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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by dstrauss View Post
    Let's just face facts here folks...it's too little, too late. In 1995, as an adjunct to an otherwise deficient cell phone, it would have been handy. Today, with Palm, HTC, Samsung, Moto, Nokia and others making fully functional converged devices, it has no place to go.
    Fully functional converged devices with cramped inputs and displays don't scale for longer sessions, except for power users that thumb type prodigiously. The Foleo offers proper ergonomics for serious work.

    If you want a bigger screen and keyboard, why choose this limited function device at 2.5 lbs when you can get a 4 lb full feature notebook(albeit more expensive). Either way, you're carrying a lot more than the converged device you started with. This really adds nothing to the landscape for the ubiquitous data access that Hawkins "hawked" in teasing fashion for the last two years.
    My laptop is 5.4 lbs, which is typical for under-$1000 models. Why do people buy Razrs when the could buy a more expensive converged device at twice the size, weight and cost? They've obviously decided that the extra functionality doesn't justify the excess baggage. Of course, you're absolutely right that the Foleo adds nothing to the landscape for ubiquitous data access. Right now you can by and laptop and a BT dongle (or pay a premium for integrated BT) and sync to your smartphone. The Foleo is just more streamlined for the process.

    I'm tired of being told I just don't get it (the concept)...the truth of the matter is I do and it doesn't smell like roses. JUst tell me HOW the Fool-eoh is better than any of the ultralights being mentioned (asus, etc.). Either you want to be fully mobile and untethered, or you want a min-laptop experience.
    When the Palm V came out, I couldn't understand why anyone would want to pay $500 for a PDA that had exactly the same features as my Palm III at $300. Then I saw one in a store. There's an array of aesthetic and ergonomic factors to weigh into your purchase decision. For me the Asus is more Radio Shack than Apple. But since I don't need to play DVDs, rip CDs or run Photoshop on the go, the Foleo is the most appropriate tool for the job, since I'm not toting around functionality that I'm not using. YMMV.
  2. braj's Avatar
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    #22  
    I'm wondering where these things will be available to look at and touch, seeing Palm's in-store presence at major retailers has died away withthier abandonment of the PDA market.
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by braj View Post
    I'm wondering where these things will be available to look at and touch, seeing Palm's in-store presence at major retailers has died away withthier abandonment of the PDA market.
    The Foleo is a standalone product, so Palm isn't confined to carrier merchandising channels. On the other hand, since this is being marketed as a pricey not-a-laptop product (a subnotebook that doesn't do Windoze), I don't see many retailers being eager to take on the risk of stocking it before it's a proven success. Check on Palm's website to see if you're near a Palm Retail Store.
  4. #24  
    with 99% of the general tech users bashing it, palm's own forum has more than 70+% bashing it, foleo may beat microsoft's zune as the biggest flop ever.

    those who get the concept are the one's dissapointed with it. with not a SINGLE feature w/c stands up to products out there, plus too pricey for an accesory?
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by Japorms View Post
    with 99% of the general tech users bashing it, palm's own forum has more than 70+% bashing it, foleo may beat microsoft's zune as the biggest flop ever.
    The same thing happened with the Pilot. The PDA was a written-off product category, thanks to the Newton, and the few PDA defenders still around were Newton snobs quick to point out how limited the Pilot was. What turned the tide was the hands-on experience of the early adopters who were actually using it. Word of mouth took care of the rest.
    those who get the concept are the one's dissapointed with it. with not a SINGLE feature w/c stands up to products out there, plus too pricey for an accesory?
    There's a limit to how informative a feature list can be when comparing products ostensibly in the same category. The Pilot and the Newton are perfect examples. My Newton 110 blew my Palm III away on paper, but it was an pain to use by comparison.

    99% of tech "users" (pundits) have not used the Foleo, so the bashing is uninformed, regardless of whether or not they "get" the concept (whatever that means). What matters is whether or not your experience using a device is satisfactory. In the three days that have gone by since using the Foleo, what's surprised me most is just how irritated I am at having to use a regular laptop: twice the weight, several times the heat, the additional noise, the 2-minute boot time, the shutdown time, the delay of splash screens in application launching, finding an outlet, unraveling a power brick and coiling it back up. I could live with all of these annoyances if what I was actually doing with the laptop throughout a typical day required serious horsepower. But take this very moment, reading and posting on TreoCentral. I'd love to just open the lid, hit the power button and log on in the few seconds without worrying about whether or not I'm in a WiFi zone; then when finished just close the lid and get on with the rest of life.

