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  1. Haggar's Avatar
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    #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    What about the recently released very mediocre Treo 755p?

    Surur
    Um...Garnet? It's not the NEXT generation. The supposed LinuxOS Palm. That's the next gen IMO. There may even be a couple of clunkers left to come out of the gate before fall that still run WM or POS....I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that they are simply end-of-lifing their "old" products in a way that makes carriers happy.

    I am very disappointed with the Foleo. It's garbage as far as I'm concerned. But it's also a product I have no interest in. The next generation Treo is what I'm keeping my eye on. If they "f" that up (which I honestly think they will do given their track record) they are toast. Okay...they are really really really black toast as opposed to the dark brown toast they currently are...
    Luminary? You've got to be kidding!
  2. #22  
    c'mon Surur...

    That's TC's paraphrasing/re-wording not a direct quote from Palm or Hawkins. It kind of backs up my point that the "community" built this up more than Palm did.

    (not that it justifies the Foleo either, I'm just trying to point out that pent up expectations, with people fiddling through thousands of patents and wild, geeky imaginations can lead to some fanciful ideas that are not met)

    WMExperts: News, Reviews & Podcasts + Twitter
  3.    #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by Haggar View Post
    ... Once Palm unveils the next TREO we can all ***** and moan about how they missed the mark...but that's not a fair criticism at this point..... If the next Treo sucks, then we can add that gripe back into the list of Foleo gripes.

    LOL !... I do agree with your point about the foleo (not quoted here).... but I hope the next Treo is not yet another thing we should look forward to bashing! But...funny perspective you have..lol.... at least you are setting yourself up for less disapointment - I think I will join you!


    DISAPPOINTED TREO USERS
    The issue Treo/Palm users can reasonably have about the Foleo (in terms of how it affects them directly) is that, using their resources or hedging there bets on a product line which many seem to feel has little utility could end up killing palm and ending the Treo product line. (dramatic I know)

    FOLEO "USE"
    As for "the postive" of the Foleo - I can concede that in some way, there are a very specific group set under very specific circumstances that may find the Foleo to be of use. Those that express there opinion about it's utility to them are giving their perspective, although it definitely is not the majority.

    I still have to believe there is "something more" to this Foleo that has not been unveiled to us yet or a missing piece of the puzzle - at least I hope.
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    c'mon Surur...

    That's TC's paraphrasing/re-wording not a direct quote from Palm or Hawkins. It kind of backs up my point that the "community" built this up more than Palm did.
    Its from an interview here...

    Hawkins could not leave without a tease, and so he explained how the the original Palm and the Treo were revolutionary devices, and how everything else released by Palm were sustaining devices. Now, he claims that Palm is working on a 3rd revolutionary device that will keep the company going over the next half decade. Lastly, the Windows Mobile Treo is not the only device Palm will announce this year, and I quote "We'll be announcing more products before the years end".
    http://www.treocentral.com/content/Stories/689-1.htm

    ... and its meant to be a paraphrasing of his words.


    I am sure TC did not insert the word "revolutionary" themselves.

    Surur
  5. ttcoupe's Avatar
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    #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kupe View Post
    Bingo! You get it now. In spite of your attempts to explain the "revolutionariness" of the Foleo, Palm's product is completely lost on the vast majority of the folks exposed to it. Folks, mind you, that wanted to believe. Folks that had a penchant to go with whatever Palm says is good. Sorry, even your eloquent explanations of this device are still found wanting - it's been done before, and it's not revolutionary. Time will tell if it's even useful.
    I agree that the "revolutionariness" is lost on the vast majority of the folks. One reason is that Palm probably can not advertise some elements of it yet, like the possible software compatibility to a smartphone.

    Therefore I have tried to tell that if such compatibility exists (as I believe) then it would be quite revolutionary.

    Tell me who has done such thing before? A full keyboard computer that is software compatible with a smartphone.
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    Its from an interview here...


    http://www.treocentral.com/content/Stories/689-1.htm

    ... and its meant to be a paraphrasing of his words.


    I am sure TC did not insert the word "revolutionary" themselves.

    Surur
    Even still, that is one source on TC which is not a direct quote (though lets assume it's his words).

    I still stick by the notion that it was the community, not Palm that really hyped up this device with wild and crazy ideas. Palm was mute 99% of the time on the matter, which let people fantasize endlessly.

    I'm not trying to let Palm off the hook necessarily, but lets be honest here. They hype was created mostly by users here and other tech sites.

    And to the Palm Treo people who are disappointed, I'll just say that's reflects the PalmOS version, not the WM5 devices, which I still maintain are some of the best ones out on the market.

