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  1. emajy's Avatar
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    #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Chupacabra View Post
    Besides the almost Lexus-like solid feeling of the Foleo a couple other things impressed me with the design that I forgot to mention earlier.

    First of all, the keyboard was well done, with quiet, nice-feeling, properly-sized keys and adequate stroke.

    Secondly, Palm made a wise decision going with a TrackPoint-like pointing stick instead of a touchpad. The pointing stick was set up with the perfect amount of sensitivity and allowed for very precise cursor movement. Palm should give the left and right mouse buttons more of a lip like IBM does to facilitate actuation, though. I forgot to ask whether or not the pointing stick tips are easily replaceable, if other styles of tips will be available and if the IBM TrackPoint tips can be used on the Foleo. Anyone here try popping off the tips and ending up breaking the demo Foleo?
    The keyboard shortcuts work very well. So i found the use of the mouse mostly un-necessary.
  2.    #42  
    The Palm Developer Sync-Up will be held at the convention center in San Francisco on Monday August 6, 1 day before the start of LinuxWorld 2007. At that time Palm will be releasing the Foleo SDK and I expect the Foleo will go on sale then as well. Historically, at these types of events manufacturers will sell hardware for half price to developers. Hmmmmm... a $300 Foleo suddenly sounds a LOT more palatable to me. I wonder if whipping up a "Hello World" PalmLinux app qualifies me for developer status?


    http://www.palmdevelopersyncup.com/
  3. #43  
    wow... now i wish i was a developer myself... $300! Jeeez!
  4. #44  
    I almost agree with all master Chupa said at this thread.

    Thanks to Chupa that already answer my several questions that haven't yet answered.

    My opinion:
    1. CPU 415.33 mhz should not be enough to powered foleo that have quite big screen, foleo should loaded with graphic chip to make it works better and can play movie, such Intel G2700, nvidia go, ATI Imagion chip.

    2. 128RAM really ridiculous, I don't know how big usual Linux application. But I think foleo should loaded with at least 1GB Ram.

    3. Browser, is it really can't do tapped browser? geez... it really not good, I really hope webBrowser on Palm can do at least as good as firefox without addon & plugin.

    4. Foleo should at least have security on both foleo itself and the CF as storage.

    5. Lacking of Mail on foleo really suck! I really hope can do pop3 mail and send/recive sms via phone on foleo. Typing long and many sms on phone quite tiring, I don't have Treo right now, I sold it, and hoping new born treo, now I just use SE K618i.

    6. With all hardware and software on foleo, I think it only worth no more then USD300.

    7. Bluetooth 1.2 really not good, I hope at least v2.0.


    And now the only question is:

    1. what type of phone that foleo currently can support. As mobile companion, foleo SHOULD BE can be sync with many many kind of phone, starting from standard phone to smartphone or pda phone both CDMA and GSM. If foleo failed to make foleo sync with many phone, then foleo surely shouldn't be called as mobile companion!

    2. What capacity of CF bundled with foleo, 1GB??? or 4GB or 8GB? I think Palm never give us a big capacity of storage eh?

    My Hope:
    1. I hope Linux Dev will support foleo by making software that can make foleo can send/receive sms via phone. and off course do pop mail.
    2. I hope foleo can emulate Palm software.
  5. #45  
    oh yes.... I forget one important thing.

    @chupa: do you know how big foleo's battery capacity? (mAH)

    I saw the pic, seems the battery quite big.
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Chupacabra View Post
    Besides the almost Lexus-like solid feeling of the Foleo a couple other things impressed me with the design that I forgot to mention earlier.

    First of all, the keyboard was well done, with quiet, nice-feeling, properly-sized keys and adequate stroke.

    Secondly, Palm made a wise decision going with a TrackPoint-like pointing stick instead of a touchpad. The pointing stick was set up with the perfect amount of sensitivity and allowed for very precise cursor movement. Palm should give the left and right mouse buttons more of a lip like IBM does to facilitate actuation, though. I forgot to ask whether or not the pointing stick tips are easily replaceable, if other styles of tips will be available and if the IBM TrackPoint tips can be used on the Foleo. Anyone here try popping off the tips and ending up breaking the demo Foleo?
    Uhmm. Sounds like from a product design side of things that they got it spot on. The keyboard you describe sounds almost exactly as the recently released Palm BT keyboard. That one was one of the best not named an MS keyboard that I've been on in years (and I have used a ton).