    Most critics cite the cost as the number of dollars they're paying for a device. I measure the cost in daily weight carried. If I'm carrying around a standard laptop that's twice the weight of the Foleo, I'm paying an extra cost in exertion.
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    The same thing happened with the Pilot. The PDA was a written-off product category, thanks to the Newton, and the few PDA defenders still around were Newton snobs quick to point out how limited the Pilot was. What turned the tide was the hands-on experience of the early adopters who were actually using it. Word of mouth took care of the rest.
    There's a limit to how informative a feature list can be when comparing products ostensibly in the same category. The Pilot and the Newton are perfect examples. My Newton 110 blew my Palm III away on paper, but it was an pain to use by comparison.

    99% of tech "users" (pundits) have not used the Foleo, so the bashing is uninformed, regardless of whether or not they "get" the concept (whatever that means). What matters is whether or not your experience using a device is satisfactory. In the three days that have gone by since using the Foleo, what's surprised me most is just how irritated I am at having to use a regular laptop: twice the weight, several times the heat, the additional noise, the 2-minute boot time, the shutdown time, the delay of splash screens in application launching, finding an outlet, unraveling a power brick and coiling it back up. I could live with all of these annoyances if what I was actually doing with the laptop throughout a typical day required serious horsepower. But take this very moment, reading and posting on TreoCentral. I'd love to just open the lid, hit the power button and log on in the few seconds without worrying about whether or not I'm in a WiFi zone; then when finished just close the lid and get on with the rest of life.

    Most critics cite the cost as the number of dollars they're paying for a device. I measure the cost in daily weight carried. If I'm carrying around a standard laptop that's twice the weight of the Foleo, I'm paying an extra cost in exertion.

    I get the feeling from your posts here that you're a fairly intelligent power user that is willing to accept compromises and that a few hundred dollars is not a significant expense for you. Unfortunately for Palm, there are probably very few people that are as open-minded or flexible as you are. Most of us will simply look and see that the ASUS Eee PC costs 1/3 (!!!) the price of a Foleo, has a lot more built-in applications than a Foleo, has much better specs than a Foleo, can potentially run Windows, etc and then will simply ingore the Foleo. If no one buys Foleos, few developers will bother to support it (remember what happened with Cobalt?).

    Palm's positioning of the Foleo seems to be rather schizophrenic, possibly because the software it needs to show its true potential is not ready yet. I get the feeling the Foleo is essentially a public beta that we're being offered the "privelege" to pay for.



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  7. #27  
    I think we're all power users here to some degree, and all guilty of overconceptualizing the product. My feeling is that the moment someone in a meeting puts one on the desk, opens the lid, hits the power button and starts immediately taking notes, people are going to ask what he or she is using. The Asus scores higher if you're aggregating a spreadsheet of values based on pure specs. On paper it definitely offer more bang for the buck. But so did the Palm III compared to the Palm V. It ultimately comes down to which one offers more visceral attraction on the street. Maybe when I actually use the Eee, I'll have a different perspective.
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by Japorms View Post
    with 99% of the general tech users bashing it, palm's own forum has more than 70+% bashing it, foleo may beat microsoft's zune as the biggest flop ever.

    those who get the concept are the one's dissapointed with it. with not a SINGLE feature w/c stands up to products out there, plus too pricey for an accesory?
    Can anyone say PCjr? Another computer in search of a function...
    Remember, the "P" in PDA stands for personal.
    If it works for you, it is "P"erfect.
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Chupacabra View Post
    ...Most of us will simply look and see that the ASUS Eee PC costs 1/3 (!!!) the price of a Foleo, has a lot more built-in applications than a Foleo, has much better specs than a Foleo, can potentially run Windows, etc and then will simply ingore the Foleo. If no one buys Foleos, few developers will bother to support it (remember what happened with Cobalt?).
    Most of us maybe, but more people will make their decision based on hearing about other peoples experiences and not on spec sheets which they cannot understand anyway. In my opinion, the success or failure of the Foleo will hinge on the first set of buyers experiences. When they pull it out at meetings or coffee shops and are asked about it, if they respond with "I love this thing" and start showing it off, the Foleo is on its way and developers will follow sales.