    WMExperts: News, Reviews & Podcasts + Twitter
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    Even still, that is one source on TC which is not a direct quote (though lets assume it's his words).

    I still stick by the notion that it was the community, not Palm that really hyped up this device with wild and crazy ideas. Palm was mute 99% of the time on the matter, which let people fantasize endlessly.

    I'm not trying to let Palm off the hook necessarily, but lets be honest here. They hype was created mostly by users here and other tech sites.

    And to the Palm Treo people who are disappointed, I'll just say that's reflects the PalmOS version, not the WM5 devices, which I still maintain are some of the best ones out on the market.
    The device was hyped because the rest of Palm's line up has been so disappointing with regard to technological advancement. People wanted to believe Palm still had it in them to be cutting edge and great. It was like "dont worry that the latest Treo is just the old Treo in a new case, the Foleo will save Palm from extinction from the IPhone etc".

    Its now clear the Foleo is more likely to drag Palm down that acts as a life raft.

    Surur
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    The device was hyped because the rest of Palm's line up has been so disappointing with regard to technological advancement. People wanted to believe Palm still had it in them to be cutting edge and great. It was like "dont worry that the latest Treo is just the old Treo in a new case, the Foleo will save Palm from extinction from the IPhone etc".

    Its now clear the Foleo is more likely to drag Palm down that acts as a life raft.

    Surur
    Well now we're moving from the level of hype and who created it to motivations for it, which is a different argument all together.

    The made up quote above is also noteworthy because yes, there were some posters at TC who said that but all-in-all that is still hype from below, not from above e.g. Palm. Like I said, not knowing what it was let people decide for themselves, making it the ultimate fantasy device. Palm never said this will "save them".

    I'm not sure the Foleo will drag them down as it sounds more an experimental project for Palm than a full investment. Hawkins doesn't seem to thinking this will be the iPhone, but rather a starter project. Where it goes will depend on developers and consumers.

    WMExperts: News, Reviews & Podcasts + Twitter
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    I'm not sure the Foleo will drag them down as it sounds more an experimental project for Palm than a full investment. Hawkins doesn't seem to thinking this will be the iPhone, but rather a starter project. Where it goes will depend on developers and consumers.
    Palm is actually in quite a bit of trouble, and this is reflected in their stock price. Their product has been commoditized, and they never achieved a high enough market share to survive this. They are growing much slower than the smartphone market, and their latest products are provoking an increasing number of yawns. Analysts are calling for the company to be sold, and this has been the only prospect which has been boosting the share price from a 52 week low of 13.44 in January this year to a 52 week high of 19.5 only a few weeks later in April 2007.

    The Foleo was supposed to change all of this, by advancing Palm into a new business area which will bring vitality and high growth back into the company. By making a niche in a niche device Palm has failed miserably, and its quite possible their stock price could tank back into the 13's again over the next few weeks. Palm is increasingly looking like a one-trick pony, and worse of all everyone else is learning the trick too.

    In short, yes, the failure of their 3rd business, especially if it tarnishes the image of the rest of its products (Palm is a laughing stock because of it already) can certainly kill Palm.

    Surur
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by ttcoupe View Post
    I agree that the "revolutionariness" is lost on the vast majority of the folks. One reason is that Palm probably can not advertise some elements of it yet, like the possible software compatibility to a smartphone.

    Therefore I have tried to tell that if such compatibility exists (as I believe) then it would be quite revolutionary.

    Tell me who has done such thing before? A full keyboard computer that is software compatible with a smartphone.
    So the only thing that you can come up with that's actually positive about this thing is some concept of "Software Compatibility" that Palm hasn't even announced in any way, shape or form as a feature of this device? Even if eventually this thing is in the market with a Treo running the same OS, what does that do for you? How does having Software Compatibility set it apart in the market? What about this much toted (by only you) Software Compatibility makes it a killer must-have app? What keeps users from just getting a laptop and using the software that's streamlined and designed specifically for it, and then using different software that's streamlined and designed specifically for the Treo? Who's going to write or port software to this anyway when you can already do the same things with a laptop?
    Visor Edge + VisorPhone -> Samsung i300 -> Treo 300 -> Treo 600 -> Treo 700p -> Treo 755
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    Palm is actually in quite a bit of trouble, and this is reflected in their stock price. Their product has been commoditized, and they never achieved a high enough market share to survive this. They are growing much slower than the smartphone market, and their latest products are provoking an increasing number of yawns. Analysts are calling for the company to be sold, and this has been the only prospect which has been boosting the share price from a 52 week low of 13.44 in January this year to a 52 week high of 19.5 only a few weeks later in April 2007.
    And its back down to 16. Its stock price had been down to the low teens because its earnings fell below expectations.

