people who sign NDAs couldn't say, but maybe someone else could drop us a hint?
    Hmm ... so taking over a picture is not allowed, but asking someone to breach a legal agreement is OK with you ?

    Consistency is lost here ...
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  7. Gerorne's Avatar
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    #107  
    Quote Originally Posted by holvoetn View Post
    I wanted to stay out of this, but here goes:

    IMHO only one person made a mistake. The person posting the picture. Simple.

    Hmm ... so taking over a picture is not allowed, but asking someone to breach a legal agreement is OK with you ?

    Consistency is lost here ...
    I'd like to hear your reasoning on the issue if you do want to chime in.

    For myself... People are allowed to state their opinions and are allowed to change their minds. Chupa's colleague was excited to share his info with us, because, like so many of us, he was excited and he knew we'd appreciate the information. And I'm sure a lot of us were glad to see it.

    It wasn't until after the picture was posted that (I assume) he/they were contacted by Palm, and he decided he no longer wanted to share his image.

    The image is his to share as he pleases, and isn't property of anyone else. (Again, if I'm wrong with this assumption, someone please let me know.) Chupa's colleague doesn't own the information that was on the picture, but the picture itself, he has a right to display or not. And he changed his mind to display it.

    Plenty of people change their minds. I do it all the time. And I'm in fact hoping that plenty of people who at first dismissed the Foleo change their mind and decide it could be useful for them, and that they want one.

    It was very easy for anyone, including the people at palminfocenter, to think it was ok to share that image with everyone, because at first that's how it was presented, and they took it without his permission, possibly thinking it wasn't necessary.

    But after being contacted, they should honor the request of the person who owns that image. It isn't theirs. It's not their right.

    If Chupa's colleague actually sent them the image himself, I would see the whole situation completely differently.

    This isn't about mistakes. It may very well have been a mistake to have put it up in the first place. This is about who has what rights. If the picture is his property, and if it is his right to have it displayed or not, then his right is being violated.

    ----

    And I kind of think you've misinterpreted the last Chupa quote. He clearly says that people with NDA's couldn't talk about the beta test. The "someone else" he's implying (again, if I'm not mistaken), is bcombee, who has been giving us valuable bits of information these past weeks.
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  8. #108  
    I am not talking about rights on pictures here. I am indicating who made the mistake of putting it up in the first place.
    Besides, nowhere was indicated this picture was protected by any form of copyright hence it was free for all to use.

    Otherwise NOBODY would be able anymore to use ANY picture which is posted on the web because there would ALWAYS be some sort of owner.

    On that NDA thing, I knew who was being referred to. Also that person is tied by the hands and I am quite convinced the info which is being brought out is reviewed upfront (or at least is part of a list indicating : "CAN and CAN NOT TELL"). Unless I am mistaking ...
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  9. Gerorne's Avatar
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    #109  
    If we just see it differently, then we just see it differently.

    But if you want discuss it from the point of view why I see it as wrong, here is quote directly from Flickr's website, in which the image was originally shared from:

    In most parts of the world, including the U.S., Canada, EU countries, and Japan, you are automatically granted copyrights to your photos.
    That is certainly isn't definitive. I'm sure copyright law has all kinds of crazy exceptions as the quote itself implies. But looks like I'm on the right track.

    And you're taking it way too extreme. Yes, it looks like pretty much all images have some kind of owner, unless specifically stated that the image is free to use for all. But most people put up images because they want to share it, and don't really care if people use them, so there is that ambiguity.

