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  1.    #1  
    From Jeff Hawkins's Oral History (page 34, warning-PDF Link):

    I really dislike Windows software. I really think it’s a disservice in many ways; the way the industry’s turned out is unfortunate. And there’s a theme in my life, by the way, which I really want to correct this. I want to correct- underlying a lot of this, besides the brain work, another theme (maybe this is one of the questions we get to at the end here) is really how do you make personal computers that are better and useful for a larger audience.
    So to put this in context, he's talking about his dislike of Windows and how he sees it as a disservice (too complicated, bloated, etc). One of his goals is to correct this, offering an alternative to Windows for personal computing. And as Palm's tagline for their vision goes, "The future of personal computing is mobile computing."

    From a recent C|Net interview The Best Idea Jeff Hawkins Ever Had:

    Look, there's a lot of people that would love to have something like this as their main personal computer. There's no doubt about it.

    It's simple. It's small. It's fast. It's solid state. It's easy to use. Instant on and off. It's easy. I am always trying to create a better personal computer. You have to have a two-stage strategy to get to go where you want to go. You have to find that initial customer....

    ....And the Foleo is going to be a lot more than an e-mail smart-phone companion.
    So the ultimate goal of the Foleo isn't to be a simple email terminal, that looks like a laptop, but rather it will evolve into an ultra-portable personal computer that is instant on, low power, low cost, low complexity but offers functionality to meet the 80/20 rule, that doesn't run Windows software.

    Brian
    Last edited by ballistic; 06/03/2007 at 06:33 PM.
  2. #2  
    Wow. Yet another thread to spin this...
    MaxiMunK.com The Forum That Asks, "Are You Not Entertained?"

    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
  3. #3  
    In fairness, even though I use Windows I think it is a horrible "mobile" solution for laptops.

    It is clumsy and bloated. I hate every time getting my automatic updates and having to reboot. I hate the CPU requirements, the heat, the noise, poor battery life. The instant on is anything but.

    I basically need a wireless mouse if I actually want to be productive. Then you have your normal MS "maintenance" (cleaning, defragging, A/V). Coupled with the fact I don't need probably 70% of what the OS can do on the go (I even use my own "slipstreamed OS combos or use XP lite to rip out some of the guts, it's better but seriously...should I have to do that?)

    It's just a bad idea to take a desktop OS and just throw into a laptop and without changing much.

    Although the Foleo is not that original, leaves a lot to be desired, certainly felt over-hyped (or at least our expectations were higher), I still would like something that simple and...to the point.

    Which is exactly what a MS laptop is not.

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  4. #4  
    We think these gadgets should be simple, but they are just complex enough to mess up as much as desktop OS's, especially with being less mature. Laptops have automatic update, in embedded devices we wait a year for ANY update. Laptops have virus issues due to malicious software, embedded devices do not have much software at all. Handhelds have a UI optimized for small devices (the Foleo doesn't of course) but our work is often optimized for the power of a bigger device (e.g. spreadsheets).

    Hawkins talks about the 80/20 rule, but in this case he is the one addressing the 20% corner cases with a very non-mainstream solution.

    Surur
  5.    #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    Hawkins talks about the 80/20 rule, but in this case he is the one addressing the 20% corner cases with a very non-mainstream solution.

    Surur
    You're conveniently ignoring the "Over time, it is going to become more."

    Disruptive ideas are rarely ever mainstream at first.
  6. #6  
    What does "solid state" mean?

    Solid as in solid stool movements?
  7. #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by ballistic View Post
    You're conveniently ignoring the "Over time, it is going to become more."

    Disruptive ideas are rarely ever mainstream at first.
    This is because 1) Palm has, with the LifeDrive, shown they do not necessarily persist with initially unsuccessful products and 2) Even if they intend to forge ahead, without a flagship product there is no guarantee they will be around to fulfill their ambitions and 3) the device this will ultimately grow into already exists, and is called a laptop.

