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  1. gregp's Avatar
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       #1  
    SJ was criticised for the iPad lacking flash. I remember he once defended his position saying Flash would cut the iPad's battery life from 10 hours to 1.5 hours. An 85% cut seemed pretty drastic. But I guess we believed him, wow how silly were we to suggest it, the Apple guys have obviously done their homework and are clearly so much smarter than us so who are we to question them yadda yadda yadda.

    Flash forward 12 months and the Touchpad is announced, WITH Flash. Now comes the acid test, does the battery last more than somewhere in the vicinity of 1.5 hours? OK not identical devices, but let's say 1-3 hours is a good enough ballpark.

    6 months on and I have two Touchpads of my own. I can't say I charge them any more frequently than once a day. Other sites list the TP as having a battery life of over 8 hours, only one hour less than the iPad.

    So are we to assume that the iPad has a poor battery and only makes 9.5 hours because it DOESN'T run Flash, and if we did an apples for apples comparison with a TP also not running Flash, that the TP's battery would be heading north of 50 hours (working on the ratio claimed by SJ)? Or is Steve now cursing the internet for perpetuating an obvious and ill-conceived lie and hoping no-one notices the elephant in the room now the TP has made the truth so obvious?
    Sapient2k7 likes this.
  2. #2  
    It is Steve Jobs, you have to take what he says with a bit of salt sometimes. He often throws hyperbole's, misquotes, insults, and aggressive stances in his presentations. Won't say he's lying because there is always a chance they ran some un-optimized version of flash on some prototype, but more likely it is a hyperbole based on their experience with flash on Macs.
  3. #3  
    It was likely a gross exaggeration on Jobs part in order to help justify killing flash. Jobs wants I-apps running on the I-platform, and has a reason to want to hinder multi-platform systems such as flash in order to help stifle competition.

    Clearly flash wouldn't reduce the ipad to a useless 1 hour battery life device, but in this instance, a big grain of salt is required.
    New to webOS? Here's my definitive Get Started guide: http://forums.webosnation.com/hp-tou...ted-guide.html

    Want to dual boot Android on your Touchpad? Here's my guide: http://forums.webosnation.com/androi...ted-guide.html
  4. #4  
    Quote Originally Posted by ncinerate View Post
    It was likely a gross exaggeration on Jobs part in order to help justify killing flash. Jobs wants I-apps running on the I-platform, and has a reason to want to hinder multi-platform systems such as flash in order to help stifle competition.

    Clearly flash wouldn't reduce the ipad to a useless 1 hour battery life device, but in this instance, a big grain of salt is required.
    Don't forget that Apple tried pushing the web before the app store came to existence. It was the consumers that drove Apple to native applications.

    Also, don't forget that it is Apple's WebKit that powers the rendering engine in webOS.

    Apple doesn't make its money off the app store or any sort of exclusivity; it makes all its profit from its hardware. The app store actually breaks even, how it was intended to.

    Apple has always been a consumer-facing company that focuses on user experience. They felt like Flash didn't deliver an experience that was on par with what they want delivered on their devices. Can't fault them for that.
  5. #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by barkerja View Post
    Don't forget that Apple tried pushing the web before the app store came to existence. It was the consumers that drove Apple to native applications.
    since people coming from pc's and ye olde smartphones (aka win mo and RIM) had apps it seemed like it was something big the iphone was missing

    Also, don't forget that it is Apple's WebKit that powers the rendering engine in webOS.
    .
    technically came from khtml which was forked for the usage in safari

    and for the people that say the WebKit version on the TP is outdated, actually no its not (from what I see) since if you see the version of WebKit safari 5.1 comes with, the TP's version doesn't fall far behind, the biggest issue for me is from what i see is that there aren't many optimizations towards the platform (which most already mentioned)...
  6. #6  
    Quote Originally Posted by barkerja View Post
    Don't forget that Apple tried pushing the web before the app store came to existence. It was the consumers that drove Apple to native applications.