    In this case, however, palminfocenter was specifically told that they weren't allowed to use it. There is no ambiguity in this case.
    Last edited by Gerorne; 07/27/2007 at 07:53 AM.
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  10. TxDot's Avatar
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    #110  
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Chupacabra View Post
    Thank's for the support, Gerome. On Monday I actually received several more interesting photos that were not posted (and some more unpublished info) on the Foleo and after some persistent nagging of my colleague I received permission to post everything here. But after seeing what Palminfocenter has done, I've decided to not to go ahead with sharing the info.
    Get a watermark program, add a watermark to indicate where the photos came from and then POST THEM for us to see. If PIC still wants to copy them at least people will know where they came from. But don't deprive us because PIC hasn't honored your request. Why punish the "good guys"?
    GSM Treo 600 > Unlocked GSM Treo 650 on T-Mobile - Attempting to use a BB Curve

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  11. #111  
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Chupacabra View Post
    I will no longer be reading Palminfocenter. The editor, Ryan's actions in this matter appear to be downright sleazy.
    This is Ryan from PalmInfocenter here. I feel I need to respond to the anonymous attacks and misunderstandings here.

    My actions in this Foleo article are nothing out of the ordinary. I found the Foleo picture on a public photo sharing website (Flickr) and used is as a source document in a rumor aarticle. I clearly lablel where the picture came from, link to the original photoset and also point out the information may not be entirely accurate.

    The Flickr photo had no restrictions on it and was posted under an anoymous account. There is no one whom I could ask or contact about usage.

    Furthermore, the anoymous account of The_Chupacabra here is one and the same with TVOR (The Voice of Reason and other anonymous accounts) on PalmInfocenter. This poster is a well known troll with a borderline dysfunctional ant-palm/anti-foleo agenda.

    It was TVOR/Chupacabra himself who sent me a news tip on PIC that originally alerted me to the photos. Since I posted to the photos directly and not his anti-foleo rants, he seems to now have a problem with this.

    I do not respond to anonymous requests to alter my own articles. If the true original owner of the photo does indeed contact me, I would honor thier request to remove a photo if they did not want it used.
  12. Gerorne's Avatar
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    #112  
    Quote Originally Posted by PalmInfocenter View Post
    I do not respond to anonymous requests to alter my own articles. If the true original owner of the photo does indeed contact me, I would honor thier request to remove a photo if they did not want it used.
    That's all I need to know. Thanks for the post.
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  13. BigTex's Avatar
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    #113  
    Furthermore, the anoymous account of The_Chupacabra here is one and the same with TVOR (The Voice of Reason and other anonymous accounts) on PalmInfocenter. This poster is a well known troll with a borderline dysfunctional ant-palm/anti-foleo agenda.

    It was TVOR/Chupacabra himself who sent me a news tip on PIC that originally alerted me to the photos. Since I posted to the photos directly and not his anti-foleo rants, he seems to now have a problem with this.
    The plot thickens. Slinky, Are you back?
    Last edited by BigTex; 07/27/2007 at 12:22 PM. Reason: typo
    Waiting for Palm Pre on AT&T then can replace my iPhone. Needs Doc To Go and Flash

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  14. #114  
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Chupacabra View Post
    It's sad to see that you appear to be taking constructive criticism of the Foleo so personally. Once again, I am suggesting you "enlighten" us all here by writing a few paragraphs on what you feel is the "point of the Foleo". I'm sure we would all be especially interested in hearing how you feel Palm's Linux laptop offering will be superior to (or even competitive with) anything else that will be available from numerous other traditional laptop manufacturers. .
    I already have, on several occasions. Most recently, I stated that I completely agreed with this article on TC:

    http://www.treocentral.com/content/Stories/1285-1.htm

    I completely agree with the authorís assessment of Foleo. After I've had my Foleo for a few weeks, I'll comment in more detail with respect to my opinion on the technical aspects of the device.

    In concept, I feel the Foleo is bang on for the business users. As an owner of a successful engineering firm, I could care less about watching utube, playing songs, or games. I spend 90% of my time at a computer using email, reading/editing MS Office documents, or surfing the net. The foleo does all of this and does it well. The best feature I see the Treo having is instant on. I can grab it, click a button and instantly Iím in that application. Even when my laptop has been hibernated, it takes some time to boot up and fire up MS Work.