    Surur
  8.    #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    This is because 1) Palm has, with the LifeDrive, shown they do not necessarily persist with initially unsuccessful products and 2) Even if they intend to forge ahead, without a flagship product there is no guarantee they will be around to fulfill their ambitions and 3) the device this will ultimately grow into already exists, and is called a laptop.

    Surur
    1. If the Foleo is proven unsuccessful, then you will have a point.

    2. They have a flagship product, it's called the Treo, because of which they've been profitable for 14 consecutive quarters and are sitting on north of $300 Million in cash.

    3. You're completely missing or ignoring the point of my initial post. Those laptops don't run Palm's OS, most of them run Windows.
    Last edited by ballistic; 06/03/2007 at 07:30 PM.
  9. #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by ballistic View Post
    1. When the Foleo is proven unsuccessful, you will have a point.

    2. They have a flagship product, it's called the Treo, because of which they've been profitable for 14 consecutive quarters and are sitting on north of $300 Million in cash.

    3. You're completely missing or ignoring the point of my initial post. Those laptops don't run Palm's OS, most of them run Windows.
    1. The Foleo will probably sell less than even the LifeDrive, as the Foleo is even more niche.

    2. The Treo is under increasing attack, and the smartphone business is growing at a slower pace than the rest of the market. The stock price (except for buy out inflation) reflects the markets expectation of Palm's future earnings. Compare this with RIM for example. The Treo line is not healthy.

    3. The Foleo runs Linux, a desktop OS like Windows. It has no touch screen and a mouse. If you mean "will evolve into an ultra-portable personal computer that is instant on, low power, low cost, low complexity" we already know there is nothing there which the desktop OS's cant do, and that this area is already under fire by the likes of Microsoft and Intel, with their various UMPC-like ambitions.

    Surur
  10. #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    This is because 1) Palm has, with the LifeDrive, shown they do not necessarily persist with initially unsuccessful products...
    The market changed. Given the falling cost of flash, there was no future for mini hard-drives. Do you think Apple should have continued selling the iPod mini?
  11. #11  
    When the iPod came out didnt they say "who would buy that? We already have walkmans"
  12. #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by samkim View Post
    The market changed. Given the falling cost of flash, there was no future for mini hard-drives. Do you think Apple should have continued selling the iPod mini?
    Should they not have released the LifeDrive II, thinner, lighter, with 8 GB flash? Thats what usually happens when technology evolves.

    Or do you think Palm should cancel the Foleo when flexible OLED screens become commercial next year?

    Surur
  13. #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    Should they not have released the LifeDrive II, thinner, lighter, with 8 GB flash? Thats what usually happens when technology evolves.

    Or do you think Palm should cancel the Foleo when flexible OLED screens become commercial next year?

    Surur
    Come on. Would you have released the LifeDrive II? The line had no future.

    The LifeDrive was a PDA with a hard drive. Replace the hard drive with flash, and you have a PDA. An extremely high-end PDA. That's a niche within a dying niche.

    The only unique feature was as a temporary storage for pictures. But no one needs a device to do that in a future with cheap 8 GB sd cards.
  14. #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by samkim View Post
    Come on. Would you have released the LifeDrive II? The line had no future.

    The LifeDrive was a PDA with a hard drive. Replace the hard drive with flash, and you have a PDA. An extremely high-end PDA. That's a niche within a dying niche.

    The only unique feature was as a temporary storage for pictures. But no one needs a device to do that in a future with cheap 8 GB sd cards.
    There is one company making PDA's who is still seeing increasing shipments and market share, and its name is Mitac Mio. Its now the third place PDA seller, and it achieved this position due to the features of its device, primarily the GPS built-in.

    The LifeDrive failed due to using old technology in an expensive, bulky form factor. If it was made better is would have done better. Its contemporaries with CF slots were smaller and slimmer, and had removable batteries and features like USB-Host and VGA out. And what exactly were they thinking when they decided to use the hard drive as NVFS memory? Where was the camera companion which would have actually made it useful as a picture dump?