    I hate the pointy stick, but to hear that most of the UI is navigable via keyboard shortcuts is good.

    Evernote, yea! Quality note program there. I wonder if this means that they have gotten a suitable Palm OS/Windows Mobile client done as well. That would be pretty neat.

    I do wonder if the RAM reported is just user RAM, with possible 128-256MB for the OS (not programs). That would be better, but eh, still too few MB to play with. Granted, one doesn't need a Gig, but it would have been nice to see 1GB at least. Though thinking about it, makes that Gates comment of people not needning more than 'x'K of space kinda pan out if they pull it off.
    MMM | AntoineRJWright.com | BH | Jaiku

    Moved on to Symbian, but still will visit from time to time.
  7.    #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by bulls96 View Post
    wow... now i wish i was a developer myself... $300! Jeeez!


    Please note that I'm not saying Palm will definitely do this, only that that is commonly done. For $300 I think I'd be willing to get one mainly as a toy and a portable webbrowser that I could leave in the car and take to places where I wouldn't want to use an expensive laptop.
  8. wlmoore's Avatar
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    #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Chupacabra View Post
    Thanks, Antoine. I initially wasn't going to post the specs because I've read that Palm has been acting coy whenever people have asked for hard facts about the Foleo hardware. But in the end I decided THEY are the ones that decided to (under)spec the Foleo, so they should at least be willing to be upfront with their decisions. The Foleo is what it is. I'm actually surprised that I was the first person to post such a basic bit of information about the Foleo. All you other people that went to Foleo demos before me should be ashamed of yourselves! You call yourselves hardcore and you can't even figure out the Foleo's specs? SHAME!!! If Palm is embarassed about the Foleo's specs perhaps they should have made other design choices, don't you think?
    I discussed this with one of the Palm folks that night. In the end I deferred to them and didn't divulge here what little information I gleaned from the command line (I have no idea how you got that detailed screenshot...much respect due) as I agree with their argument that they have a right to control the flow of information. Deals can be won or lost based on information or mis-information being leaked. They took a risk bringing Foleos out in public of losing control of that info so there you go, but I opted not to take part.
  9.    #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by The Bard View Post
    I almost agree with all master Chupa said at this thread.

    Thanks to Chupa that already answer my several questions that haven't yet answered.

    My opinion:
    1. CPU 415.33 mhz should not be enough to powered foleo that have quite big screen, foleo should loaded with graphic chip to make it works better and can play movie, such Intel G2700, nvidia go, ATI Imagion chip.

    2. 128RAM really ridiculous, I don't know how big usual Linux application. But I think foleo should loaded with at least 1GB Ram.

    3. Browser, is it really can't do tapped browser? geez... it really not good, I really hope webBrowser on Palm can do at least as good as firefox without addon & plugin.

    4. Foleo should at least have security on both foleo itself and the CF as storage.

    5. Lacking of Mail on foleo really suck! I really hope can do pop3 mail and send/recive sms via phone on foleo. Typing long and many sms on phone quite tiring, I don't have Treo right now, I sold it, and hoping new born treo, now I just use SE K618i.

    6. With all hardware and software on foleo, I think it only worth no more then USD300.

    7. Bluetooth 1.2 really not good, I hope at least v2.0.


    And now the only question is:

    1. what type of phone that foleo currently can support. As mobile companion, foleo SHOULD BE can be sync with many many kind of phone, starting from standard phone to smartphone or pda phone both CDMA and GSM. If foleo failed to make foleo sync with many phone, then foleo surely shouldn't be called as mobile companion!

    2. What capacity of CF bundled with foleo, 1GB??? or 4GB or 8GB? I think Palm never give us a big capacity of storage eh?

    My Hope:
    1. I hope Linux Dev will support foleo by making software that can make foleo can send/receive sms via phone. and off course do pop mail.
    2. I hope foleo can emulate Palm software.


