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  1.    #61  
    I want to establish up front that normally, I would just ignore requests such as suskind's, to ask for evidence. The point is, he has provided none himself. To be fair, he should also provide proof that he owns both an XDA and the Treo because I could also come out and claim he is blowing "hot air". The fact that he doesn't own either device just tells me he's point of view is but one-sided.

    Hopefully, this will establish that suskind has been doing nothing but attempting to discredit any input I've added here to date. And to date, he has only shown that he has contributed nothing but noise, noise and more noise...so much so that the moderator needed to step in.

    Finally, I will not honor any other requests for evidence as this is outside the norm. Hopefully, readers who are here to look for information instead of enjoying the acts of a class clown, can continue to do so without the slander that has been injected here.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by laugher; 03/24/2005 at 11:24 PM. Reason: Correction
  2. #62  
    You say PPC applications take up 10 MB of Memory. That's not even close to being true. Post your app list, because I think you estimated, and your estimates are way off.

    In addition, we can tell you which apps can be moved to an SD card, to save space.

    Or, like I said earlier, go back to the Treo. Or the 600x. The size difference is negligible, but the experience is unparalleled. It is the first Convergence device where I dont feel I had to make a compromise.
  3. #63  
    The largest app I have not counting games is 6 MB (Clearvue Office). Including games, that would be Age of Empires at 11 MB, but that is all scenarios, campaigns, manuals, and an intro movie. Bot run fine off the SD card, and the amount of program memory they take up when running is much smaller than storage memory.
  4. #64  
    So if I'm not going to use or add a lot of programs, how much memory do I need for basic use? Phone, contacts, calender, maybe web browsing? Is the installed 22MB good enough?
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  5. #65  
    hey Laughter, U aussie? (judging by your first screenshot)
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
    Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
  6.    #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by ardint
    You say PPC applications take up 10 MB of Memory. That's not even close to being true. Post your app list, because I think you estimated, and your estimates are way off.
    Let me put it into a more detailed context. PocketPC applications do take an average of 10Mb or more of memory. This includes both storage and program execution memory. Palm based applications, on the other hand, do not consume that much memory.

    With the Treo I had, I believed it only offered 24Mb of usable memory. Yet I was still able to house all the applications I need with memory to spare.

    Quote Originally Posted by ardint
    In addition, we can tell you which apps can be moved to an SD card, to save space.
    To be fair, I forgotten to indicate that this was an option. But...

    If you go way back to my original posts, I was not complaining about the lack of memory (which is what some people believed to have contributed to my experiences of lag and performance issues). I kept telling everyone that I had around 18Mb of program memory around and 11Mb of storage memory. This, from my colleagues, should be enough to run what I need.

    ardint - FYI, I already am loading most applications into the SD card. So it isn't consuming much storage memory at all (which is a part of main memory).

    Quote Originally Posted by ardint
    Or, like I said earlier, go back to the Treo. Or the 600x. The size difference is negligible, but the experience is unparalleled. It is the first Convergence device where I dont feel I had to make a compromise.
    I may do that for my next phone but I am willing to give the XDA II Mini the chance it deserves.

    Word is, Palm is looking at injecting another OS into these Treo's. One of the options they are looking at is Windows. I hope they keep their common sense about them if they do because the last thing I want to see is a lack of competition to keep Microsoft on its toes.
  7.    #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Treo
    So if I'm not going to use or add a lot of programs, how much memory do I need for basic use? Phone, contacts, calender, maybe web browsing? Is the installed 22MB good enough?
    Lady Treo, I'm going to assume you are asking about your Treo650.

    If you are just using the Treo 650's built-in applications, then you will be fine with the 22Mb of memory.

    If you plan on just replacing a few applications. For example, I replaced Calendaring and Task Management with the DateBk5 application, then you should also be fine. DateBk5 doesn't take up that much memory from memory but adds a lot of PIM functionality that I could not do without.

    However, if you plan on replacing all of the Treo 650's basic applications with more functionality, i.e. commercial/shareware applications, then the first utility you should get is PowerRun (or something equivalent). This application allows you to move almost any application you have on your Palm's 22Mb of memory into the SD card.

