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  1. Silver5's Avatar
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       #1  
    I'm a huge fan of the Treos, and I think that they are going to be THE smartphone to beat for quite a while, but there are many reasons that they are not the best for me. What I'm going to tell you just adds to that.

    I drove out to my parents' home today to visit before they take off to travel for a few weeks and within 10 minutes of sitting and talking my father mentions that his Treo 650 stopped working. He told me that he cannot unlock the keys. Sure enough, I couldn't unlock them by pressing the center button, so I reset the device and was at least able to make the screen respond, however, the buttons did not. The power button works fine, but no other button on the device responds. This is a big deal because I cannot figure out any way to use the device WITHOUT the keyboard and application buttons. I cannot get to anything that is not one of the four favourites on the phone screen or in the menus for that screen. No contacts, no calendar, no inbox, nothing. Now, most Treo lovers always brag about the integration of the keyboard with the OS on the Treos, and how wonderful that is, but now I realize how annoying it was when I HAD to use the keys to do everything. There is not a single thing I can think of doing that would let me access any application on the device using only the stylus on the screen, yet Treo fanatics whine about the lack of integration of the keyboards on the WM OS. I think that the keyboard is too integral to the operation of the Treo.

    On the SX66, if the buttons stopped working everything could still be accessed and fully utilized. If the screen stopped working quite a bit could be done, but still not nearly as much as the Treo, yet I think this is a better comprimise. At least a person would still have access either way. With the Treo 650 we're screwed.

    Of course, he's going to call to get a replacement phone, but in the meantime I have loaned him my newest phone (the only one I had with me), the SX66. I don't know if I will be able to convince him to put it down He's actually already offered to buy it from me! Like I'd make my father pay for something like that...He payed for college and I'm getting ready for law school...it just wouldn't feel right!! I really do miss my old Treo 650's keyboard but tonight I have a really good reason to love my PPC phones.

    I also posted this on Howardforums but I just knew you guys wanted to read something like this! Now, think of some quick reasons to like the Treo more and blast me with them
  2. #2  
    Sounds like a hardware failure on the Treo 650 if the keyboard doesn't work. I don't think it's wise to base a critique of an entire line of phones based on one hardware failure, but opinions vary.
  3. #3  
    There have are at least a couple of threads on this problem:

    http://discussion.treocentral.com/showthread.php?t=71184
    http://discussion.treocentral.com/showthread.php?t=89552

    Did you try popping the SD card out and then reinserting it?
    V > Vx > m505 > m515 > T/T > T3 > TC > 650 > 680
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  4. #4  
    So I guess PPC devices never suffer hardware failures?
    Bob Meyer
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  5. RobM's Avatar
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    #5  
    I am a huge Treo fan, but there is a big difference between Palm OS and Microsoft OS. Microsoft is agressively trying to gain market share and therefore trying to give the consumer what he/she wants and is trying to resolve issues as they come up. Palm on the other hand seems to believe that it has supreme market share and that they can coast since noone is close enough to them to make a difference. Although this may be true....right now, if they lose focus, there gonna be far behind down the road. Just look at what happened to Netscape vs Explorer...this could happen to Palm if they dont get their act together.

    this is my opinion so dont go trashing me over this...

    thanks

    rob
  6. #6  
    I've got to say it: Windows Mobile sucks. Absolutely sucks. It's slow, buggy and crashy. On my Palms, I never missed an alarm. When I had PPCs (I've had a few), I missed many. I'm sure you're all aware of the notifications bug. How you could possibly let a PDA out the door with this type of bug is beyond me.

    The registry on a handheld! What a joke! Windows is not suited to a handheld. Hell it sucks full sized and with a functional keyboard to fix it. Pint sized, it's terrible. I've owned for a few months at a time, what were considered top of the line handhelds for their time: Toshiba e740 ( what a fiasco that handheld was), iPaq 2215 (not a bad machine, but I lost all of my data 3 separate times and a full backup didn't ever fix it right), Axim x30h (it's like they hit this Dell with the ugly stick a few times; never had a fully working one in the 2 months I owned it), x50v (nice but still suffered from the slow, buggy OS).