    You're welcome. I'm actually not "Chupa", though - they gave me their Treocentral login and asked me to post my impressions of the Foleo demo on Thursday in San Francisco and answer questions here this weekend. It's been an interesting experience reading the threads here at Treocentral the past few days, but after today I'll be done posting here - I unfortunately won't have the time to be checking this website. (If anyone has any questions after today feel free to post them anyway - I see "Chupa" regularly and they can probably pass the questions on and post any responses for me.) I'd suggest anyone considering getting a Foleo actually see one in person though - only YOU can decide if its right for you and its hard to appreciate just how nice it feels handling the Foleo until you've actually held it for yourself. Even if you read 1000 online reviews, remember they each just represent one person's uniquely biased opinion. Unless you know the reviewer somehow has the exact same priorities and tastes as you do, online reviews should always be taken with a grain of salt unless they're chock full of facts. Of course you know you can trust MY opinion completely though, right?

    - I agree the CPU choice is a probably a poor decision and it would be nice if the Foleo had a separate graphics chip like the ATI Imageon W4200 graphics accelerator seen in the Tapwave Zodiac 2.
    - Given how cheap RAM is I'm surprised by Palm's decision to underspec the Foleo.
    - Lack of tabbed browser/multiple browser instances was REALLY annoying. Until it's gone you forget how often you have multiple browser pages open at the same time.
    - I expect Palm realizes now that lack of security on the CompactFlash card is a major issue. Why they never thought better security was mandatory seems odd. In any event, even if Palm can't figure out how to properly secure the Foleo, TealPoint is apparently working on a version of TealLock for the Foleo. If it's anywhere as good as the TealLock I've used for years on my Palms it will be a fantastic app and would completely secure the Foleo. I think a fingerprint scanner is a must for a device like the Foleo, though. Little things like biometric security would make the Foleo's price a bit easier for people to swallow.
    - The missing standalone email is another poor choice, probably dictated by Palm's desire to emphasize the importance of their Treo lineup, help sell more Treos and differentiate the Foleo from small laptops like the Asus Eee PC.
    - The Foleo appears to be solidly crafted and despite a lack of software I'd estimate it's "worth" $400 as-is. Remember: Palm's poorly-made Tungsten E2 are selling for $200. The Foleo probably costs Palm $200 to get produced. Then add in the costs of R&D, software, transportation, advertising, wine/cheese/swag from the Foleo Sneek Peek Series ... selling it for $300 would be cutting things pretty thin. But if Palm wants to quickly create a Foleo community/ecosystem to attract developers to the platform they need to unload tens of thousands of Foleos this year. That simply won't happen if the price stays at $600.
    - I forgot to mention the slow Bluetooth as another negative. Bluetooth 1.2 is an odd choice for a device so dependent on its Bluetooth connection to its "companion" phones, but then again, don't pretty much all current Treos max out at Bluetooth 1.2 anyway? Bluetooth is also quite limited on the Foleo and supports only syncing and DUN. No OBEX profile is available, so you can forget about using Bluetooth to quickly send files to the Foleo from your Treo.

    - The Foleo initially will support Treo 7xx(p/w) models. No 650 or 680 support is expected at launch time in August. Some have suggested the Treo 650 and 680 will never be supported, which would severely limit the potential market for Foleos. I'd guess Palm has sold around 4 million 7xx(p/w) Treos in the past 18 months. How many of those customers are looking for a $600 small 2.5 pound Linux laptop? 1%? 0.5%? 1% would equate to 40,000 Foleo sales. If Palm makes $100 profit per sale that would bring in a pretty trivial $4 million into the company. I find it difficult to believe the Foleo is much more right now than a testbed for Palm Linux on phones - the bigger picture would be selling Foleos as an screen expansion accessory to Palm Linux phones capable of running the EXACT same apps as the Foleo. Users could buy a Treo and a Foleo instead of a PC. If that isn't Palm's plan then they've wasted 3 years of development on a laptop that would generate as much annual profits for the company as they probably spend on toilet paper.

