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  1. wlmoore's Avatar
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    #61  
    I'm not trying to be inflammatory but I'd like to play Palm's advocate for a second and ask, why is it so necessary for the Foleo to have a PIM?

    I think Palm's position is that PIMs on today's smartphones work fine, and don't scream out for a bigger screen and keyboard like their stated target applications do: web, email, office document apps.

    Sure it would be nice to run a PIM withscreen + keyboard, and of course there are synergies to be found in integrating PIM with the other apps, but from Palm's point of view PIM on the smartphone is in the "it ain't broke" bucket.

    If I owned a Foleo I personally wouldn't really miss a PIM app and wouldn't purchase one. I would just continue to use my Treo. For those who do require PIM on the Foleo, it's available as an option.
  2. #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by wlmoore View Post
    I'm not trying to be inflammatory but I'd like to play Palm's advocate for a second and ask, why is it so necessary for the Foleo to have a PIM?

    I think Palm's position is that PIMs on today's smartphones work fine, and don't scream out for a bigger screen and keyboard like their stated target applications do: web, email, office document apps.

    Sure it would be nice to run a PIM withscreen + keyboard, and of course there are synergies to be found in integrating PIM with the other apps, but from Palm's point of view PIM on the smartphone is in the "it ain't broke" bucket.

    If I owned a Foleo I personally wouldn't really miss a PIM app and wouldn't purchase one. I would just continue to use my Treo. For those who do require PIM on the Foleo, it's available as an option.
    I see your point, but I think anyone who pays $500 for this thing, deserves that option and more. Natively.

    One thing I've learned about the value of "nativity" is that having to reinstall is a pain - moreso when it's an issue of basic functionality.
    * Stuck patches? Partial erase worked for me.
    * Stuck virtual keyboard? Partial erase AND folder deletion worked for me.
  3. #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by west3man View Post
    I see your point, but I think anyone who pays $500 for this thing, deserves that option and more. Natively.

    One thing I've learned about the value of "nativity" is that having to reinstall is a pain - moreso when it's an issue of basic functionality.
    You do have the option, you can buy it. I know this argument is getting old, but remember how people reacted at the price when the iPod came out? There were more feature rich, smaller MP3 players out at the time that were better. That didn't matter. They still bought it after experiencing the ease of use.

    Just like the gaming console industry, I see the price of the Foleo coming down to the 300 range eventually. They will probably keep the specs the same and move it down the product line. So the Foleo of today will be 300 in the future, while new models are still 500 with upgraded hardware.
  4. #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by wlmoore View Post
    I'm not trying to be inflammatory but I'd like to play Palm's advocate for a second and ask, why is it so necessary for the Foleo to have a PIM?

    I think Palm's position is that PIMs on today's smartphones work fine, and don't scream out for a bigger screen and keyboard like their stated target applications do: web, email, office document apps.

    Sure it would be nice to run a PIM withscreen + keyboard, and of course there are synergies to be found in integrating PIM with the other apps, but from Palm's point of view PIM on the smartphone is in the "it ain't broke" bucket.

    If I owned a Foleo I personally wouldn't really miss a PIM app and wouldn't purchase one. I would just continue to use my Treo. For those who do require PIM on the Foleo, it's available as an option.
    I generally don't enter new contacts, tasks, calendar entries directly on the Treo. I jot them down on paper, then enter them into the Palm Desktop once I get to a computer. Most of my memos and note attachments are data pasted from the web into the Desktop, then synched to the Treo. Thumb typing isn't difficult for me, nor was Graffiti, but pen and paper are faster; and it would take forever to peck in all the information I paste into note fields. One of the main reasons I switched from the Newton to the Palm III was HotSynch. If I wanted my Newton's information mirrored on my PC, I had to buy a Windows Connection Kit -- or a Mac.

    Another reason is that PIMs are integrated into or sit alongside the email clients most used by professionals (Outlook, Lotus Notes, Mail.app/iCal), and their use is often tightly coupled. Many projects and tasks discussed in emails need to be entered onto a calendar or task list, and contacts not properly v-cal formatted need be entered by hand; conversely, the reminder to email someone often resides in a calendar or task entry. In Outlook, you can actually drag email headers into your tasks list. The bottom line is, quite simply, that most hardcore email users in the milieu that Palm is targeting for this device use Outlook, and email/PIM integration is expected.

    In my experience, most deskbound workers leave their PDAs in the cradle, and refer to their desktop PIM to manage their day. When leaving the office they sync their PDAs, which are only used when mobile.