    The problem with Palm is that they release half-assed products at premium prices, and then act surprised when the market does not eat it up. They blame the failure of their products on the market, when they do nothing themselves to remedy the problem.

    The Foleo will fail, not only due to the concept, but also due to the execution. It should have been much thinner and lighter, and cheaper too. Instead they use old components (e.g. stringing together Treo 755p batteries, WIFI B, trackpoints) and try to sell it at the same price of a full sized laptop with a larger (more expensive) screen , optical drives, bigger batteries, newer wireless technologies and an OS they have to pay for. They do not have enough loyal fans to support this nonsense anymore.

    Surur
  15. #15  
    So, the Foleo + Smartphone (All) + Google Apps (on & off line) - should make for a pretty good travel system.

    Maybe just a good system?
    RJuhl
  16. tirk's Avatar
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    #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by rjuhl View Post
    So, the Foleo + Smartphone (All) + Google Apps (on & off line) - should make for a pretty good travel system.

    Maybe just a good system?
    Assuming Google Apps will run on the Foleo, which is a big assumption.
    PalmPilot Professional...Palm Vx...Treo 600...Treo 680...HTC Touch HD...iPhone 4S...
  17. #17  
    Relying on Google for GPS seems rather unwise to me. What if you are driving in a long tunnel, or into the country side with poor phone and data coverage? Sounds like a good way to get lost.

    And ironically the Foleo is probably too big to dashboard mount...

    Surur
  18. #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    There is one company making PDA's who is still seeing increasing shipments and market share, and its name is Mitac Mio. Its now the third place PDA seller, and it achieved this position due to the features of its device, primarily the GPS built-in.

    The LifeDrive failed due to using old technology in an expensive, bulky form factor. If it was made better is would have done better. Its contemporaries with CF slots were smaller and slimmer, and had removable batteries and features like USB-Host and VGA out. And what exactly were they thinking when they decided to use the hard drive as NVFS memory? Where was the camera companion which would have actually made it useful as a picture dump?

    The problem with Palm is that they release half-assed products at premium prices, and then act surprised when the market does not eat it up. They blame the failure of their products on the market, when they do nothing themselves to remedy the problem.

    The Foleo will fail, not only due to the concept, but also due to the execution. It should have been much thinner and lighter, and cheaper too. Instead they use old components (e.g. stringing together Treo 755p batteries, WIFI B, trackpoints) and try to sell it at the same price of a full sized laptop with a larger (more expensive) screen , optical drives, bigger batteries, newer wireless technologies and an OS they have to pay for. They do not have enough loyal fans to support this nonsense anymore.

    Surur
    The Mio is a GPS device with PIM functionality. The fact that they're growing doesn't mean the PDA market isn't shrinking. As you know well, it's just a function of a nonsensical definition of PDA.

    As for the LifeDrive's "comtemporaries," what products are you talking about? Have they succeeded in the marketplace?

    Re the Foleo, I don't think its success will depend on Palm's fans. It'll depend on the need for such a device among traveling execs.
  19. cgk
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    #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by samkim View Post

    Re the Foleo, I don't think its success will depend on Palm's fans. It'll depend on the need for such a device among traveling execs.
    we can go around and around in circles on this one but my *gut* (and that's all it is) tells me that this is not going to see significant pentration into any exec marketplace - because if they want a sub-notebook, the cost implications are not as prohibitive as they are for other groups. As for Palm fans - I don't see that much of an appeal, they have bought into the idea that one device is all you need so I don't see much of a takeup there.
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    #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    Relying on Google for GPS seems rather unwise to me. What if you are driving in a long tunnel, or into the country side with poor phone and data coverage? Sounds like a good way to get lost.

    And ironically the Foleo is probably too big to dashboard mount...

    Surur
    Since when did anyone decide to mount the Folio on the dash? We have TomTom on our Treo's for navigation. You seem to argue for arguments sake.
    Waiting for Palm Pre on AT&T then can replace my iPhone. Needs Doc To Go and Flash

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