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  1. #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    OK kids, stay on topic... If way go offtopic again the thread wil be closed.
    what are you talking about?
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
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    #62  
    I thought we were staying on topic... Now, I would admit, there are various points that we have discussed that stray a bit off the main topic... Geez, these moderators keep getting meaner and meaner...
  3. spiVeyx's Avatar
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    #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    Excellent point. If it was desugned for business users and not joe phone/pda user why did it have a camera at all?
    But you see, that's my point. Most people that use a converged device are in business. Now, I'm not one to make stupid stereotypes, but from what I've observed here on T|C, it would seem that most people here would consider themselves a "business professional".
  4. #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof
    Never said they werent targeting corp customers. That is obvious, but it is not their sole focus, nor is the treo tailored for business professionals alone.
    Business professionals arent the only ones who have email or calenders and phone books. Also most business pros I know dont care to listen to mp3's, take pictures, or watch movies on their phones.

    The treo is clearly an everyman device, as long as the every man wants one device instead of two.
    Wow, you said it all. I'm not a manager or work for administration. I'm just an IT developer who writes reports, design programs and work with databases, but I find my Treo really useful. It fits my needs. However, I know some people in my office that I'm wasting my money in an expensive device. For one they don't use a PDA and I think most of them never had one. So I don't think they know what they are talking about.

    Al
  5. spiVeyx's Avatar
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    #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by Treolo
    I'm just an IT developer who writes reports, design programs and work with databases
    Sounds like you're a business professional to me. I never said the Treo was only marketed towards management-types.
  6.    #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by evilghost
    Barky81, first I would like to thank you for your very informative post. I believe, just like you, that activesync support and Exchange integration will be the panacea of future phones. I have smashed my Treo 650 in protest and am eagerly awaiting my future purchase of multiple Slowkia phones so I can have this great feature. Your post has saved me a great deal of time.
    Okay, a few people in this thread seem to keep overlooking the clear, simple and oh so obvious point that multiple major companies are, in fact, licensing Exchange Activesync technology to include on their current and future handsets. I am pretty sure NOT ONE OF THEM has done so at my suggestion or direction.

    So each and everyone of those who say it's stupid, or no one uses it, etc. should really recognize that they are at odds (not with me but) with everyone from PalmOne on down the line. And why?

    It is VERY clear that many would-be commentators on the subject have no particular background on the issue, so here's a brief overview from Redmond Magazine (from last November; I added all bold emphasis):

    QUOTE: "...according to research from Radicati Group. The firm estimates the worldwide corporate Exchange installed base at 114 million mailboxes. By the end of this year, Radicati projects that 40 percent of those mailboxes will be on Exchange 5.5, 43 percent on Exchange 2000 and 14 percent on Exchange 2003.

    "By the end of 2005, when Microsoft support for Exchange 5.5 is scheduled to formally end, Radicati projects the installed base for that older messaging platform will fall to about 24 percent. Exchange 2003 will also pass Exchange 2000 by the end of 2005, with 37 percent of the installed base compared to 36 percent, Radicati projects.

    "Pretty clearly, Exchange Server 2003 flopped out of the gate. A number of reasons account for the slow start, but there are likewise a few good reasons to expect the server to become the dominant version of Exchange relatively quickly."

    Now, one quick takeaway from that is 14% of 114 million mailboxes = approximately 16 million mailboxes "eligible" for immediate use via Exchange Activesync NOW and growing to a projected 40 million by the end of 2005.

    It also now seems clearly evident that Microsoft is trying to drive the corporate market to upgrade to Exchange 2003 more rapidly...and a major initiative in that effort is ubiquitous availability of Exchange Activesync. (I didn't make that up, they've said it repeatedly.)


    Quote Originally Posted by evilghost
    Additionally, because I feel that Mircrosoft-only technologies are the future and that RFCs and community based daemons and protocols are for the weak-minded I have forced all my mailservers to only receive and transmit mail to Microsoft servers. I call this "Operation Asshat".
    A more appropriate name might be "Operation Avatar". (Nice pic and implied sentiment)

    QUICKIE sidenote: I am pretty sure Microsoft is far more effectively involved in the RFC process than you personally.

    Despite your disparaging view of Microsoft and its products, they seem to be doing pretty well. All I can say to those wishing so desparately for the Treo to become the iPod of smartphones (and likewise, PalmOne become Apple). I hope you get your wish.