    As far as the lack of a need to see PIM apps on a larger screen, the web is fully of testimonials to the contrary by former PDA junkies who went back to paper day planners (Google for "Getting Things Done," "Hipster PDA" or Moleskine fanboy sites, and see how often the topic comes up). One of the most recurring complaints in the inability to appointments on such a small screen. I personally don't have a problem with the Treo's day view, but seeing only black dots on week and month views is completely useless.
  5. #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by wlmoore View Post
    I'm not trying to be inflammatory but I'd like to play Palm's advocate for a second and ask, why is it so necessary for the Foleo to have a PIM?.
    Two words: Month View.
  6. #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by NickDG View Post
    You do have the option, you can buy it. I know this argument is getting old, but remember how people reacted at the price when the iPod came out? There were more feature rich, smaller MP3 players out at the time that were better. That didn't matter. They still bought it after experiencing the ease of use.
    Ease of use is precisely the reason to include a PIM natively. Palm built no small part of their reputation on having an excellent desktop client bundled in with the purchase of the Pilot.

    For me it's not so much a question of cost as it is design priorities. If Palm can burn Bejewled into my 755p's ROM, I don't think throwing the Palm Desktop into the Foleo is much to ask.
  7. #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by NickDG View Post
    You do have the option, you can buy it.
    "Natively."
    * Stuck patches? Partial erase worked for me.
    * Stuck virtual keyboard? Partial erase AND folder deletion worked for me.
  8. #68  
    Docs To Go looks like one app included, looking at this. Also a PDF reader. Although I can't tell if these were added later. Hopefully they're included as basic apps. But looking at the start menu, looks like none of those other apps mentioned here are on there, so maybe they are extra.

    http://www.infosyncworld.com/mobilit...foleo.html?n=3
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  9. #69  
    They've already stated that Docs to Go, Opera, Email, and a photo viewer are included. And they've said that the recently announced apps will be sold separately.
  10. #70  
    I saw the post about that letter someone got back. But the photo pretty much confirms for my own eyes that we're just going to get bare bones for $500-$600.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  11. Q
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    #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    I personally don't have a problem with the Treo's day view, but seeing only black dots on week and month views is completely useless.
    I agree that black dots are useless. That said, 1) any recent Palm OS device (T3/Tungsten E and later) includes categories in the calendar to color-code. 2) Apps like Datebk6 or Agendus let you use icons in week or month view.

    While I'm disappointed that Palm hasn't bundled PIM apps, one reason could be compatibility. If they're looking for the Foleo to work with most/any smartphone out there, there may need to be different conduits. I know--it's hard to say.

    Still, as I've said before, I'm definitely interested in getting one. I do a lot of my entry from a PC too, whether typed in or copied and pasted. My next main computer will be a desktop replacement laptop, and I'll be glad to have something lighter and more portable to supplement it. Is the Foleo perfect? No. Is it a good fit for me? Yes.
  12. #72  
    Palm's long-term plan for the Foleo is the synch with non-Treo phones. In the interim, they only have to deal with POS and WM platforms. Since they've put so much time and energy into synching email (which could have been accomplished with IMAP instead of a conduit), overlooking the Treo's remaining core functionality strikes me as mismanaged priorities.

    I've said enough about the issue. I'll purchase mDayscape and move on to other concerns. I'm going back to the Palm Store in LA in a couple of weeks for the next preview and see how things of evolved.
  13. TxDot's Avatar
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    #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    ...I'm going back to the Palm Store in LA in a couple of weeks for the next preview and see how things of evolved.
    It's really not very nice of you to go to multiple sneak previews when some of us can't even go to one! OK, as long as you keep up the good "reporting" you can go.
    GSM Treo 600 > Unlocked GSM Treo 650 on T-Mobile - Attempting to use a BB Curve

    Technology is neither good nor evil, good people will find good uses for it and evil people will find evil uses for it. Phil P.
  14. TRgEOff's Avatar
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    #74  
    Couldn't resist! This from the major iPhone review on Endgadget Mobile:

    "To us, a productivity device is anything that helps us Get Things Done while we're out and about, and email, web, and SMS are the holy trinity on a smartphone device. If any part of that trifecta is crap, the whole device may as well be crap. And unfortunately for us, even if you can put up with the keyboard, the Mail client is so awful it actually makes us wish Apple made a Foleo for the iPhone. An iFoleo, if you will. Anyway, if you're anything like us, this is a major, major dealbreaker."

    http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/03/i...l-safari-ipod/

    cheers
    Last edited by TRgEOff; 07/03/2007 at 05:21 AM.
    geoff

    Treo 650 1.20 LAP.
  15. #75  
    lol I saw that.

    Palm has said they would like to support the iPhone, "they're going to need it" (if I may paraphrase slightly). Maybe Palm was onto something. Not sure if Apple people though are up to buying non-Apple devices though.

    WMExperts: News, Reviews & Podcasts + Twitter
  16. #76  
    The Apple crowd may just buy a Folio, if it comes in white and is re-named the iFoleo. Don't they buy lots of ipod accessories not made by Apple?
    "Everybody Palm!"

    Palm III/IIIC, Palm Vx, Verizon: Treo 650, Centro, Pre+.
    Leo killed my future Pre 3 & Opal, dagnabitt!
    Should I buy a Handspring Visor instead?
    Got a Pre2! "It eats iPhones for Breakfast"!
  17. wlmoore's Avatar
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    #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    lol I saw that.