    Of course, that response will have to be earned...
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    I think we're all power users here to some degree, and all guilty of overconceptualizing the product. My feeling is that the moment someone in a meeting puts one on the desk, opens the lid, hits the power button and starts immediately taking notes, people are going to ask what he or she is using. The Asus scores higher if you're aggregating a spreadsheet of values based on pure specs. On paper it definitely offer more bang for the buck. But so did the Palm III compared to the Palm V. It ultimately comes down to which one offers more visceral attraction on the street. Maybe when I actually use the Eee, I'll have a different perspective.
    "Overconceptualizing"? I don't think so. We're struggling to explain why Palm would release a $600 Linux laptop with exceptionally weak specs and almost no software. The only way this all makes any sense is if the Foleo is just the tip of the iceberg and the more important concepts (wireless syncing of data) are what lie beneath the surface. If it turns out that Palm can't deliver on the wireless syncing concept then the Foleo will die a quick, ignoble death.


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  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by dstrauss View Post
    Can anyone say PCjr? Another computer in search of a function...
    So how much money have you lost shorting PALM? You've been declaring Palm dead for a couple years now.
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Chupacabra View Post
    "Overconceptualizing"? We're struggling to explain why Palm would release a $600 Linux laptop with exceptionally weak specs and almost no software. The only way this all makes any sense is if the Foleo is just the tip of the iceberg and the more important concepts (wireless syncing of data) are what lie beneath the surface.
    Yes, because publicly traded corporations like to keep their real deal concepts a secret while they publicly announce laughably embarrassing products. It's a really great way to raise the stockholders' confidence. The other way this makes sense is Palm really miscalculated on this one. It happens and it's not all that uncommon.
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kupe View Post
    Yes, because publicly traded corporations like to keep their real deal concepts a secret while they publicly announce laughably embarrassing products. It's a really great way to raise the stockholders' confidence. The other way this makes sense is Palm really miscalculated on this one. It happens and it's not all that uncommon.

    I think Palm thought their software would all be ready by now and it isn't. Rather than delaying the release of the Foleo they decided to put it out as is and hope it will catch on. I expect we'll see a flurry of "enhancements" to the Foleo (i.e. bugfixes + providing missing features) within the first 6 months of release. Jeff Hawkins must have been embarassed demoing the Foleo without any useful software! But it probably would have been more damaging to Palm if Hawkins had pulled out of the All Things Digital conference and announced that they were delaying shipping of the Foleo 6 months. By December the ASUS Eee PC would have been out for a while and it would be difficult for Palm to release a $600 Linux laptop once the Eee PC (and others like it) have been out in the wild for a while.

    Not only is Palm's software development moving too slowly but they also seem to have been shocked by the competition 2 years running. Last year the Motorola Q and this year the ASUS Eee PC. And the competition is only going to get worse from now on.
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by samkim View Post
    So how much money have you lost shorting PALM? You've been declaring Palm dead for a couple years now.
    Not a penny Sam; that's not what the diatribe is about. It is all about lost opportunity, squandered potential, and waste. Palm leapt to the front with the Treo 600. Sorry, that's wrong, Handspring did, and since then it has been basically static while the rest of the converged device world raced past them. Then for two years, while users clamored for real change, Hawkins' continued a "tease" campaign touting ubiquitous data access and a ground breaking device.