    Quote Originally Posted by evilghost
    I've removed all software from my machine that isn't overly priced shovelware and have shook my fists and gnashed my teeth at anything marked Linux, GNU/GPL, or open source.
    Well, I bet that really ticked off the librarian, huh?


    Quote Originally Posted by evilghost
    I believe, like you, that the future of software, as well as PalmOne's livelyhood is deep rooted in insecure closed-source code and the HUGE marketshare dominated by Microsoft and the support of a single product that allows for synchronization. Remember, no one runs anything but Microsoft products.
    Ahem, please see above. Apparently, a few corporate folks do, in fact, use Microsoft products (who knew?).


    Quote Originally Posted by evilghost
    Protocols and technologies like IMAP and POP3 are for people who can't afford the resounding stability, speed, and raw power of the MAPI interface. I know I change my contacts at least hmmm, 65,536 times a day and if that over-the-air sync isn't there, it just hurts my feelings.
    Yes, and your secretary schedules all of your farm chores from the barn for you to sync OTA to your Treo. And when you need to reschedule the milking, you upload the changes from your Treo to the shed, I get it, I get it.

    But, again, your simple disparagement doesn't change the FACT that MILLIONS of people DO! (Far more people are using Exchange to schedule meetings TODAY than will hold a Treo EVER! Or a Palm since its inception.)


    Quote Originally Posted by evilghost
    Please continue to post these gems as you find them, I eagerly await your inspiring reply.
    Certainly.
  7. #67  
    The case study that you so eagerly cited your numbers from must not be biased. They are in no way attempting to plug Microsoft, that would be crazy! I'm sure I can find studies saying that IIS is easily and quickly overpowering the Apache share of webservers, yet we all know that has as much validity to it as the claim that you're not a troll. Do you also buy into the MS propaganda telling you that you should not use Linux because of security concerns and intellectual property issues, all the while enjoying the monthly ritual of Black Tuesday and the patching snafu? Your desire to grab and regurgitate any information without performing any form of analysis on the source easily explains your alarmist mentality.

    I also suppose you're the kind of guy who would ask a criminal if he was guilty, and take it at face value. The librarian told me that joke, was it funny?

    I feel a need to address "Operator Avatar". For an unknown reason the simple presence of that avatar has the ability to draw Jeff Foxworthy style comments from those lacking the most basic form of original thought. Your insinuations have as much merit to them as the "Trustworthy Computing" initive I'm sure you have so eagerly embraced.

    The pseudo-protocols that the Microsoft mediocre programs spume out has nothing to do with RFCs or true Internet connectivity. Man, that Help and Support protocol, and I use that term loosely, was outstanding! Not only did it serve as a launching platform for malware and insecurity, but embedding that protocol into an aged garbageware browser was really a great move.

    I'm quite positive that OTA Tasks, Calendaring, and Contacts won't be the death of PalmOne or the birth of any single company to the magnitude you so describe. I know that's not what you want to hear so please continue to beat your drum loudly and scream the end of the ages are near.

    I've really enjoyed what you've had to say. It's been too long since I've had the joy of laughing at someone so profusely. I will however congratulate you on your certification.

  8.    #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by evilghost
    The case study that you so eagerly cited your numbers from must not be biased. They are in no way attempting to plug Microsoft, that would be crazy!
    See, here's the thing. Feel free to offer some counter-authority for the bias you claim. With your mad linus* skillz, do0d, you'll have no trouble proving the numbers cited were false. (Although in what way, I cannot really imagine. Exactly what bias are you claiming about the numbers?)

    But for now, the numbers stand, and your credibility is on the line.

    (This is the point at which Trolls usually show themselves: A non-Troll will provide some meanigful research and authority for their claims; a Troll just RANTS and RUNS.)

    It's kinda like Darnell's claim that Exchange Activesync was NOT mentioned on the Conference Call (knowing, apparently, that none of you would listen). But I listened, I posted the exact point in time in the recording for you to fastforward to hear the FACT--that Darnell was either (1) wrong, or (2) lying.









    *I meant Linus, not Linux, because you're really more Peanuts than Penguin, if you know what I mean, avatar-boy...