    Personally, I plan on buying between half a dozen and ten of these devices for my company.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Chupacabra View Post

    If Palm had simply implemented even half of the more reasonable features suggested for the Foleo by the readers here at Treocentral then the device would have been not only a much more capable device, but also much more likely to cultivate a sustainable niche. As it stands, it is extremely difficult to envision any scenarios which would involve the Foleo becoming a sales success for Palm this year. .
    Many of the features suggested here are of no use to the business user. As previously stated, watching Utube and movies, listening to music, playing games, etc,etc are of no value to the business user. I am glad they are keeping this device as simple as possible. I already have a laptop that I can fire up and do all of this other stuff. I welcome a device that enhances the features that I like so much about my Treo, which is exactly what the Foleo does.

    Palm isnít targeting recreational users or home users with this device. The original Palm(Handspring) device was extremely minimalistic with respect to features, but what it did it did well. Everyone laughed at Palm then, but look where the PDA ended upÖ.
  15. #115  
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Chupacabra View Post
    Interesting perspective. So you apparently believe that the editor of Palminfocenter has the right to copy and post any personal photographs that previously have been made public, even when he has been advised that he does not have permission to do so. Amazing.

    It appears that lack of respect for others is a core element of your personality. Have a nice day.
    I think he is well within his rights to post the information he posted. The photo was posted on a public site with no copyright nor a request not to post.

    My wife is a News Anchor for a major CBS affilate. Last night I ran all of this by her and asked her what she thought about Palminfocentral using the photo. She said that she felt Palminfocentral is totally in the clear with what they did and should only pull the photo if they felt like pulling it. She went on to say that they (the CBS people) have attornies to deal with people like Mr. Chupa and his associate.

    Greg
  16. #116  
    Quote Originally Posted by PalmInfocenter View Post
    .

    Furthermore, the anoymous account of The_Chupacabra here is one and the same with TVOR (The Voice of Reason and other anonymous accounts) on PalmInfocenter. This poster is a well known troll with a borderline dysfunctional ant-palm/anti-foleo agenda.
    This explains alot....
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    #117  
    Quote Originally Posted by gzartman View Post
    This explains alot....
    I'm not disagreeing, but that argument could easily be made falsely. But the bottom line is I think PIC is within their rights. Ultimately it would be Palm that has some rightous indignation here, since they own what was photographed.
  18. Gerorne's Avatar
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    #118  
    I hope no one sees this as needlessly continuing the argument, but I'm enjoying this discussion.

    Palm certainly can be upset that the specs were leaked. The individual specs can't really convey the experience as a whole that you will get from the device.

    Take the current generation of video game consoles. The Nintendo Wii is extremely out performed when it comes to processing power and all that, but it did have some unique features that completely changed the experience of gaming, and is far out performing the other two consoles. (Other factors are involved of course, but main chunk of it.)

    But at the same time, no one ever had to sign anything saying by attending the Sneak Peek, we agree to not spread information about the specs.

    And it's a good thing we didn't have to do that. I'm not sure how much it would have changed the feel of the event, but I suspect it would have made a difference.

    Palm made a lot of effort to make the Sneak Peeks are enjoyable as they could, including not having us sign any NDAs precisely so we could go out and spread (what the hoped were) positive impressions of the device.

    The leaked specs are just an unfortunate side effect of putting together such great events.
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  19.    #119  
    Quote Originally Posted by holvoetn View Post
    I wanted to stay out of this, but here goes:



    IMHO only one person made a mistake. The person posting the picture. Simple.



    Hmm ... so taking over a picture is not allowed, but asking someone to breach a legal agreement is OK with you ?

    Consistency is lost here ...

    Unfortunately, you are somewhat confused about this. Palm did not indicate that photographing the Foleo or any of its screens was not permitted. No NDA were signed by any of the individuals attending the preview sessions (as would be expected given the fact that the device is expected to be released in a few weeks), so revealing any details about the specs at this point in time shouldn't matter one way or the other to Palm.

    The (personal) photographs taken by my colleague were copied and pasted to another website without permission and even when the owner of that website was notified that he did not have permission to post those photographs he did not remove them.

