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  1.    #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by toy4x4 View Post
    <<mod delete>>

    I don't get these posts.

    Is that there is now a Kindle App and there are need for more apps? Or is it that the iPad 2 has been out longer (and the iPad has been out for years?)

    What is the purpose of this thread?
    The iPad hasn't been out for years. I believe it's something like 14 months.
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by YankBoy View Post
    I suppose my question was worded improperly and should have been asking if WebOS is the Iran. Yes, we are all well aware that the Touchpad isn't as old as the iPad. The iPad is a whopping 14ish months older. But WebOS has been around since 2009. The fact that a very limited number of WebOS devices now have access to a beta version of the Kindle app merely highlights the wide chasm between WebOS and iOS/Android. I'm not criticizing WebOS/Touchpad/HP/Palm. The situation is what it is. It's an ongoing and monumental uphill climb for HP to generate strong developer interest in WebOS. No doubt, the launch of the TP has helped, but there's still lots that it needs. Kindle was just one glaring omission. There's no doubt in my mind that WebOS is the best smartphone platform around (and this is where the Iran analogy would break down) but it still needs A LOT of developer support. Unfortunately, Apple keeps pushing things forward, so any incremental gains WebOS makes are negated. They are in a tough spot.
    i think what other people were taking issues with is how you're using iPad/iOS interchangably when comparing to the TP.

    you have to remember that iOS existed way before the iPad...i believe originally released in 2007 when the first iPhone came out. the kindle app for that didn't get released until 2009, two years after the iOS has been out as well. and the original iphone didn't become popular because of the apps...it was because the iPod was the thing to have and people wanted to consolidate their mp3 player and their phone. so to me, music pushed the iphone sales which pushed the developer interest which pushed the apps which is pushing the iPad sales.

    of course, HP/Palm doesn't have that history. so they are behind in a lot of ways...but way ahead in some. i think the fact that there's already this many apps available in a device that's essentially unproven speaks volume already. i wouldn't count them out so early in the game....
    Last edited by wencyjr; 07/19/2011 at 04:21 PM.
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by YankBoy View Post
    I suppose my question was worded improperly and should have been asking if WebOS is the Iran. Yes, we are all well aware that the Touchpad isn't as old as the iPad. The iPad is a whopping 14ish months older. But WebOS has been around since 2009. The fact that a very limited number of WebOS devices now have access to a beta version of the Kindle app merely highlights the wide chasm between WebOS and iOS/Android. I'm not criticizing WebOS/Touchpad/HP/Palm. The situation is what it is. It's an ongoing and monumental uphill climb for HP to generate strong developer interest in WebOS. No doubt, the launch of the TP has helped, but there's still lots that it needs. Kindle was just one glaring omission. There's no doubt in my mind that WebOS is the best smartphone platform around (and this is where the Iran analogy would break down) but it still needs A LOT of developer support. Unfortunately, Apple keeps pushing things forward, so any incremental gains WebOS makes are negated. They are in a tough spot.
    Thanks for your clarification. We all know that some of the points you listed are reasons that Palm did not survive. However, this is HP not Palm. They need to be judge by their own successes and failures.

    Isn't it telling that the first large screen HP webOS device has the Kindle app after less than 3 weeks on the market, a video store by the end of the month, more tablets apps on the day of its release than Android (and I believe the iPad), better advertising, and features that the current iPad and next update don't have? Only thing we can honestly fault HP on is the initial bugs in the system, which will be corrected (hopefully!) within a week of the "hard" launch.
    Cantaffordit likes this.
  4. #24  
    <staff edit>

    It's same conversation people had when pre minus was released. Here we are, two years later, with the naysayers telling us how bad it is, while we use our new devices, running software from a still expanding selection.
    Last edited by HelloNNNewman; 07/19/2011 at 04:46 PM. Reason: quote deleted - original deleted
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by YankBoy View Post
    The iPad hasn't been out for years. I believe it's something like 14 months.
    But you have changed the comparison. It's now WebOS vs IOS. IOS was introduced in early 2007.
  6. #26  
    Please don't turn this into yet another iOS vs. webOS thread guys.
    Cantaffordit, k4ever and Rnp like this.
  7. #27  
    <title updated - thread moved>
  8. #28  
    Comparisons are inevitable because webOS devices are really just small part on extremely populated gadget market. Samsung's bold decision to pull back original design and improve it can be good sign to HP what it looks like in consumer market they stepped in. I bet in future HP will not allow themselves unnecessary mistakes they made with TP however small they were.
  9. #29  
    Mobile devices compete in the current environment. Not a mystical environment from the past or one staged months or years in the future. It wouldn't make any difference if it took 2,000 years for iOS to get an eReader. It has it now. That's all that matters.