    How was that?
  7. #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by RobM
    I am a huge Treo fan, but there is a big difference between Palm OS and Microsoft OS. Microsoft is agressively trying to gain market share and therefore trying to give the consumer what he/she wants and is trying to resolve issues as they come up. Palm on the other hand seems to believe that it has supreme market share and that they can coast since noone is close enough to them to make a difference. Although this may be true....right now, if they lose focus, there gonna be far behind down the road. Just look at what happened to Netscape vs Explorer...this could happen to Palm if they dont get their act together.

    this is my opinion so dont go trashing me over this...

    rob
    I won't trash you, but I will disagree. MS is still stuck in "featuritis" mode, the idea that more is better. Just keep thowing in more features and sooner or later you'll have something for everyone. Ignore that fact that every feature uses more RAM, and makes the system less stable and more difficult to use.

    Palm still understands that a handheld needs to be simple and quick to USE as distinct from learn. PPC seems easier when people first pick it up because they are already familiar with windows. But when it comes to actually using the device with one hand, or without a stylus, while you're in a car, or walking down the sidewalk, or in a meeting, the Palm OS still beats PPC hands down. The PalmOS has its flaws, no doubt, but it's still more suited for a handheld device that MS's 15th variation on Windows for handhelds.

    As for IE vs. Netscape, IE didn't win because it was "better." IE "won" because MS used it's monopoly on operating systems to force computer makers to bundle IE, and only IE, threatening to punish any manufacturer who included Netscape with their PC. In case you've forgotten, MS was convicted of anti-trust violations over this. The fact the the Bush administration caved and gave them a slap on the wrist settlement in exchange for millions in campaign contributions doesn't change the fact that MS was guilty.

    And MS hasn't provided any real updates to IE in 4 or 5 years. If MS manages to marginalize Palm based devices, you'll probably see the same lack of improvement in their smartphone OS.
    Bob Meyer
    I'm out of my mind. But feel free to leave a message.
  8. #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by meyerweb
    ...As for IE vs. Netscape, IE didn't win because it was "better." IE "won" because MS used it's monopoly on operating systems to force computer makers to bundle IE, and only IE, threatening to punish any manufacturer who included Netscape with their PC. In case you've forgotten, MS was convicted of anti-trust violations over this. The fact the the Bush administration caved and gave them a slap on the wrist settlement in exchange for millions in campaign contributions doesn't change the fact that MS was guilty.
    & as far as the ultimate victory of IE is concerned, at this point most of the savvy Windoze users i know use Mozilla thanks to IE's appalling record of security compromises. but i wouldn't want to compare IE's win to other celebrated claims of victory.
  9. #9  
    There are other threads in this forum showing pictures and videos of the next Treo (they're calling is Treo 670) and it shows it running Windows Mobile 5!

    I've casually used PocktPC on an old iPaq 3760 and it ran well enough to use the iPag qith a Bluetooth GPS and navigation program. Data loss was usually because the iPaq discharged and it didn't have NVRAM so once the battrery was out everything was lost. This was a hardware problem, not an OS problem.

    I have a Treo now and really like it. The OS doesn't really make any difference to me. It's the applications that matter and I think I can get whatever I need for both Windows Mobile and PalmOS.
  10. cec
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    #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by rambo47
    Sounds like a hardware failure on the Treo 650 if the keyboard doesn't work. I don't think it's wise to base a critique of an entire line of phones based on one hardware failure, but opinions vary.
    My thoughts exactly. Odd way to twist it into some advantage for WM2003 based devices. Integration of keyboard and phone features is a big PLUS in a smartphone.

    I own a PPC and recently sold a PPC phone and while I do like WM2003 in a PDA I find it a bit tiresome to be always pecking at the screen just to use the phone . Personally, I am looking foward to WM5. If it is less cumbersome than WM2003 than I may switch.
  11. #11  
    I've been a Mac guy my whole life, and for good reasons, I think. The last thing I'd want is a Microsoft-powered phone. Been using a Palm III for ages also, right up to the point I got the 650. I like the Palm software, as it's familiar, easy to use, and syncs right up to my computer with no hassles.