    - As far as I know the bundled CompactFlash card will be 0 GB in size. The Palm Party is traditionally BYOC (Bring Your Own Card).
    - I think we may be expecting too much from the Linux developers and Linux hacker community. Nokia's 770 and N800 customers had similar hopes and have been disappointed so far.
    - PalmOS emulation (e.g. using a PACE equivalent) is apparently not going to be available on the Foleo when it ships. I suspect this is one of a dozen or so key features (along with PIM apps, better browser, better security, etc.) that ended up on the cutting room floor (as Antoine phrased so perfectly) in Palm's haste to get the Foleo on sale by August.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Bard View Post
    oh yes.... I forget one important thing.

    @chupa: do you know how big foleo's battery capacity? (mAH)

    I saw the pic, seems the battery quite big.
    I already deleted all of the photos I took on Thursday from my camera and the ones posted were taken at low resolution because they were just intended for online use. It looks to be a Li-ion 7.2 V 3600 mA/h cell. But don't quote me. Maybe someone like Ben Combee can confirm that for us.
  10.    #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by Antoine of MMM View Post
    Uhmm. Sounds like from a product design side of things that they got it spot on. The keyboard you describe sounds almost exactly as the recently released Palm BT keyboard. That one was one of the best not named an MS keyboard that I've been on in years (and I have used a ton).

    I hate the pointy stick, but to hear that most of the UI is navigable via keyboard shortcuts is good.

    Evernote, yea! Quality note program there. I wonder if this means that they have gotten a suitable Palm OS/Windows Mobile client done as well. That would be pretty neat.

    I do wonder if the RAM reported is just user RAM, with possible 128-256MB for the OS (not programs). That would be better, but eh, still too few MB to play with. Granted, one doesn't need a Gig, but it would have been nice to see 1GB at least. Though thinking about it, makes that Gates comment of people not needning more than 'x'K of space kinda pan out if they pull it off.
    Yes, the demo models seemed solid. But remember: we still don't know who made the demos for Palm and whether or not production models will be the same. Anyone who's seen the huge variation frequently occurring within the same model in Palm's devices over the years knows you often never know what you're getting with Palm until you actually open up the box.

    I think you either love or hate pointing sticks. I love them - in fact the TrackPoint is probably the main reason why I still use IBM ThinkPads. I've even switched my desktop keyboards to old (1990s vintage) IBM keyboards with built-in TrackPoints. Not having to constantly move your arm around mousing is brilliant ergonomic design in my opinion.

    I would assume (hope) most upcoming PIM-type apps for the Foleo will have a PalmOS version that syncs to the Foleo version. Otherwise, what's the point of the Foleo? I also suspect we won't see the true Treo-Foleo mirroring advantages until Treos start shipping with a version of Palm Linux instead of PalmOS 5 (Garnet).

    I believe the Foleo has a 256 MB chip, of which 128 MB is available to users for data + third party app storage, but don't quote me. In some ways the amount of RAM doesn't matter, since it seems unlikely that anyone buying a Foleo wouldn't immediately add a high speed 8 GB CompactFlash card for running apps + data storage. Of course this is yet another hidden cost for the Foleo.
  11.    #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by wlmoore View Post
    I discussed this with one of the Palm folks that night. In the end I deferred to them and didn't divulge here what little information I gleaned from the command line (I have no idea how you got that detailed screenshot...much respect due) as I agree with their argument that they have a right to control the flow of information. Deals can be won or lost based on information or mis-information being leaked. They took a risk bringing Foleos out in public of losing control of that info so there you go, but I opted not to take part.

    The screen was actually easy to access, no hacking necessary. But I believe several demo models have this screen... customized... so no useful info would be available. In the shipping models I believe the info may be accessible via a "details" button the wireless setup screen. Again don't quote me - I arrived at the Palm demo near the end of the session and was rushing to test as many feature as possible in the time I had.

    The fact that the Foleo is running a basic Treo CPU is actually a good thing, if you think about it. This means a regular Treo can run Palm Linux and lends more support to the theory that the Foleo OS + a PACE equivalent may be the foundation of upcoming Treos. If both the Foleo and future Treos have the same OS it would likely make it a lot easier for Treo apps to link up with the equivalent Foleo apps. I could envision Palm even issuing a version of Palm Linux to run on ultra cheap desktops set up in places like coffee shops, airports, schools, etc. that connect to a user's smartphone and customize the desktop to temporarily mimic whatever apps may be in use on the smartphone. I wonder if Palm could pull something like that off?