    Also, don't forget that it is Apple's WebKit that powers the rendering engine in webOS.

    Apple doesn't make its money off the app store or any sort of exclusivity; it makes all its profit from its hardware. The app store actually breaks even, how it was intended to.

    Apple has always been a consumer-facing company that focuses on user experience. They felt like Flash didn't deliver an experience that was on par with what they want delivered on their devices. Can't fault them for that.
    Apple has a long long history of contained application environments. The current app-stores are just the most recent incarnation of this - it didn't evolve organically into this, these devices were built for this.

    While Apple may not make a boatload of money off the app store, it does create an app ecosystem that is incredibly difficult to best with a competing device. Killing multiplatform support is one way to ensure this continues. Hence, flash gets the boot and they focus on a platform they can control.

    Ipad could handle flash fine, and I don't see how anyone could argue that completely axing all web flash content is a net positive for "user experience" considering how ubiquitous it is today. Obviously flash may end up going the way of the dodo in time, perhaps even largely because of the influence of companies like apple, but -today- flash is heavily leaned on around the web. Locking it out of the device altogether wasn't done for the end-users, battery life, or "UI experience".

    Not knocking their strategy or their device - just saying that even the biggest apple fan has to see this blackballing of flash has nothing to do with hardware or end-users. If apple allowed flash to be installed on ipads -tonight- I'd bet almost every single ipad user would be installing it in the morning.

    If they were truly concerned they could have easily added features to prevent flash from running until it was specifically tapped on, for example. No flash running automatically dealing with their supposed "issues" without crippling the device for people who would like to utilize a flash app or website.
    New to webOS? Here's my definitive Get Started guide: http://forums.webosnation.com/hp-tou...ted-guide.html

    Want to dual boot Android on your Touchpad? Here's my guide: http://forums.webosnation.com/androi...ted-guide.html
  7. #7  
    How dare anyone raise such a question about our beloved Steve Jobs?
    Everything out of his mouths(plural) is the absolute truth. If he says
    Flash is bad, then Flash is bad. Steve Job's iPad tablet is the same
    tablets that Moses broght down from the mountains.

    In fact, this has been proven to be 100% true already. On side-by-side
    tests using websits with heavey Flash content, iPad consistently load
    much faster than Android/webOS tablets.

    For those who continue to doubt Steve Jobs: "NO IPADS FOR YOU! NEXT!"
    (also... NO APPLE SAUCE FOR YOU. EVER! )

    Disclaimer: the above message has not been officially approved by the Michele Bachmann For President Committee or the National Soup Restaurant Association or the Washington State Apple Growers Alliance.
    Last edited by Touchpaddle; 09/15/2011 at 06:39 AM.
  8. #8  
    I'm just wondering, why did no one write the software to get Flash running on the iOS devices then release so people whom are Jailbroken can get it?
  9. #9  
    The 1.5 hrs were probably an exaggeration, but he certainly meant 1.5 hrs running a flash web app continuously, not overall.
    Maybe someone wants to test this? Playing a flash game continuously until the battery is empty?
  10. #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by Time View Post
    I'm just wondering, why did no one write the software to get Flash running on the iOS devices then release so people whom are Jailbroken can get it?
    I think only Adobe could do that.
  11. #11  
    You can run flash through Safari on iDevices.

    Its just not natively supported in thier own browser.

    Flash, if used to create vector artwork, will be much more CPU intensive, and suck battery life down more - that is the basis of its nature... it came from a time when file size caused slow web site downloads over much slower internet connectisons. Today, that isnt a problem.

    If Flash is used to stream media through a customized graphical UI ceated inisde of it, this too will suck down battery life, but, no more or less than any other program that plays videos/media; in this regard, Flash is no better or worse than any other media player.