    My previous post clearly stated that anyone who has signed an NDA cannot provide any information publicly. I was suggesting to Palm's representatives that they consider "leaking" a little more information about upcoming devices in effort to generate some more "excitement" about the platform. Perhaps, you were unaware, but most of the so-called "leaks" of information hat we see on products actually originate from the marketing divisions of those companies. Leaking of blurry photographs, specs etc. are carefully-designed, standard methods that companies use in an effort to hype their products prior to introduction. The demo sessions that Palm held for the Foleo are merely another type of attempt to generate "buzz" about the product. My colleague provided readers here with a well-written, honest evaluation of the Foleo, complete with details that had previously been unknown to individuals outside of Palm. This was probably not the type of post that Palm had hoped to see from individuals who had attended the demo sessions, but I would rather see more of this type of honest discussion about the Foleo rather than the type of mindless fawning that typically occurs on fanboy sites.

    In a few weeks, anyone will be able to buy a Foleo and decide for themselves whether or not its features justify its price. Until that time, the hands-on experiences of knowledgeable computer users like my colleague, gameboy70 and wlmoore who had attended the demo sessions are some of the best evidence that we have to go on.

    The following thread is an excellent starting point for individuals interested in the Foleo. 1PTUser should be congratulated for the tremendous effort he put into creating and updating such a fact-filled resource:

    http://discussion.treocentral.com/sh...d.php?t=148525

    While I realize that this will never happen, it would be nice if people posting to online sites would not take constructive criticisms of hardware that they like as somehow being personal attacks. Rather than becoming defensive and attempting to squelch any perceived "negative" comments, it would be far more useful to engage in a dialogue suggesting either why those criticisms may be wrong or else offering up alternate solutions..

    Based on the information I have now received, Palm has a few more little "surprises" up its sleeve. The only hint that I'll give right now is that readers here should focus on the title of this thread while at the same time asking themselves whether or not it's possible to scale an application from the Treo to a Foleo.

    If Palm is able to reduce the price of the Foleo to $399 I now believe I would buy one on the first day that they are released.
    Last edited by The_Chupacabra; 07/28/2007 at 12:22 AM.
  20.    #120  
    Quote Originally Posted by Gerorne View Post
    I'd like to hear your reasoning on the issue if you do want to chime in.

    For myself... People are allowed to state their opinions and are allowed to change their minds. Chupa's colleague was excited to share his info with us, because, like so many of us, he was excited and he knew we'd appreciate the information. And I'm sure a lot of us were glad to see it.

    It wasn't until after the picture was posted that (I assume) he/they were contacted by Palm, and he decided he no longer wanted to share his image.

    The image is his to share as he pleases, and isn't property of anyone else. (Again, if I'm wrong with this assumption, someone please let me know.) Chupa's colleague doesn't own the information that was on the picture, but the picture itself, he has a right to display or not. And he changed his mind to display it.

    Plenty of people change their minds. I do it all the time. And I'm in fact hoping that plenty of people who at first dismissed the Foleo change their mind and decide it could be useful for them, and that they want one.

    It was very easy for anyone, including the people at palminfocenter, to think it was ok to share that image with everyone, because at first that's how it was presented, and they took it without his permission, possibly thinking it wasn't necessary.

    But after being contacted, they should honor the request of the person who owns that image. It isn't theirs. It's not their right.

    If Chupa's colleague actually sent them the image himself, I would see the whole situation completely differently.

    This isn't about mistakes. It may very well have been a mistake to have put it up in the first place. This is about who has what rights. If the picture is his property, and if it is his right to have it displayed or not, then his right is being violated.

    ----

    And I kind of think you've misinterpreted the last Chupa quote. He clearly says that people with NDA's couldn't talk about the beta test. The "someone else" he's implying (again, if I'm not mistaken), is bcombee, who has been giving us valuable bits of information these past weeks.

    Well said, Gerome. I'm glad at least one person reading here "gets it".

    By the way, Palm did not contact him, but an acquaintance at Palm had apparently requested that the photo be pulled. I disagree with pulling the photo, but it's not my photo. Of course, Palm could have made this a non-issue by simply spending an extra $20 to spec better parts and also by being more honest in letting everyone know how the Foleo fits into their long-term computing vision
    .

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