    Palm is releasing the Foleo in 2 weeks and has had the device in their hands for a year or two already. Releasing the Foleos specs isn't going to make a difference one way or another in how the Foleo fares. Two weeks from now someone will have posted a Foleo dissection with photos of every component in the case + put Terminal and every other app under the microscope for all the world to see in all its gory details. I think those of us who went to the demo sessions owe it to our fellow Palm users here to provide them with as many facts as possible so they can make educated decisions if they're planning to purchase Foleos sight unseen. I know when I purchase expensive electronics I try to read as many reviews as possible from credible sources to help narrow my choices. Then armed with those kinds of details I test possible contenders myself before opening my wallet. If my posts here have helped even a single user make a more informed purchase decision then the exercise was worthwhile and I've helped return the favor of countless reviewers before me. </pious soapbox mode >
  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Chupacabra View Post
    In some ways the amount of RAM doesn't matter, since it seems unlikely that anyone buying a Foleo wouldn't immediately add a high speed 8 GB CompactFlash card for running apps + data storage. Of course this is yet another hidden cost for the Foleo.
    I don't necessarily agree. I'd be willing to bet that most of the apps ported to the Foleo will be smaller, and that 128 mb for programs will be enough. If you've ever used DamnSmallLinux or PuppyLinux, its really amazing the amount of apps you can get in such a small space. DamnSmallLinux is 50 mb, and here's a (slightly older) list of the apps it has
    XMMS (MP3, CD Music, and MPEG), FTP client, Dillo web browser, Netrik web browser, FireFox, spreadsheet, Sylpheed email, spellcheck (US English), a word-processor (Ted), three editors (Beaver, Vim, and Nano [Pico clone]), graphics editing and viewing (Xpaint, and xzgv), Xpdf (PDF Viewer), emelFM (file manager), Naim (AIM, ICQ, IRC), VNCviwer, Rdesktop, SSH/SCP server and client, DHCP client, PPP, PPPoE (ADSL), a web server, calculator, generic and GhostScript printer support, NFS, Fluxbox and JWM window managers, games, system monitoring apps, a host of command line tools, USB support, and pcmcia support, some wireless support.
    Puppy Linux is 90mb, and has a few extra apps. It should also be noted that the minimum specs for it are a Pentium 166mhz, and 128 mb ram.

    I'm not trying to say that they're better or worse than Palm's implementation or anything, but if designed correctly, a lightweight linux distro really doesn't need all that much hardware, or storage space. (I still want a faster processor, but I'm not all that disappointed by 128 mb of storage space.)
    Last edited by jhoff80; 07/22/2007 at 08:10 PM.
  13. #53  
    You know, I have to agree on the BT 1.2 issue. It really makes me wonder what they were thinking. It's the single biggest impediment to tethering my laptop on my Treo 700P now.

    Even going with 802.11b only doesn't seem as bad as going with BT 1.2. For the life of me, I can't figure out why they would do that.

    I suspect that with the compact flash slot showing up as system memory and not removeable memory like the SD card, that the memory issue will become less of an issue overall.

    We'll know soon enough.
  14. #54  
    My guess is because the Treos that it'll be pairing with only support 1.2, and they probably figure that by the time they use Bluetooth 2.0 on a future device, they'll be on v2 of the Foleo.
  15.    #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by SteveNYC View Post
    You know, I have to agree on the BT 1.2 issue. It really makes me wonder what they were thinking. It's the single biggest impediment to tethering my laptop on my Treo 700P now.

    Even going with 802.11b only doesn't seem as bad as going with BT 1.2. For the life of me, I can't figure out why they would do that.

    I suspect that with the compact flash slot showing up as system memory and not removeable memory like the SD card, that the memory issue will become less of an issue overall.

    We'll know soon enough.

    Palm seems to lack the knowhow to deal with Bluetooth stacks. They've had problems properly integrating Bluetooth into Treos for over 2 years now.