    (nope, I didn't think you did.)
  9. #69  
    Based on http://www.falkotimme.com/projects/s...mtp_032004.php that looks like a huge market share at 114 Million mailboxes. Why is it that less than 2.7% of the mail servers queried were not Exchange? Odd how the majority of MTAs are open-source. I can see why someone like yourself, being a close-minded article-regurgitating alarmist would gravitate towards a closed-source solution much like your closed mind.

    SMTP-Fixup? Man-in-the-middle SMTPd? Or the fact that Microsoft doesn't dominate the mailserver market share like you would have us believe and OTA "Activesync" features play little or no role in the economic driving force of PalmOne and Slowkia.

    Now note that that's only one website, I can cite specific others should I need to, but keep in mind that the site in question isn't in bed with Microsoft technologies and is more likely to be impartial than the one you quoted.

    Keep screaming the sky is falling chicken-little, eventually someone will listen.

  10.    #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by evilghost
    Based on http://www.falkotimme.com/projects/s...mtp_032004.php that looks like a huge market share at 114 Million mailboxes. Why is it that less than 2.7% of the mail servers queried were not Exchange? Odd how the majority of MTAs are open-source. I can see why someone like yourself, being a close-minded article-regurgitating alarmist would gravitate towards a closed-source solution much like your closed mind.

    SMTP-Fixup? Man-in-the-middle SMTPd? Or the fact that Microsoft doesn't dominate the mailserver market share like you would have us believe and OTA "Activesync" features play little or no role in the economic driving force of PalmOne and Slowkia.

    Now note that that's only one website, I can cite specific others should I need to, but keep in mind that the site in question isn't in bed with Microsoft technologies and is more likely to be impartial than the one you quoted.

    Keep screaming the sky is falling chicken-little, eventually someone will listen.
    Ah, grasshopper, when you can snatch the cap from your head, you will be ready to join with humankind.

    A couple of quick review points (that you should probably have comprehended): I never attributed (or correlated) the 114 million mailbox figure to MARKETSHARE. It's a purely internal number, as in Microsoft Exchange Server is hosting 114 million mailboxes. Really, I'll wait right here while you go back and check. (dum de dum dum...oh, you're back, great). See, that whole article I quoted was about internal distribution among the various versions of Exchange Server. Hopefully, you have a slight grasp of that by now. Second, your assignment was, as I recall based on this claim of yours: "I'm sure I can find studies saying that IIS is easily and quickly overpowering the Apache share of webservers..." So you clearly prove yourself a troll on that score.

    Now, then. Let's start simply: I have no problem with the site you cite (<--luv that one!). In fact, I plan to use its data in just a moment. First, I will point you to a couple other data points that will come in useful:

    Email mailboxes to increase to 1.2 billion worldwide by 2005 (CNN)

    Finding MTA Market Share (this guy is right up your alley; he even mentions the site you cited <--ouch, there it is again!)

    Here's a little quote from the shaftek link:

    QUOTE: "Unfortunatly, the small number of servers surveyed, the research methodology and age of data means that these numbers are basically useless. For example, #1, #3, and #5 are too old. For 2004 there is only #2, #4 and #6. Of these, both TTY1.net and Linuks surveys have only 50,000 hosts which were picked under uncertain criteria. The Falko Timme survey includes the largest number (over 400,000) but the results are very divergent from the othersConsidering that back in 2000 DJB estimated the number of mail servers to be 4,000,000 this number is the closest real data. . However, Falko does not include the methodology that was used to pick out the hosts."

    So, to review, the datapoints to use are

    Worldwide total estimated mailboxes: 1.2 billion

    Estimated Exchange mailboxes (specifically "corporate", but it'll have to do, I guess, especially since they are heavily weighted in that direction): 114 million

    Estimated total MTAs: 4,000,000

    Falko's reported "marketshare" of detected Exchange Servers (taking the average for his 2 surveys, based on his reported .07 and .1 results): .85%

    Avatard, I know you are getting a little tired and confused, but we are almost done here.

    Next, a little math (Sorry, I know, go take an asprin first):

    1.2 billion -114 million = 1,086,000,000 non-Exchange mailboxes

    4,000,000 x .85 = 340,000 Exchange Servers

    4,000,000 - 340,000 = 3,660,000 non-Exchange MTAs

    1,086,000,000 / 3,660,000 = 296 mailboxes per non-Exchange MTA

    114,000,000 / 340,000 = 335 mailboxes per Exchange Server

    Wow, that doesn't actually seem very out of line, does it?

