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  1. ttcoupe's Avatar
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    #81  
    Solid state drives are very fast and swapping to such can be very fast. Therefore the amount of RAM does not matter as much.

    You are talking about spinning hard drive systems that Palm does not make and will never make. Such systems are about to go obsolete.
  2. #82  
    Quote Originally Posted by ttcoupe View Post
    Solid state drives are very fast and swapping to such can be very fast. Therefore the amount of RAM does not matter as much.

    You are talking about spinning hard drive systems that Palm does not make and will never make. Such systems are about to go obsolete.
    Huh? What are you talking about? Are we speaking the same language?
    Visor Edge + VisorPhone -> Samsung i300 -> Treo 300 -> Treo 600 -> Treo 700p -> Treo 755
  3. naivete's Avatar
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    #83  
    Disappointed. I was expecting something that hasn't existed in the marketplace already. As much as they want to create a new category with Foleo like they tried to do with LifeDrive, the media will just shove this device into the UMPC category. Once the Foleo is stacked up against other UMPC's like OQO, UX, and others, the Foleo will come up short. This will not bode well for Palm.

    No offense to Jeff Hawkins, but Palm needs to stop relying on him as their sole R&D guy. The company needs spread its risks by putting less emphasis on him and put more muscle into its R&D, so that when a new product fails, another is put on the radar screen. Just my 2 cents.

    I hope someone from Palm's executive team is reading this.
  4. ttcoupe's Avatar
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    #84  
    Quote Originally Posted by CountBuggula View Post
    Huh? What are you talking about? Are we speaking the same language?
    You required a gigabyte of memory from your smartphone. I assumed you did not mean flash storage since a GB of flash costs 15 dollars in your local shop. Remember, the Foleo already has an internal CF slot so you can easily add that.

    So I assumed you meant a GB of RAM. A computer that swaps memory to a flash drive does not need a GB of RAM to work fast because swapping is so fast.
  5. #85  
    Quote Originally Posted by ttcoupe View Post
    You required a gigabyte of memory from your smartphone. I assumed you did not mean flash storage since a GB of flash costs 15 dollars in your local shop. Remember, the Foleo already has an internal CF slot so you can easily add that.

    So I assumed you meant a GB of RAM. A computer that swaps memory to a flash drive does not need a GB of RAM to work fast because swapping is so fast.
    Actually flash has really slow read speeds, especially compared to a HDD. Its the seek times which are a lot less.

    Surur
  6. ttcoupe's Avatar
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    #86  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    Actually flash has really slow read speeds, especially compared to a HDD.
    Old information.
  7. #87  
    Quote Originally Posted by ttcoupe View Post
    Old information.
    At fastest, its only as fast as a HDD. Whats your reference. Also, do you actually imagine Palm will use cutting edge components, or ones from two years ago. Example - WIFI B in the Foleo.

    Surur
  8. ttcoupe's Avatar
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    #88  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    At fastest, its only as fast as a HDD.
    As fast transfer plus faster access means that it is faster overall. Every blog has reported computers to get faster when SSD was added.

    Your information about "really slow read speeds" was old information.
  9. #89  
    Quote Originally Posted by ttcoupe View Post
    You required a gigabyte of memory from your smartphone. I assumed you did not mean flash storage since a GB of flash costs 15 dollars in your local shop. Remember, the Foleo already has an internal CF slot so you can easily add that.

    So I assumed you meant a GB of RAM. A computer that swaps memory to a flash drive does not need a GB of RAM to work fast because swapping is so fast.
    If you want crazy slow performance you can swap to a flash drive or use an external storage device, but I'm talking about usable RAM. DBCache in current iterations of the Treo. Real, usable for programs RAM. I would even be happy with 512mb flash memory for storage and 512 for usable program memory at this point. Like you said, a GB of flash costs 15 dollars, so it's inexcusable that Palm is still putting 128MB or less in their products. Expansion memory like on SD or CF doesn't allow you to run bigger and more complex programs, it just lets you store more of them.

    Either way current Treos cannot use external SD storage as swap space. Even if they could it would be so slow that it would be unusable. The best you can do currently is use UDMH to use more of the internal flash (storage) memory to increase the size of the DBCache. You're still talking about hypothetical technology in your argument as if it's in current phones.
    Visor Edge + VisorPhone -> Samsung i300 -> Treo 300 -> Treo 600 -> Treo 700p -> Treo 755
  10. #90  
    Quote Originally Posted by ttcoupe View Post
    As fast transfer plus faster access means that it is faster overall. Every blog has reported computers to get faster when SSD was added.

    Your information about "really slow read speeds" was old information.
    This still makes it very much slower than DRAM, and does not mean you can substitute real RAM for flash, as was your original premise.