    -Kirk
  12. #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by torifile
    I've got to say it: Windows Mobile sucks. Absolutely sucks. It's slow, buggy and crashy. On my Palms, I never missed an alarm. When I had PPCs (I've had a few), I missed many. I'm sure you're all aware of the notifications bug. How you could possibly let a PDA out the door with this type of bug is beyond me.

    The registry on a handheld! What a joke! Windows is not suited to a handheld. Hell it sucks full sized and with a functional keyboard to fix it. Pint sized, it's terrible. I've owned for a few months at a time, what were considered top of the line handhelds for their time: Toshiba e740 ( what a fiasco that handheld was), iPaq 2215 (not a bad machine, but I lost all of my data 3 separate times and a full backup didn't ever fix it right), Axim x30h (it's like they hit this Dell with the ugly stick a few times; never had a fully working one in the 2 months I owned it), x50v (nice but still suffered from the slow, buggy OS).

    How was that?

    Why is it people need to take up religious-like 'sides' when discussing the merits and drawbacks to either platform? I'll never understand it.

    If you've really owned and used a modern PocketPC before, you know perfectly well that 'slow and buggy' is a descriptive no less aptly used for our Treo 650s as it is for the average WindowsMobile device.

    Of all the handhelds (literally over two dozen) I've owned, PalmOS based have been not one whit more reliable, faster or inherently better in any way than my WinCE/PPC/WM ones. That original Palm Pilot speed/simplicity has been compromised over that past 6 years of retrofitting and add-ons to compete with features of the Windows based units. Speed, Reliability and the 'Zen of Palm' are not, IMHO, hallmarks of PalmOS anymore.

    I'm certainly not saying WindowsMobile is the end-all, because in my hand these days is a 650 and not a Microsoft-driven product. But really, the holy war against Windows is truly moot given the way PalmOS has been handled in recent years.
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  13. #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by meyerweb
    Palm still understands that a handheld needs to be simple and quick to USE as distinct from learn. PPC seems easier when people first pick it up because they are already familiar with windows. But when it comes to actually using the device with one hand, or without a stylus, while you're in a car, or walking down the sidewalk, or in a meeting, the Palm OS still beats PPC hands down. The PalmOS has its flaws, no doubt, but it's still more suited for a handheld device that MS's 15th variation on Windows for handhelds.
    I still have to tap on the screen to do many things on my Treo. It's one thing to SAY you can do everything just with button presses, but when you have a case on or need to edit something, the one-handedness becomes really impractical and the stylus (or two-handed keyboard use) becomes mandatory. It's like equipping a car with a triggered joystick - sure, you could do it, but would you really want to use that for every kind of driving?

    I've yet to own a WM phone, but the 6600 I tried out seemed to be pretty simple to use to me, one-handed app buttons, navigation pad (which was a first on a PPC, not a Palm), etc. - Then again, I could never understand the ongoing complaint of the Palm Faithful that WinCE/PPC/WM was so much more kludgy or non-user-friendly. I always found it equally simple to do the basic stuff... And as far as web work goes, I've always found the MS browser and internet functionality to be superior than the various PalmOS offerings - the Treo Blazer browser is, at best, an excercise in patience.
    And MS hasn't provided any real updates to IE in 4 or 5 years. If MS manages to marginalize Palm based devices, you'll probably see the same lack of improvement in their smartphone OS.
    Er, IE may not be perfect, but Mozilla (Netscape core) certainly isn't a panacea. It's slower than IE by far and has a nasty memory leak bug that they can't seem to track down. If you do any image browsing or video work online, you can expect it to lock down after a few hours. Also, some websites still aren't properly formatted for it, and some menus and such don't work.
    Last edited by pixelator; 08/06/2005 at 02:07 PM.
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  14. RobM's Avatar
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    #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by meyerweb
    I won't trash you, but I will disagree. MS is still stuck in "featuritis" mode, the idea that more is better. Just keep thowing in more features and sooner or later you'll have something for everyone. Ignore that fact that every feature uses more RAM, and makes the system less stable and more difficult to use.