    Regardless of marketshare (based on any arbitrary definition of the smartphone market), they're still profitable.

    The Foleo was supposed to change all of this, by advancing Palm into a new business area which will bring vitality and high growth back into the company. By making a niche in a niche device Palm has failed miserably, and its quite possible their stock price could tank back into the 13's again over the next few weeks. Palm is increasingly looking like a one-trick pony, and worse of all everyone else is learning the trick too.

    In short, yes, the failure of their 3rd business, especially if it tarnishes the image of the rest of its products (Palm is a laughing stock because of it already) can certainly kill Palm.

    Surur
    Palm is sitting on $500 million in cash and investments, and it has zero long-term debt. Its R&D is $50 million per quarter. The Foleo is not going to kill the company.

    The only thing that will kill Palm is if Treo sales tank. After a dip last year, sales are strong again. Future revenues will depend entirely on Palm's ability to transition to a modern OS over the next year and not at all on the success of the Foleo.
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by samkim View Post
    And its back down to 16. Its stock price had been down to the low teens because its earnings fell below expectations.

    Regardless of marketshare (based on any arbitrary definition of the smartphone market), they're still profitable.
    Its now pretty clear Palm has been cannibalizing its R&D budget and also market share to maintain that profitability. They are making extremely cheap, under-featured devices (in terms of technology costs, not finish) while still trying to sell them at premium prices. They may be profitable, but due to their underwhelming phones they are bleeding market share.

    Palm is sitting on $500 million in cash and investments, and it has zero long-term debt. Its R&D is $50 million per quarter. The Foleo is not going to kill the company.
    Possibly true, but sitting on such a huge pile of money, while devaluing the company by making unmarketable products places the company at great risk of hostile take over. Already most share holders are banking on a buy out by another big company, but even a LBO could be on the cards if the stock continues to tank.

    The only thing that will kill Palm is if Treo sales tank. After a dip last year, sales are strong again. Future revenues will depend entirely on Palm's ability to transition to a modern OS over the next year and not at all on the success of the Foleo.
    To repeat one of Hengeem's favourite lines - Competition! As I said above, the smartphone is being commoditized, Palm's very lifeblood is under attack, and the Foleo is doing nothing to help.

    It does not look good.

    Surur
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    To repeat one of Hengeem's favourite lines - Competition! As I said above, the smartphone is being commoditized, Palm's very lifeblood is under attack, and the Foleo is doing nothing to help.

    It does not look good.

    Surur
    There's certainly plenty of competition, but it's not being commoditized. There's a lot of differentiation between platforms and products, IMO.

    As for the outlook, it depends on how the developer community reacts to the Foleo, and how Palm does with the next generation Treos. There's hope.
  14. ttcoupe's Avatar
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    #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by CountBuggula View Post
    So the only thing that you can come up with that's actually positive about this thing is some concept of "Software Compatibility" that Palm hasn't even announced in any way, shape or form as a feature of this device?
    I did not "come up with" that concept because of Foleo. I have wanted that for a long time. Now Palm might make it happen and I am somewhat excited. BTW, my initial reaction to Foleo was a huge disappointment, because I too had expected something completely different. Then I tried to understand what Jeff sees in this and saw how the size of the thing is exactly right (for a mobile companion) and how it probably will have this software compatibility that I want.

    Quote Originally Posted by CountBuggula View Post
    Even if eventually this thing is in the market with a Treo running the same OS, what does that do for you? How does having Software Compatibility set it apart in the market? What about this much toted (by only you) Software Compatibility makes it a killer must-have app?
    Several reasons:
    - User point of view: you don't need to wait for software versions to be released to the other. If a piece of software is released to one, it works on the other.
    - Developer point of view: One SDK allows you to release applications to a broader platform. This equates to cost savings and scale advantages.

    Microsoft and Intel have had much success in the x86-platform. One reason for this success is the wide software compatibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by CountBuggula View Post
    What keeps users from just getting a laptop and using the software that's streamlined and designed specifically for it, and then using different software that's streamlined and designed specifically for the Treo? Who's going to write or port software to this anyway when you can already do the same things with a laptop?
    It is possible that this product is a failure. I am not making predictions of it's commercial success. I am just bringing up that in a certain sense it is a new kind of mobile product category and that there are ideas behind it that I like.
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