    While it would be nice to not have to pay for memory right away, I think the decision to use CF cards as a RAM equivalent is a smart one as long as card speeds are fast enough to mimic a decent hard drive. Palm will need to let users know what CF cards are acceptable so no one endures the kind of laggy torture seen with MicroDrives on the LifeDrive.


    Quote Originally Posted by jhoff80 View Post
    My guess is because the Treos that it'll be pairing with only support 1.2, and they probably figure that by the time they use Bluetooth 2.0 on a future device, they'll be on v2 of the Foleo.

    Probably. But I guess that assumes they won't be supporting any other phones any time soon.
  16. #56  
    No 650 or 680 support is expected at launch time in August. Some have suggested the Treo 650 and 680 will never be supported
    Thats really sucks! why Palm not care with their loyal customer outside USA?

    As far as I know the bundled CompactFlash card will be 0 GB in size. The Palm Party is traditionally BYOC (Bring Your Own Card)
    Oh man... Asus EEE PC bundled with 8GB/16GB CF, and Palm don't give any CF inside foleo package? I don't know how people on Palm company think to run business.

    PalmOS emulation (e.g. using a PACE equivalent) is apparently not going to be available on the Foleo when it ships. I suspect this is one of a dozen or so key features (along with PIM apps, better browser, better security, etc.) that ended up on the cutting room floor (as Antoine phrased so perfectly) in Palm's haste to get the Foleo on sale by August
    Lacking of software because to haste the release of foleo before ASUS EEE on market really ridiculous reason, how much benefit they will get over ASUS EEE by release foleo earlier 1-2 weeks? Lacking of software will make me (and most people) think twice to decide to buy foleo, more over with price USD600 with mail rebate USD100 still quite expensive.

    Ok I think for this moment I rate foleo:
    1. Design and build 9/10
    2. Hardware 6/10
    3. Software 3/10
    4. Price 6/10

    I think I will wait till the price goes down or the software become mature before buy foleo. I think there is no reason for me to buy this device when it released this August. And foleo isn't like what I hope before, It is not a MOBILE COMPANION like jeff said... foleo just a pricey TREO 7xx COMPANION. no more no less
  17. #57  
    It seems to me that the older technologies embedded to the Foleo (802.11b, BT1.2, 415mhz CPU) underlines the speculation of Foleo's delay. It seems that the hardware spec was finalized (and sourced out) quite sometime ago and they just had to stick with it even with the missed deadline.

    If they were to source the parts more recently (less than a year ago?), they would've gotten more updated parts for very little difference in price and most likely technically backward compatible (or requiring very minimal changes). I don't think there are any other new devices released in 2007 with 802.11b.
  18. #58  
    PalmOS emulation (e.g. using a PACE equivalent) is apparently not going to be available on the Foleo when it ships. I suspect this is one of a dozen or so key features (along with PIM apps, better browser, better security, etc.) that ended up on the cutting room floor (as Antoine phrased so perfectly) in Palm's haste to get the Foleo on sale by August.

    Am I the only one who doesn't want Palm OS apps running on the Foleo? Has anyone here ever used the Simulator on their desktop and seen how much it stretches things? Don't get me wrong, the Linux Treos better have backwards compatibility with all Palm OS apps, but for the Foleo, I'd much rather see ports, the way they're doing it now.
  19. #59  
    Am I the only one who doesn't want Palm OS apps running on the Foleo? Has anyone here ever used the Simulator on their desktop and seen how much it stretches things? Don't get me wrong, the Linux Treos better have backwards compatibility with all Palm OS apps, but for the Foleo, I'd much rather see ports, the way they're doing it now.
    I mostly eager foleo can run Palm application, no matter it is stretched or not.
    Because Palm 3rd Party software is the one reason why Palm still stand right now against giant rival such windows mobile, symbian and blackberry. More over adding such feature, can attract people that love Palm app but don't want to buy any Palm PDA or Treo phone.
  20. #60  
    The more I read about the Foloe, the more I wish its a LifeDrive sized device with 8GB flash memory and a Linux OS that can backward emulate PalmOS 5. You can throw a keyboard at it if you want to.

    We will never hear the Palm suits admit the design flaws of the Foloe until one day the company become irrelevent and being brought out by some small time OEM company.
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