    Palm has said they would like to support the iPhone, "they're going to need it" (if I may paraphrase slightly). Maybe Palm was onto something. Not sure if Apple people though are up to buying non-Apple devices though.
    Whoa, slow your roll, there. "Apple" people do buy Treos, you know.

    The day the Foleo was announced I immediately thought it would be just what the iPhone needs. I got further excited when Apple's Rubenstein and Anderson joined Palm's board.

    On further reflection though it's unlikely Foleo and iPhone will ever work together because there's no incentive for Apple to support Foleo. It would be like an admission of shortcomings in the iPhone which would be very un-Apple. Plus Apple would much rather sell you a MacBook. They're kinda unique in that now they sell phones and laptops; very tough for Palm to cut in there. The Engadget review cites serious iPhone/Mac email integration shortcomings, but I suspect Apple will resolve those within the next 12 months. They also need to get DUN going, which of course they will claim to have invented.
  18. Q
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    #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by wlmoore View Post
    Whoa, slow your roll, there. "Apple" people do buy Treos, you know.

    The day the Foleo was announced I immediately thought it would be just what the iPhone needs. I got further excited when Apple's Rubenstein and Anderson joined Palm's board.

    On further reflection though it's unlikely Foleo and iPhone will ever work together because there's no incentive for Apple to support Foleo. It would be like an admission of shortcomings in the iPhone which would be very un-Apple. Plus Apple would much rather sell you a MacBook. They're kinda unique in that now they sell phones and laptops; very tough for Palm to cut in there. The Engadget review cites serious iPhone/Mac email integration shortcomings, but I suspect Apple will resolve those within the next 12 months. They also need to get DUN going, which of course they will claim to have invented.
    What might be more likely (for a Foleo + iPhone scenario) is that either once a real SDK for the iPhone is announced or someone has a chance to play with it more and figure out how, that we see something available from a third-party developer. I'm thinking someone like mark/space (The Missing Sync). Even if there is no SDK, some of these developers may take that as a challenge.
  19. #79  
    Quote Originally Posted by wlmoore View Post
    I'm not trying to be inflammatory but I'd like to play Palm's advocate for a second and ask, why is it so necessary for the Foleo to have a PIM?

    I think Palm's position is that PIMs on today's smartphones work fine, and don't scream out for a bigger screen and keyboard like their stated target applications do: web, email, office document apps.

    Sure it would be nice to run a PIM withscreen + keyboard, and of course there are synergies to be found in integrating PIM with the other apps, but from Palm's point of view PIM on the smartphone is in the "it ain't broke" bucket.

    If I owned a Foleo I personally wouldn't really miss a PIM app and wouldn't purchase one. I would just continue to use my Treo. For those who do require PIM on the Foleo, it's available as an option.

    I tend to agree with you, but not for the reasons you express.
    I think there is one major technical issue that people are not registering.

    Palm has stated that the Plan for the Foleo is to have it sync with Blacberries Windows mobile, PalmOS, Nokia, and Applw Smartphones. Unfortunately there is no standard for PIM data across these various platforms, so a one size fits all contacts app, is probably not neccesarily the best use of Palm's resources. I suspect as timw goes on much of this PIM data will be available on the internet, requiring a standalone PIM app on the Foleo as a lower and lower priority. (I suspect that the connecter writers will provide the PIM apps.
    HP200LX -> Palm Pilot -> Palm III -> Sony PEG-300 -> Sony PEG-N710C -> Treo 650 -> Treo 700p -> Treo 755p -> (iPhone or Treo 800L or something unexpected)??
  20. #80  
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandorr View Post
    I think there is one major technical issue that people are not registering.

    Palm has stated that the Plan for the Foleo is to have it sync with Blacberries Windows mobile, PalmOS, Nokia, and Applw Smartphones. Unfortunately there is no standard for PIM data across these various platforms, so a one size fits all contacts app, is probably not neccesarily the best use of Palm's resources. I suspect as timw goes on much of this PIM data will be available on the internet, requiring a standalone PIM app on the Foleo as a lower and lower priority. (I suspect that the connecter writers will provide the PIM apps.
    I addressed the theory about support for future platforms in my last post. Again, I don't buy it. As it stands, the Foleo's Versamail will only synch with the Treo, POS and WM. The only phones the Palm will support when the Foleo ships are Treos. There's a difference between what the Foleo will support technologically (BT HID/DUN profiles at minimum) and what Palm will support institutionally. Institutional supports will depend on cooperation from the other manufacturers involved: Nokia, RIM, Apple, Sony, Motorola, etc. That will happen one agreement at a time, and is hardly a foregone conclusion.

    My sense of Hawkins' announcement of multi-platform support was that it was more of an appeal to those companies than a declaration of something genuinely imminent. Technically, the Foleo's BT is platform agnostic, but I think Apple adding DUN to support the Foleo is about as likely as outfitting their computers with 2-button mice.

    Needless to say, other companies will be more flexible.
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