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  1. #101  
    Quote Originally Posted by ttcoupe View Post
    Calm down. What I am saying is true. If you halve the amount of RAM, the computer gets slower because it has to swap more.

    If the swapping process is faster, you can somewhat compensate that.
    Sure you can compensate a little, but these SSD do not provide as fast storage as main RAM because of the bandwidth bottleneck of the bus they connect to. They would still provide a performance increase over placing the swap file on a traditional hard disk drive, but not nearly as much as increasing RAM.
    Visor Edge + VisorPhone -> Samsung i300 -> Treo 300 -> Treo 600 -> Treo 700p -> Treo 755
  2. #102  
    Quote Originally Posted by samkim View Post
    Sounds like you need a Foleo.
    ROFL. Best post of the day, period.
    Visor Edge + VisorPhone -> Samsung i300 -> Treo 300 -> Treo 600 -> Treo 700p -> Treo 755
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    #103  
    Quote Originally Posted by samkim View Post
    Sounds like you need a Foleo.
    My other machine is a desktop. But you are right, I need something else besides this pocketable smartphone, the Foleo is based on that same assumption. Palm believes that mobility is important and therefore Foleo instead of a larger laptop or a desktop.
  4. #104  
    Quote Originally Posted by CountBuggula View Post
    AAAAAAARRGH!!!! This guy is driving me nuts! Please pick up a copy of PC's for dummies before posting back here again!


    Storage and RAM on a PC are not the same thing and they are NOT interchangeable. You cannot get a bigger hard drive and expect that you can just use that instead of memory. You cannot use a solid state drive instead of RAM. "Virtual Memory" made by using hard drive or SSD storage cannot replace RAM completely.

    The logic you're using is so completely flawed it makes my brain hurt.
    People who do not know their RAM from their Flash is the target market for the Foleo.

    Surur
  5. #105  
    I can't believe how off topic we've gotten this. The point remains that you assume we can use expandable flash memory on the Treo as a swap drive. You can't do it with any current model, so the whole point is moot. We need much more internal memory on smartphones before what you're wanting to do with sharing programs between them and the Foleo will work.
    Visor Edge + VisorPhone -> Samsung i300 -> Treo 300 -> Treo 600 -> Treo 700p -> Treo 755
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    #106  
    Quote Originally Posted by CountBuggula View Post
    Sure you can compensate a little, but these SSD do not provide as fast storage as main RAM because of the bandwidth bottleneck of the bus they connect to. They would still provide a performance increase over placing the swap file on a traditional hard disk drive, but not nearly as much as increasing RAM.
    That is what I have been saying. An SSD is faster than a HDD. Therefore you don't necessarily need quite as much RAM.
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    #107  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    People who do not know their RAM from their Flash is the target market for the Foleo.
    You are sickly twisting other people's words. I have said nothing like that.
  8. #108  
    Quote Originally Posted by ttcoupe View Post
    That is what I have been saying. An SSD is faster than a HDD. Therefore you don't necessarily need quite as much RAM.
    Did you actually read what I said? You missed the whole point. Yes, a swap file on an SSD is faster than a swap file on a regular Hard Drive.

    No, it is not fast enough to make up for the lack of RAM due to the bottleneck and slower and higher latancy data access rates you get with IDE or SATA. You cannot in a machine with 512MB RAM expect to get anywhere near the performance you'd get with 1GB RAM by putting a 512MB (or even larger) Swap file on a SSD, even if it's a DDR SSD. By using a Flash based SSD your performance will be much worse.
    Visor Edge + VisorPhone -> Samsung i300 -> Treo 300 -> Treo 600 -> Treo 700p -> Treo 755
  9. #109  
    Quote Originally Posted by ttcoupe View Post
    You are sickly twisting other people's words. I have said nothing like that.
    No, I am saying it.

    That is what I have been saying. An SSD is faster than a HDD. Therefore you don't necessarily need quite as much RAM.
    Anytime you use virtual memory as slow as a SSD OR HDD you are likely to have a slow device subject to spinning beach balls or hour glasses of some type. Is that the Palm Foleo experience you are looking forward to?

    Or are you claiming you can use SSD virtual memory without a penalty in speed? If so, you are really going to need a reference...

    Surur
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    #110  
    Quote Originally Posted by CountBuggula View Post
    Did you actually read what I said? You missed the whole point. Yes, a swap file on an SSD is faster than a swap file on a regular Hard Drive.

    No, it is not fast enough to make up for the lack of RAM due to the bottleneck and slower and higher latancy data access rates you get with IDE or SATA. You cannot in a machine with 512MB RAM expect to get anywhere near the performance you'd get with 1GB RAM by putting a 512MB (or even larger) Swap file on a SSD, even if it's a DDR SSD. By using a Flash based SSD your performance will be much worse.
    Let's agree that we agree. There is some performance advantage in SSDs vs. HDDs as reported by the tech media. In some situations like booting, the advantage in quite large. So some small reduction in RAM would be possible without a big performance drop. Ok?
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    #111  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    Or are you claiming you can use SSD virtual memory without a penalty in speed?
    Of course not. I just said that SSD provides some performance advantage compared to a HDD when someone required one GB or RAM from a smartphone.
  12. #112  
    Quote Originally Posted by ttcoupe View Post
    That is what I have been saying. An SSD is faster than a HDD. Therefore you don't necessarily need quite as much RAM.
    Here's another way to put it. Go build a PC with 64 MB of RAM (you said you don't need as much right?) and put in a 20GB DRAM SSD to use as your Hard Drive and Swap for Virtual Memory. Use a few gigs of that for your swap space. Try to install Windows Vista and tell me how it works out for you.