    Palm still understands that a handheld needs to be simple and quick to USE as distinct from learn. PPC seems easier when people first pick it up because they are already familiar with windows. But when it comes to actually using the device with one hand, or without a stylus, while you're in a car, or walking down the sidewalk, or in a meeting, the Palm OS still beats PPC hands down. The PalmOS has its flaws, no doubt, but it's still more suited for a handheld device that MS's 15th variation on Windows for handhelds.

    As for IE vs. Netscape, IE didn't win because it was "better." IE "won" because MS used it's monopoly on operating systems to force computer makers to bundle IE, and only IE, threatening to punish any manufacturer who included Netscape with their PC. In case you've forgotten, MS was convicted of anti-trust violations over this. The fact the the Bush administration caved and gave them a slap on the wrist settlement in exchange for millions in campaign contributions doesn't change the fact that MS was guilty.

    And MS hasn't provided any real updates to IE in 4 or 5 years. If MS manages to marginalize Palm based devices, you'll probably see the same lack of improvement in their smartphone OS.
    We can all disagree...no problem. My point was more from a prospective of corporate strategy as opposed to engineering. MS is using the shotgun approach to features, seeing what it can give the public and seeing how the general public responds to what it really needs and palm on the other hand give you want they think that you want and need, in essense, making the decision for you. 2 examples of this are the fact that many people, not including myself, have been wanting some form of wifi in the product, whether built in or via a sd card...havent seen it yet, I mean how hard can it be...(maybe it is hard, I just dont know). The other is the memory thing where they decided that no user will need more than 32 meg total ( I guess they were wrong on that one also) The microsoft product seem to be growing in ram and features and I am sure that in time MS will begin to cut out features that arent required by the public mass. I am in no way a microsoft fan, but I understand what they are trying to do. And yes, they did do some illegal stuff and I am sure they are still doing illegal stuff, but then again, seems like nowadays, thats the norm, but the end result is still the same, IE is more widely used than any other browser where as Netscape use to be the most widely used, although there are others coming to the plate now and hense the reason IE is coming out with version 7 shortly (in beta right now).

    Again, I stress I am not a MS fan but merely making my observation. MS is gaining market share and now Palm, being hypocritcal, is probably on the verge of releasing a MS version of the Treo as indicated in other threads. I am not sure what to make of that just yet other than it is palms way to sell more hardware...time will tell

    thanks

    rob
  15. #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by pixelator
    Why is it people need to take up religious-like 'sides' when discussing the merits and drawbacks to either platform? I'll never understand it.

    If you've really owned and used a modern PocketPC before, you know perfectly well that 'slow and buggy' is a descriptive no less aptly used for our Treo 650s as it is for the average WindowsMobile device.
    You're not serious, are you? WM IS slow and buggy. Go read some threads on aximsite about the slow start menu response. The strange hangs. The just odd behavior of the device, to start. If that's not the definition of buggy, I don't know what is.

    Of all the handhelds (literally over two dozen) I've owned, PalmOS based have been not one whit more reliable, faster or inherently better in any way than my WinCE/PPC/WM ones. That original Palm Pilot speed/simplicity has been compromised over that past 6 years of retrofitting and add-ons to compete with features of the Windows based units. Speed, Reliability and the 'Zen of Palm' are not, IMHO, hallmarks of PalmOS anymore.
    Nothing about zen here. Feature creep has been a problem on both sides. You're experience with PPCs being as reliable as Palms is interesting. I guess you were never struck by the WM2k3 notifications bug, then? That's a reliability problem. I don't know how many hard resets I've suffered through - and not a one was battery life related. Just crappy software, honestly.