    Surur
  11. #91  
    Quote Originally Posted by ttcoupe View Post
    As fast transfer plus faster access means that it is faster overall. Every blog has reported computers to get faster when SSD was added.

    Your information about "really slow read speeds" was old information.
    Sorry you're talking about two completely different things. Those solid state drives you're referring to are pseudo hard drives made of several sticks of real dynamic RAM. They require a constant power source to keep their memory, and clear whatever storage they have when power is cut. That and they cost 10-20 times as much as a normal hard drive. Yes they can get marginal increases in performance but most analysts agree that doesn't outweigh the price and risk of data lost.

    Flash memory is completely different. It doesn't lose it's memory when disconnected to power, but it's read/write/access times are rediculously slow compared to hard drives.
    Visor Edge + VisorPhone -> Samsung i300 -> Treo 300 -> Treo 600 -> Treo 700p -> Treo 755
  12. ttcoupe's Avatar
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    #92  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    This still makes it very much slower than DRAM, and does not mean you can substitute real RAM for flash, as was your original premise.
    If I switch a HDD to an SSD, the machine gets faster.

    If I decrease RAM, the machine gets slower.

    So certainly I can have less RAM in an SSD machine than in a HDD machine with the same overall speed.
  13. ttcoupe's Avatar
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    #93  
    Quote Originally Posted by CountBuggula View Post
    Flash memory is completely different. It doesn't lose it's memory when disconnected to power, but it's read/write/access times are rediculously slow compared to hard drives.
    Not true. You have years old information.
  14. #94  
    Quote Originally Posted by ttcoupe View Post
    Not true. You have years old information.
    Excuse me? Can you back up that statement with anything?
    Visor Edge + VisorPhone -> Samsung i300 -> Treo 300 -> Treo 600 -> Treo 700p -> Treo 755
  15. #95  
    Quote Originally Posted by ttcoupe View Post
    If I switch a HDD to an SSD, the machine gets faster.

    If I decrease RAM, the machine gets slower.

    So certainly I can have less RAM in an SSD machine than in a HDD machine with the same overall speed.
    AAAAAAARRGH!!!! This guy is driving me nuts! Please pick up a copy of PC's for dummies before posting back here again!


    Storage and RAM on a PC are not the same thing and they are NOT interchangeable. You cannot get a bigger hard drive and expect that you can just use that instead of memory. You cannot use a solid state drive instead of RAM. "Virtual Memory" made by using hard drive or SSD storage cannot replace RAM completely.

    The logic you're using is so completely flawed it makes my brain hurt.
    Visor Edge + VisorPhone -> Samsung i300 -> Treo 300 -> Treo 600 -> Treo 700p -> Treo 755
  16. ttcoupe's Avatar
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    #96  
    Quote Originally Posted by CountBuggula View Post
    Excuse me? Can you back up that statement with anything?
    Search for articles where new flash based SSDs are tested. I am now typing on a pocketable device and can not easily search links for you, sorry.
  17. cgk
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    #97  
    Are those links smokable?
  18. ttcoupe's Avatar
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    #98  
    Quote Originally Posted by CountBuggula View Post
    Please pick up a copy of PC's for dummies before posting back here again!
    Calm down. What I am saying is true. If you halve the amount of RAM, the computer gets slower because it has to swap more.

    If the swapping process is faster, you can somewhat compensate that.
  19. #99  
    Quote Originally Posted by ttcoupe View Post
    Search for articles where new flash based SSDs are tested. I am now typing on a pocketable device and can not easily search links for you, sorry.
    I have. SSD's based on DRAM are indeed faster than hard drives. If they're based on Flash they're slower than conventional disks on sequential I/O.

    Want the nitty gritty details why? Flash memory is organized in blocks which can be erased, written or read, but only as whole blocks. The access time is the same for each block. If one or more blocks are used as Access Unit (AU), fragmentation has no harmful effect on access speed. However, for high capacity flash memories the AU would be too big, causing a lot of wasted bytes due to unused space within allocated AU's. Hence, in these cases each block is split up in a number of AU's. Initially AU's will be used sequentially within blocks. So a file with a size of N blocks will use no more than N+2 blocks, the first and last block only partially. However, after some time a situation will occur where no block is available of which all AU's are free, so that one or more extra blocks are needed The result is that said file will need more than N+2 blocks and accessing more blocks takes more time. In the worst case only one AE per block is free and said file will need S*N blocks, where S is the number of AE's per block. The conclusion is that, with bigger flash memory, fragmentation has a detoriating effect on access time.
    Visor Edge + VisorPhone -> Samsung i300 -> Treo 300 -> Treo 600 -> Treo 700p -> Treo 755
  20. #100  
    Quote Originally Posted by ttcoupe View Post
    Search for articles where new flash based SSDs are tested. I am now typing on a pocketable device and can not easily search links for you, sorry.
    Sounds like you need a Foleo.
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