    Steve Jobs doesnt want Flash supported natively on the iDevices for one reason, and one reason alone, which he has never said, but, it appears to me to be painfully obvious: Flash is a true application development platform made for the web, and that brings all sorts of possiblities, good and bad, to the device it runs on, which requires much more work and attention by the device's OS.

    For all iDevices, Apple wants complete and full control (for end user experience, or for profit.. take your pick, they both fit the profile), so, allowing such an open door into their system without having any control whatsoever, will cause problems that they havent and likely don't want to think about.

    Case in point: pay attention to all of the Flash and Windows security updates due to Flash.

    It all goes back to Apple's idealogy. They close the door on the OS. Windows keeps it wide open.

    My opinion: Flash is amazing, and flexible and has and will continue to grow the web and the web's potential.

    Probable result: more browsers will come out on iDevices that play Flash. Steve Jobs wins (cause he wont be responsible for thier problems, if they happen) and loses (because Flash will continue to live and thrive and Apple won't benefit at all).

    End of story.
    "The more I learn, the more I realize just how little I really do know!" -Albert Einstein

  12. #12  
    Steve Jobs is very good at lying. Oh yes, very very good.

    He's able to make everyone believe that Apple products are able to run 5 times better than competitors just by having a chart saying so in his back. No proof needed, there is a chart.
    He's also able to make people believe Apple invented features just by calling them revolutionary, and this is really his best move.
    He can also trash some tech like flash, just because his devices don't implement it. And don't get me wrong, it's a great thing he did, flash must die. But the result of it, replacement of flash by apps instead of web apps... How counter productive for the web, and how good for Apple.

    A really great CEO.
    mivoligo likes this.
  13. #13  
    Just for comparison, would that be the same amount of draw as watching an hour and a half movie?
  14. #14  
    Flash sucks on OS-X. No wonder Steve Jobs doesn't want it on iOS devices.
  15. #15  
    <thread title updated>
  16. #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    <thread title updated>
    another clear example of the powers of Apple, Inc.

    Now you get soup!
  17. #17  
    I'd believe this conspiracy theory that Steve banned Flash to protect their “ecosystem” if they had also banned cross compiling in an attempt to completely eliminate cross-platform-development.

    I stand by my belief that it was a pure user experience decision. Everything Apple does is based around perfecting the experience; nothing more, nothing less.
  18. #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by barkerja View Post
    I'd believe this conspiracy theory that Steve banned Flash to protect their “ecosystem” if they had also banned cross compiling in an attempt to completely eliminate cross-platform-development.

    I stand by my belief that it was a pure user experience decision. Everything Apple does is based around perfecting the experience; nothing more, nothing less.
    The almight Steve Jobs banned Flash first....


    Now Microsoft has just announced that they're banning Flash from versions
    of the upcoming Internet Explorer 10 browser as well!!!!!!!!!!

  19. gregp's Avatar
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       #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by aiden9 View Post
    It is Steve Jobs, you have to take what he says with a bit of salt sometimes. He often throws hyperbole's, misquotes, insults, and aggressive stances in his presentations. Won't say he's lying because there is always a chance they ran some un-optimized version of flash on some prototype, but more likely it is a hyperbole based on their experience with flash on Macs.
    Well isn't this interesting... FBI releases dossier on Jobs | News.com.au which basically confirms he'd do this sort of thing:

    "Several individuals questioned Mr. Jobs' honesty," the file said, "stating that Jobs will twist the truth and distort reality in order to achieve his goals."
    Last edited by gregp; 02/09/2012 at 11:34 PM.
  20. #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by gregp View Post
    Well isn't this interesting... FBI releases dossier on Jobs | News.com.au which basically confirms he'd do this sort of thing:

    "Several individuals questioned Mr. Jobs' honesty," the file said, "stating that Jobs will twist the truth and distort reality in order to achieve his goals."
    And what politician, celebrity, good lawyer, CEO, etc wouldn't?

    They are all jealous that Jobs apparently did it better than just about anyone else.
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