    Why are you even arguing this?

    Let's see, where did this start? You wanted to run the same programs on your Treo as you do on the Foleo, and that by clever programming you could make the same program behave differently on the larger device (more room for more functionality) than on the smartphone. Fine.

    I said in order for that to work we need to start seeing more powerful smartphones with more than 128MB RAM built in.

    You claim that's not an issue because flash storage can be used as a swap file to make up for lack of RAM.

    That'd be nice, only YOU CAN'T DO THAT ON ANY TREO ON THE MARKET TODAY. End of argument.
    Visor Edge + VisorPhone -> Samsung i300 -> Treo 300 -> Treo 600 -> Treo 700p -> Treo 755
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    #113  
    Quote Originally Posted by CountBuggula View Post
    YOU CAN'T DO THAT ON ANY TREO ON THE MARKET TODAY
    All my claims are centered on the compatibility between Foleo and future Treos. So why are you wasting our time with sentences like that?
  14. #114  
    So you want to use a swap file on smartphone? For a device that should have be a real time OS that sounds far from ideal. Will your call hang on while the phone app is fetched from flash?

    Surur
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    #115  
    Real time -operations don't need much RAM. Have you noticed that your phone works with it's current amount of RAM?

    The original proposition was that in the future there will be plenty of memory and processing power available in a smartphone size. I stand by that claim no matter what.
  16. #116  
    Quote Originally Posted by ttcoupe View Post
    Real time -operations don't need much RAM. Have you noticed that your phone works with it's current amount of RAM?

    The original proposition was that in the future there will be plenty of memory and processing power available in a smartphone size. I stand by that claim no matter what.
    Unfortunately the evidence is opposite. Windows Mobile devices have seen processor speeds and DRAM amounts going down over the last few years, as the OS have become more efficient. Many many WM phones are now 200 MHz, and the vast majority (except the very high end) have only 64 MB DRAM. The 700w only had 32 MB. Because batteries have not heard about Moore's law, all efforts to improve the user experience have focused on doing more with less, not increasing the specs of devices.

    The fastest ARM chip currently is 866 MHz. There is no phone running that chip, and there wont be for a long time.

    Surur
  17. #117  
    Quote Originally Posted by ttcoupe View Post
    Real time -operations don't need much RAM. Have you noticed that your phone works with it's current amount of RAM?

    The original proposition was that in the future there will be plenty of memory and processing power available in a smartphone size. I stand by that claim no matter what.
    Wrong again. Why would there be a need for memory managers like UDMH if there was enough RAM as is? If you want more examples of current Palm Programs that have a hard time with the amount of RAM we have to work with just check out this forum. Some of those programs won't run at all on half of the Palm devices on the market right now because they have too little RAM, even with UDMH enabled.

    There is a need for more powerful smartphones today, and current programs are crippled because of the lack of growth and innovation in the Treo hardware in the last several years.
    Visor Edge + VisorPhone -> Samsung i300 -> Treo 300 -> Treo 600 -> Treo 700p -> Treo 755
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    #118  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    Because batteries have not heard about Moore's law, all efforts to improve the user experience have focused on doing more with less, not increasing the specs of devices.
    I will tell you something about Moore's law. There are many versions of it, but essentially they say that transistor count increases exponentially. Moore's law does not explicitly say anything about power consumption, but in practise that has happened WITHOUT an exponential growth in power consumption.

    Now Intel and others have made the sane conclusion that we don't need much more processing power. Instead, they will focus on minimizing the power consumption. Taken literally, if they focus on that, the power consumption (of a desktop CPU) goes down fast while the processing power only goes up slowly. Therefore the current desktop CPU power will soon be available in smartphones. (Of course we will use low-voltage, low clock-speed versions that are optimized for smartphones, not the desktop CPUs.)

    So every year it is possible to make faster chips with the same or lower power consumption. Batteries do improve slowly, but this mainly increases operating times as we can not produce too much heat from a smartphone CPU.
  19. #119  
    Quote Originally Posted by ttcoupe View Post
    I will tell you something about Moore's law. There are many versions of it, but essentially they say that transistor count increases exponentially. Moore's law does not explicitly say anything about power consumption, but in practise that has happened WITHOUT an exponential growth in power consumption.

    Now Intel and others have made the sane conclusion that we don't need much more processing power. Instead, they will focus on minimizing the power consumption. Taken literally, if they focus on that, the power consumption (of a desktop CPU) goes down fast while the processing power only goes up slowly. Therefore the current desktop CPU power will soon be available in smartphones. (Of course we will use low-voltage, low clock-speed versions that are optimized for smartphones, not the desktop CPUs.)

    So every year it is possible to make faster chips with the same or lower power consumption. Batteries do improve slowly, but this mainly increases operating times as we can not produce too much heat from a smartphone CPU.
    Try telling that to Palm. We haven't seen a clock speed improvement in the Treo line since the 600 to 650.
    Visor Edge + VisorPhone -> Samsung i300 -> Treo 300 -> Treo 600 -> Treo 700p -> Treo 755
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    #120  
    Quote Originally Posted by CountBuggula View Post
    Try telling that to Palm. We haven't seen a clock speed improvement in the Treo line since the 600 to 650.
    Intel just last year made the announcement about concentrating more to minimize power consumption. Maybe the benefits of that effort have not reached us yet?

    If you believe in the principles of Moore's law, then you must agree that either smartphone power consumption goes down or transistor count (which often equals processing power) goes up.

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