    Based primarily on your sources, we can pretty confidently say that there are probably 340,000 or more Exchange Servers, which are hosting an average of no more than 335 mailboxes each, at the 114 million figure. Granted it's all too rough, but I think it holds up well enough (especially in that it tracks YOUR claims of open source domination).

    So again, I have to wonder, do you or don't you believe the 114 million mailbox figure? If you don't why not? If you do, then what was your point?

    To recap, I never said that Microsoft dominates the mailserver market; nor did I say that they dominated the mailbox "market". It is a little embarrassing that you somehow misinterpreted the clear content of my prior message to come to that mistaken conclusion.

    So, to restate my original premise, which you have so clumsily attempted to misconstrue:

    "Now, one quick takeaway from that is 14% of 114 million mailboxes = approximately 16 million mailboxes "eligible" for immediate use via Exchange Activesync NOW and growing to a projected 40 million by the end of 2005."

    Now, gosh, if we only knew how many Treo 650s were in the market (and in the channel) we could draw some reasoned inferences about whether, in your words, "OTA "Activesync" features play little or no role in the economic driving force of PalmOne and Slowkia".

    Hint: I am thinking it plays a pretty big role.
    Last edited by barky81; 04/02/2005 at 12:02 AM. Reason: went a little too far with an insult, sorry. deleted it.
  11. #71  
    barky81 - I'm not sure I follow. Are you trying to say that the Treo 650 cannot synchronise with Microsoft Exchange?
  12. #72  
    Quote Originally Posted by laugher
    barky81 - I'm not sure I follow. Are you trying to say that the Treo 650 cannot synchronise with Microsoft Exchange?
    The posts are too long for me to follow. I must be just plain stupid.

    Basically I have no clue what the barkster is trying to point out. He's gone through so many nails that the coffin must be done by now. Hopefully that means he can move onto another topic.

    fyi, everybody, I snuck a peak at the end of the Star Wars- Revenge of the Sith book that just came out. If anyone wants to know how Padme dies just let me know.
    ELR
    >> Drop by! <<

    Avatar courtesy of ButtUglyJeff!
  13. #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by Otter Emperor
    The posts are too long for me to follow. I must be just plain stupid.

    Basically I have no clue what the barkster is trying to point out. He's gone through so many nails that the coffin must be done by now. Hopefully that means he can move onto another topic.
    I have tried to digest what he was trying to say (to be fair to barky), but I get the feeling the majority of his posts is trying to justify MS Exchange taking over the email world. I couldn't understand what this had to do with the Treo's impending death.

    Treo synchronises with Exchange (directly and indirectly) and it does so over USB, Irda, wireless GPRS (carrier link) and Wifi (local link).

    I guess I'm just as confused as you are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Otter Emperor
    fyi, everybody, I snuck a peak at the end of the Star Wars- Revenge of the Sith book that just came out. If anyone wants to know how Padme dies just let me know.
    No thanks. I want to enjoy every graphic detail of how she will die.
  14. #74  
    I think Barky believes the Treo is incompetent in synchronizing with EAS(or maybe doesn't even offer it after they said they would) and because EAS is supposed be the most prevalent email server for major corporations, this is a problem for the Treo's success. At least that's the jist of what I'm getting. I could be wrong.

    However, how many corporations(big, medium and small) really do use EAS, is my question? That may tell us if Barky is more or less correct. I just found out 2 of my business acquaintances also have the Treo 650 and neither I nor they use EAS, so in my small part of the world, EAS is irrelevant! Although we are all self-employed, so maybe that doesn't count. But this phone is perfect for self-employed people, IMO. Of course, any smartphone might help, including PPC. Getting the Treo is really matter of personal choice for many people, IMO.
    Last edited by The Phone Diva; 04/03/2005 at 03:00 AM. Reason: Clarification.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  15. #75  
    Well, now I'm really confused. EAS either stands for Exchange ActiveSync (Microsoft terminology) or Enterprise Archive Solution. Both are related to Email with the latter addressing the archival management of email. So I'm going to assume barky is talking about Exchange ActiveSync.