    I'm certainly not saying WindowsMobile is the end-all, because in my hand these days is a 650 and not a Microsoft-driven product. But really, the holy war against Windows is truly moot given the way PalmOS has been handled in recent years.
    I don't like Windows much (my first post was actually an exaggeration of my feelings because the OP asked for it) but there's something about the close-mindedness of your average windows user (e.g., Macs aren't good for anything but graphics, Palms aren't capable, blah blah) that really bugs me. As a PDA, I can't help but think that a Palm is better. Like I said, I've been tempted repeatedly to the PPC side because the thing looks better on paper, but the reality is very different.
  16. #16  
    My post got removed. I guess the picture was too big..
  17. Silver5's Avatar
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       #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gamble
    There have are at least a couple of threads on this problem:

    http://discussion.treocentral.com/showthread.php?t=71184
    http://discussion.treocentral.com/showthread.php?t=89552

    Did you try popping the SD card out and then reinserting it?
    Thanks for the advice. I did pull the SD card out and reinserted it, and was even about to open the device up and play around a little, but since he is calling to have it replaced I figured I had better not.

    I knew this post would get ya'll going though, and I was pretty sure a moderator would move it even though it is all about the Treo 650 . Hehe...gotta keep posts that aren't supporting the Treo's good points out of view!

    Just so you guys know, I am a huge fan of the Treo 650 and was one of the people who showed up at those Roadshows trying to get one early (that worked out really well ), so it is not me bashing the Treo. No need to get into defensive mode, although I expected it! I just stop to check this place out every once in a while even though I sold my last 650 (I had three at one point). I like the device alot, as I've said before, but there are many, many things that the WM devices do much better. I agree with the comments about the Treo being the simpler and often more efficient of the two types for certain tasks, making it the better choice for many people, but it has some glaring faults aas well. It kinda sucks that people are so loyal to the device they bought that can't see the positive aspects of other devices (now, everyone can rush in to show how fair minded they're being ).

    Are WM devices buggy. YES. Is the Treo buggy. YES. Both devices could improve the ease of navigation, the Treo allowing for stylus only control in addition to the keyboard navigation and WM phone allowing for Treo like navigation. The Treos could use more memory, yet WM could stand to use it more efficiently. Treos have a well know problem with quality as well. How many people have had two or more replacement Treos? I have. They replaced my 650 three times, replace my first 600 6 times and the second 600 8 times (I think it was eight...). My i-mate Jam hasn't been replaced, nor the SX66. I did have to replace my iPAQ 6315 though. What it comes down to is Palm devices no longer can claim that they are the trouble free device to own. Heck, the only reason I even tried a PPC in the first place is having two Palm Vx PDAs fail on me way back in the day! To say WM sucks is not very thoughtful...I wouldn't brag about VersaMail or Blazer if I were you, just as I won't tell you how "wonderful" Pocket Word is.

    For those that say I'm basing this on a hardware failure, that is not accurate. I noticed the inability to navigate without the hardware buttons only because of the inability to use them. In other words, were the buttons working, I still would be unable to navigate through the device's software without using them. I only noticed this when I was not able to use them. \

    Try not to be so loyal to these brands and OS's. It is fun to talk about the differences...but some folks take it to the point of religion, and we all know how level headed the ultra-religious folks are...
  18. #18  
    Has ANY Palm device ever been navigatible without hardware buttons? The only thing I can think is with something like McPhling. Am I mis-remembering?
  19. #19  
    Sorry, Silver5, this is nothing post has nothing to do with the Treo, it's trolling plain and simple. So don't pretend this is a 'coverup' by getting moved to the 'other' forum.

    Still wish my image earlier hadn't been removed.. :-/
  20. #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by torifile
    Nothing about zen here. Feature creep has been a problem on both sides. You're experience with PPCs being as reliable as Palms is interesting. I guess you were never struck by the WM2k3 notifications bug, then? That's a reliability problem. I don't know how many hard resets I've suffered through - and not a one was battery life related. Just crappy software, honestly.
    If you had as much trouble with the Notification Bug as you claim, you're a fooll.

    There were fixes created to clear the database records upon resetting. Even vendors themselves released patches for this.
    Last edited by Insertion; 08/06/2005 at 05:56 PM.
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    Remember: "Anyone that thinks the Treo should just work right out of the box, shouldn't own a Treo..."
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