    I found PowerRun to be extremely reliable and robust. There are newer variations of this application that does compression as well but I've seen a few quirks here and there with them.

    Let me know if I'm off on the wrong track. :-)
  8.    #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT
    hey Laughter, U aussie? (judging by your first screenshot)
    Yeah. The other clue you have is by looking at the date and time I have.
  9. #69  
    We all want the same thing. This:

    -Web surfable high speed PDA (If that means IE or Firefox so be it)
    -2 and I say 2 stereo audio jacks. One 3.5 and one 2.5(also be used as backup when your 3.5 breaks cuz you know it will)
    -Support all video formats AND PLAY IN FULL SCREEN. windows, quicktime, realjunk, yada yada
    -Good-Great Battery(I'm willing to sacrifice an hour or 2 for performance)
    -Possible 2 mem card slots. One SD AND CF OR 2 SD
    -Good-Great processor.
    -Good contact/phone/calendar/application manager.

    I think I'd be happy with that. Oh and NO ANTENNA and can you throw in a scratch proof screen thanks.

    Or just this with an SD slot, phone and 3.5 jack.


    http://www.mobilemag.com/content/100/335/C3850/
  10. Iceman6's Avatar
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    #70  
    LOL, the Olympus has everything but a PHONE! What's with that?
  11. #71  
    If after doing that and maybe sliding the memory slider to give yourself a *bit* more program memory, your stability issues should be gone. If not, post an app list, and we'll find the culprit.

    Incidentally its important to note, that when battery life drops to a certain point, like less than 3-5%, the mobile will no longer access the memory card, in order to save space. So be careful when running the battery down (similarly, I noticed it will kill amplification on the BT headset if in a call. I experienced this last night). Also, do not put today plugins on the SD card.
  12. sledgie's Avatar
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    #72  
    QUOTE

    The Palm takes a small memory load because their applications are SMALLER. It goes back to my analogy;

    1. 32Mb of RAM available on Treo; applications takes 2Mb each. This means I can run 16 applications before I run out of memory completely
    2. 64Mb* of RAM available on XDA II Mini; applications takes 10Mb each. This means I can run 6 applications at best before I run out of usable memory

    QUOTE

    wrong wrong wrong. Laugher, while I appreciate your effort in saying all this instead of dropping like a fly when we ask you to post your apps and pics, I would like to know WHERE DO YOU GET THIS INFORMATION FROM???? there is NO program I use that takes up 10mb on my PocketPC. I have a ton of programs, some are ICQ, Agile Messenger, BetaPlayer, GSPlayer, MorphGear, Audible, AdobeReader. I can say the only program that comes CLOSE to taking up 10 megs is Adobe Reader and that is usually because the file it opens up is 3-5megs PDF. so when you say your palm takes 2 megs up each program, explain to me how you can run more than 1 or 2 programs at a time. you can't. the best you can do is run a program like pocket tunes deluxe either streaming audio in the background or an mp3/ogg and run verichat in the background and browse the web. if you have EVER experienced LAG in the treo/palmos world, that is the time when it would be unbearable. I challenge ANYONE here to do that with either the 600 or 650, and you will see that perhaps 2mb per each application is either the UNDERSTATEMENT of the century or else the palmOS (current) was just not made to handle that.

    regardless, if you tell me each program on the PPC platform takes 10 megs of memory, than how can i have more than 10 programs open at a time? your theory or facts, stink. show me some proof and not estimations. do not just give out random "facts/opinions" and claim it is true. those of us that USE a PPC on here KNOW what you are saying is incorrect, which is why so many of us have JUMPED on you. it's just categorically incorrect.
  13. sledgie's Avatar
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    #73  
    juice, that's a interesting looking device, but why is there water all over it. is it water - resistant?

    as for your request on future device, i would add one thing and that is if you are going to have 2 slots, SD in particular, or at least 1 SD slot, make SURE it's integrated databus can transfer the specs it says it can!!! case in point, any SD WIFI card will not get more than ~60k avg (burst sometimes around 90k) on PPC-660x and varients. take another PPC that has a better integration of sd slot and mobo and you will get 150-200k. use the same SD wifi card in a notebook and you will get higher speeds, 500-700k. very disturbing since with technology these days, we are basically walking around with pentium III's in the palm of our hand.