    Then we get the Foleo. A device allegedly five years in the making which might have been relevant in 2003 when the 600 debuted, but it's just not. CP/M didn't disappear overnight, but the end was clear. Perhaps Palm will make ago of it in a niche as just another WM distributor, but as the sole supplier of Frankengarnet/Palm Linux devices, how can that bode well for them? Just as people clung to Wordstar on CP/M because of their mental investment in the software, many do so with the Palm interface now; but that co-dependency didn't save CP/M and won't save Palm.
    Remember, the "P" in PDA stands for personal.
    If it works for you, it is "P"erfect.
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Chupacabra View Post
    "Overconceptualizing"? I don't think so. We're struggling to explain why Palm would release a $600 Linux laptop with exceptionally weak specs and almost no software. The only way this all makes any sense is if the Foleo is just the tip of the iceberg and the more important concepts (wireless syncing of data) are what lie beneath the surface. If it turns out that Palm can't deliver on the wireless syncing concept then the Foleo will die a quick, ignoble death.
    That's a good example of what I characterize as overconceptualizing. The Foleo is basically a PDA with a larger screen and keyboard. In use, its attraction is fairly obvious. It's light, aesthetically appealing, ready to work instantly, connects to the internet with or without WiFi, and doesn't require a power brick. The iPod Shuffle had exceptionally weak specs compared to normal iPod, and was a poor dollar value by comparison, but it was light and simple to use. The same was true for the first gen iPod compared to the Creative Nomad, the reigning HDD audio player of its time. Again, ergonomic and aesthetic considerations are routinely left out of tech discourse, so experts are continually bewildered by the success of products that more naive users buy in droves. By our standards, the Razr should have been a complete failure. By my standards the iPhone should be a failure (no third-party software = no sale). These aren't products for propellerheads.
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    ...Again, ergonomic and aesthetic considerations are routinely left out of tech discourse, so experts are continually bewildered by the success of products that more naive users buy in droves. By our standards, the Razr should have been a complete failure. By my standards the iPhone should be a failure (no third-party software = no sale). These aren't products for propellerheads.
    This could be one of the most insiteful posts yet on this subject. WE are the ones who just don't get it.
    Remember, the "P" in PDA stands for personal.
    If it works for you, it is "P"erfect.
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    That's a good example of what I characterize as overconceptualizing. The Foleo is basically a PDA with a larger screen and keyboard. In use, its attraction is fairly obvious. It's light, aesthetically appealing, ready to work instantly, connects to the internet with or without WiFi, and doesn't require a power brick. The iPod Shuffle had exceptionally weak specs compared to normal iPod, and was a poor dollar value by comparison, but it was light and simple to use. The same was true for the first gen iPod compared to the Creative Nomad, the reigning HDD audio player of its time. Again, ergonomic and aesthetic considerations are routinely left out of tech discourse, so experts are continually bewildered by the success of products that more naive users buy in droves. By our standards, the Razr should have been a complete failure. By my standards the iPhone should be a failure (no third-party software = no sale). These aren't products for propellerheads.

    Yes, we know that specs are not necessarily what drives sales to the average consumer. But the Foleo does not appear to be aesthetically pleasing in my opinion. We'll soon see if the public agrees, because as things stand now there is not a lot in the Foleo package that warrants its $600 pricetag.
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Chupacabra View Post
    But the Foleo does not appear to be aesthetically pleasing in my opinion.
    That was my feeling about the Razr.
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy70 View Post
    That's a good example of what I characterize as overconceptualizing. The Foleo is basically a PDA with a larger screen and keyboard. In use, its attraction is fairly obvious. It's light, aesthetically appealing, ready to work instantly, connects to the internet with or without WiFi, and doesn't require a power brick. The iPod Shuffle had exceptionally weak specs compared to normal iPod, and was a poor dollar value by comparison, but it was light and simple to use. The same was true for the first gen iPod compared to the Creative Nomad, the reigning HDD audio player of its time. Again, ergonomic and aesthetic considerations are routinely left out of tech discourse, so experts are continually bewildered by the success of products that more naive users buy in droves. By our standards, the Razr should have been a complete failure. By my standards the iPhone should be a failure (no third-party software = no sale). These aren't products for propellerheads.
    Very compelling points.
    We have enough youth, how about a fountain of smart?
  20. #40  
    I really don't understand why there is so much hate for the Foleo. I think it is brilliant and will sell very well once people see other people using it, just like the first Palm Pilot.

    I have tons of friends who aren't tech savy at all and all they want is a computer that does e-mail and web. This would be perfect for them. Simple, light, and small. Something you could easily take with you, like a real folio.

    All the people who talk about how a laptop is a better choice don't understand the common consumer. The common consumer doesn't care about the specs, how much ram it has, etc. They just want an easy to use product. Form before function.
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