    Besides, it's really, really unflattering to compare the development of webOS to any other mobile operating system out there. Compared to iOS, Android, Blackberry OS and WM->WP7, webOS has developed by far the least.

    The expectation that, somehow, webOS 3.0 is going to be a new game seems pretty ridiculous at this point. Fragmentation in webOS is already worse than Android, and unlike the concrete plans Google has to end their fragmentation problems (contracts that require supported updates and a consistent OS) there is seemingly no end in sight for webOS. Developers still have no clue where they should put their energy because there is no clear development path for Mojo 2.x or Enyo at this point. At least we're all pretty sure Mojo 1.x SDK is dead. The Pre 2 is dead and never sold more than a handful of units. The Veer is on life support with the expectation it'll never sell more than a handful of units, and the Pre3, which was already behind a cycle, is an Autumn launch in the minds of the realistic. The Sprint Pre and Pixi (the largest user base for webOS) owners have begun hitting their contract end dates, and most of them are more than happy to throw those Pres and Pixis into a dumpster in favor of phones with enormously better performance, build quality, features, applications, and operating system support.

    Where are the apps coming from? Why would developers even look at webOS? Develop in the flawed Mojo 1.x which is missing critical APIs, and target the only legitimate, yet rapidly dwindling webOS user base in the hopes that your feature lacking applications might sell to the Pre 2, Veer and eventually Pre3 users as well? Develop in the abandoned Mojo 2.x SDK you were told to migrate to last year, which now actually has basic APIs and target the almost non-existent Pre 2 and Veer users with the hopes that now big time underdog Pre3 attracts users to buy your applications for a limited time before it maybe migrates to webOS 3.x? How about developing in Enyo without an SDK for any phones hoping the poorly reviewed and feature lacking TouchPad carries the day? Maybe the promise of the dying, but still relevant for at least 18 months laptop market will get a developer to code in Enyo? Of course, that's still at least 6 months away so why not just wait until there's a shred of legitimate hard info from HP on when laptops WILL get webOS?

    The bottom line is that nobody knows when the fragmentation will end, when/if a truly successful webOS device will launch, what the roadmap for webOS development looks like or even who might be manufacturing webOS devices in the future. As a developer, you can target a small, dying market with a dead and extremely obsolete SDK, an insignificant market with an abandoned SDK or an unknown market without an SDK. HP's acquisition of Palm has been an epic failure for all parties involved, including consumers.
  10. #30  
    Everyone complains about lack of apps on Touchpad. Instead of 300, not you have 301. You should be happy b/c the number will only rise.

    Plus as someone else said, what would be the point of a Kindle app on webOS when the only hardware out there was Pre with the small screens?
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by EvilKell View Post
    Mobile devices compete in the current environment. Not a mystical environment from the past or one staged months or years in the future. It wouldn't make any difference if it took 2,000 years for iOS to get an eReader. It has it now. That's all that matters....snipped
    That was brutal. That's gonna set some webos fans retina's on fire. You should have a least provided some Visine.
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by sinsin07 View Post
    That was brutal. That's gonna set some webos fans retina's on fire. You should have a least provided some Visine.
    It might some, but not likely most. It only seems "ridiculous" to those that choose to pretend it is so. The facts simply don't bear out the suppositions that he's "sharing." New developers are coming on board, new excitement is building. Those that are determined to disparage the platform pretending it's not happening changes nothing.
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    It might some, but not likely most. It only seems "ridiculous" to those that choose to pretend it is so. The facts simply don't bear out the suppositions that he's "sharing." New developers are coming on board, new excitement is building. Those that are determined to disparage the platform pretending it's not happening changes nothing.
    I'm sure there are developers that have "come on board" only to see the steaming pile which is webOS fragmentation, and the non-existent user base before jumping ship.

    Even people like Dieter Bohn have actively posted saying webOS development is in big trouble unless HP gets their act together, and right now. <<Staff edit>>

    Here's the link to his post, just for the record (and since I know you'll ask for me to do the footwork for you again).

    http://forums.precentral.net/hp-pre-...me-soon-6.html

    Quote Originally Posted by Dieter Bohn View Post
    The concern is we've seen this story before.