    If so, I am still confused because according to PalmOne on their Treo 650 description, they state;

    Quote Originally Posted by Palm One
    Synchronise your corporate Microsoft Exchange email and calendar with built-in Microsoft Exchange ActiveSync®
    In other words, it supports EAS.

    So what's the problem? I don't get it. Can someone please enlighten me?
  16. #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by laugher
    Well, now I'm really confused. EAS either stands for Exchange ActiveSync (Microsoft terminology) or Enterprise Archive Solution. Both are related to Email with the latter addressing the archival management of email. So I'm going to assume barky is talking about Exchange ActiveSync.

    If so, I am still confused because according to PalmOne on their Treo 650 description, they state;

    In other words, it supports EAS.

    So what's the problem? I don't get it. Can someone please enlighten me?
    4 pages later and that's where we're all at. We've played the falacy of composition as well as microscopic analysis of posts, but when it relates back to the original topic we're all left empty handed. If you can discern any value of of the 4 pages of utter worthlessness please let me know. The best I can come up with is this troll decided to come out from under his bridge and attempt to harass the next passer-by.

    In retrospect, this thread was best answered by the 2nd post and if we would have all left this alone the troll would go back under his bridge.

    Edit: Laugher, I wasn't attempting to flame you, but rather Barky81. I quote d you to simply supplement what you were already saying.
  17. #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by laugher
    Well, now I'm really confused. EAS either stands for Exchange ActiveSync (Microsoft terminology) or Enterprise Archive Solution. Both are related to Email with the latter addressing the archival management of email. So I'm going to assume barky is talking about Exchange ActiveSync.

    If so, I am still confused because according to PalmOne on their Treo 650 description, they state;

    In other words, it supports EAS.

    So what's the problem? I don't get it. Can someone please enlighten me?
    I still think Barky is under the impression that Palm isn't doing a good job of supporting it well(if at all). He thinks other OS are much better at it. Read his disputes with Darnell.

    http://discussion.treocentral.com/sh...ighlight=barky
    Last edited by The Phone Diva; 04/03/2005 at 05:12 AM. Reason: Link to other post.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  18. #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by evilghost
    Edit: Laugher, I wasn't attempting to flame you, but rather Barky81. I quote d you to simply supplement what you were already saying.
    No offence taken, evilghost. I am beginning to agree with you. I still don't understand barky81's concern.
  19. #79  
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Treo
    I still think Barky is under the impression that Palm isn't doing a good job of supporting it well(if at all). He thinks other OS are much better at it. Read his disputes with Darnell.
    I don't have a Treo 650 so I can't comment on how well it is done but EAS is supported by Palm and touted as a feature so I can only assume it works. If it doesn't, Palm should be addressing it. It either works or it doesn't. There is no "better" way of doing it as EAS only prescribes a method for email synchronisation.

    I originally thought he (barky81) believed the Treo was dead because other platforms were supporting EAS as well. But that doesn't sound logical at all because Microsoft only recently released this capability (properly done) with MS Exchange 2003. An early release was incorporated into Mobile Information Server but that only supported SMS transmission of email.

    Furthermore, before this technology was available, there were email clients on Palm which directly connects with MS Exchange (with the right connectors installed) to support IMAP, SMTP, etc. So you could have connected to MS Exchange since version 5.x.

    So the point is mute. Connectivity to Exchange could have been done 3 to 4 years ago (or more). The release of EAS only adds native connectivity to MS Exchange via ActiveSync which is just another way of connecting to MS Exchange as far as I'm concerned.

    Whether the Treo is successful or not because it has EAS support doesn't matter. EAS offers no competitive advantage because direct connection to Exchange have been around a LONG TIME. When PalmOne sells a Treo, the commission goes back into its investment in purchasing the EAS module (or a commercial agreement where Microsoft gets a certain percentage as royalty payments).

    Does EAS help sell the Treo? Maybe. But the ultimate buying decision for any corporation is not going to be EAS only. In fact, EAS would be way down the list of pro's for buying the Treo for an enterprise.

    But then there was all this discussion about Microsoft Exchange's world domination (which is why I think the moderators were warning of a possible off-topic conversation).

    There is a lot of unstructured arguments happening here which is why most of us are totally confounded with its direction.
    Last edited by laugher; 04/03/2005 at 06:32 AM.
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