    1. Community assumes there will be a non-fragmented platform with updates for all.
    2. Palm confirms that assumption with promises
    3. Palm executives make slippery statements that are unclear but point to backtracking on 1 &2.
    4. It turns out that, no, those updates aren't coming after all and the platform is fragmenting, making life more difficult for both users and developers.

    We've seen 1-4 for webOS 2.0 for Palm devices. So far, we are looking at 1, 2, AND 3 for both Enyo and webOS 3.x on Veer and Pre 3.

    I'd like to believe that you're right and we won't see step 4 this time and that the shift from Palm leadership to HP leadership is a reason to believe history won't repeat itself.

    ....But in the meantime I'm not going to hold my breath. HP needs to provide developers with an SDK that's fully and clearly compatible with the Pre3 AND clarify what the Enyo framework will look like on phones, ASAP.
    Last edited by HelloNNNewman; 07/19/2011 at 10:21 PM. Reason: rude
  14. #34  
    That quote from Dieter is particularly damning when you consider his relationship with Adora.
  15. #35  
    I suggest members keep the personal attacks and comments to themselves.
    bevcraw likes this.
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by EvilKell View Post
    I'm sure there are developers that have "come on board" only to see the steaming pile which is webOS fragmentation, and the non-existent user base before jumping ship.

    Even people like Dieter Bohn have actively posted saying webOS development is in big trouble unless HP gets their act together, and right now. <<Staff edit>>

    Here's the link to his post, just for the record (and since I know you'll ask for me to do the footwork for you again).

    http://forums.precentral.net/hp-pre-...me-soon-6.html
    There may be some that see your so-called "steaming pile", and jump ship, but it's certainly not universal. New apps are still showing up almost daily, for both the phones and the TouchPad.

    Even looking at Dieter's post (much of which I agree with) neither it, nor the facts, bear out your "steaming pile" assessment. I especially find it interesting that the detractors, while claiming the failure is destined to happen, seem extremely intent on helping it along. I suspect that that most of them have a need to pretend they're right, when in fact, the platform, and the devices, continue toe sell.
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    ...It's same conversation people had when pre minus was released. Here we are, two years later ...
    That sentence is often used here to discredit someone, but frequent usage made of it the best counter argument for all saying that webOS is in loop.

    For me, incoming months are crucial for webOS. I'm really hoping HP can deal with TP's launch bugs and push it stronger with better acceptance.
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by chalx View Post
    That sentence is often used here to discredit someone, but frequent usage made of it the best counter argument for all saying that webOS is in loop.

    For me, incoming months are crucial for webOS. I'm really hoping HP can deal with TP's launch bugs and push it stronger with better acceptance.
    More accurately, it's used to discredit the constant line that the platform is dying. Two years is a pretty slow death. That's the reason it's used so frequently, because it makes it obvious that the predictions simply haven't proven true.

    One only needs look around this forum and notice the sudden influx of new users to see that the TouchPad is appealing to another group of users. The base is apparently expanding.

    The OP may be somewhat correct in his strange comparison. Yes, the platform may be behind IS in many ways. That's OK, "beating" IOS isn't the goal. While there is room for improvement, HP seems solidly on their way to success with what they're doing.
  19. #39  
    You can also try Japan and the Western world. 130 years ago Japan was well and truly a third world country by measures used at the time. But look at what they did had 60 years later during WWII, and where there are now. Similar story with South Korea. China and India are getting there very rapidly. On the other hand, Russia, which during the 60s was on par with the US in technological capability as well as relative wealth, is now years behind, except for a few very niche areas.

    I think whilst the relative superiority in technology, app numbers, etc are very important, what is more important is how the players manage themselves and what strategies they take to catch up or to maintain the lead. Using your analogy, Iran can do far better if 70% of their science graduates did not leave Iran to work in the US and Canada, and the remaining 30% were treated and managed better and did not have to go answer calls to prayers half way through calculating whatever is needed to keep the monkey alive and did not have ayatollahs or their connections as their departmental heads, and at a governmental level if their top people actually debated to solve key issues rather than cheating and using prison terms to settle the outcome of policy issues.

    Unfortunately, given the missed promises, missed deadlines, inconsistent and contradictory statements, point blank arrogance when defending their decisions, key people leaving, etc, I have to say HP is more like Iran than Japan insofar as WebOS is concerned, and I would also say Apple is more like Japan in terms of team culture, plus a healthy dose of western flair for innovation. It does not mean HP has lost the game at all, but it does mean they have a lot of internal structural work to do to have the ability to compete with the likes of Apple.
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