    QUOTE

    Incidentally its important to note, that when battery life drops to a certain point, like less than 3-5%, the mobile will no longer access the memory card, in order to save space. So be careful when running the battery down

    QUOTE

    it's about 13-18% in my tests, on the PPC-660x platform. this is with the brightness at 1 (the lowest before screen going dark)
  14. #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by laugher
    This sounds like all you need is task switching which the Palm can handle. i.e.

    1. Start Laridian application
    2. Switch to desktop and start web browser
    3. Download song lyrics via web browser
    4. Copy song lyrics to clipboard/buffer
    5. Start editor (notepad or whatever)
    6. Paste song lyrics to Editor
    7. Start Wordbook Dictionary application
    8. Look up meaning of word
    9. Switch back to Laridian or song lyrics
    Nope -- it doesn't work that cleanly.
    1. You must have everything running in RAM or in FlashROM. I had so many large programs on my Palm devices which had to run in RAM (e.g. Wireless Sync), that I needed PowerRun for the dictionary and bible apps. PowerRUN must load and put everything back each time. If you have a Treo 650, you definitely need PowerRun or the equivalent. These card managers often get confused when you switch too much resulting in crashes. (Then you need to use CrashPro. )

    2. Even the built-in apps have trouble with task-switching. The Memo app is the only built-in that won't lose it's place. Contacts, Datebook, and Todos (especially the memo field within an entry) will cause you to have to find your place again.

    3. Most importantly, it takes LONGER to switch back and forth and time is critical for most of these tasks.

    Like I said, I'm a Palm OS fan but I appreciate PPC multitasking. The only way around it with the Palm is with the use of hacks. Unfortunately, some of the best hacks were built for Version 4 so you can't use them on the Treo 600 or 650 anyway. For example Benc's (rest his soul) PopSuite of apps which allowed you to bring up contact and memo info from within any app. They can't be used on the newer Palms and there weren't replacements for those apps as of 2/2005 (when I switched to PPCs). There is a popup calculator available but that is all.
  15. #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by laugher
    Lady Treo, I'm going to assume you are asking about your Treo650.

    If you are just using the Treo 650's built-in applications, then you will be fine with the 22Mb of memory.

    If you plan on just replacing a few applications. For example, I replaced Calendaring and Task Management with the DateBk5 application, then you should also be fine. DateBk5 doesn't take up that much memory from memory but adds a lot of PIM functionality that I could not do without.

    However, if you plan on replacing all of the Treo 650's basic applications with more functionality, i.e. commercial/shareware applications, then the first utility you should get is PowerRun (or something equivalent). This application allows you to move almost any application you have on your Palm's 22Mb of memory into the SD card.

    I found PowerRun to be extremely reliable and robust. There are newer variations of this application that does compression as well but I've seen a few quirks here and there with them.

    Let me know if I'm off on the wrong track. :-)
    Thanks for the info, Laugher!
    Yes, I meant the 650.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  16. #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by laugher
    I want to establish up front that normally, I would just ignore requests such as suskind's, to ask for evidence. The point is, he has provided none himself. To be fair, he should also provide proof that he owns both an XDA and the Treo because I could also come out and claim he is blowing "hot air". The fact that he doesn't own either device just tells me he's point of view is but one-sided.

    Hopefully, this will establish that suskind has been doing nothing but attempting to discredit any input I've added here to date. And to date, he has only shown that he has contributed nothing but noise, noise and more noise...so much so that the moderator needed to step in.

    Finally, I will not honor any other requests for evidence as this is outside the norm. Hopefully, readers who are here to look for information instead of enjoying the acts of a class clown, can continue to do so without the slander that has been injected here.
    Touché mate; but this confounds the conundrum: not owning the devices would have been a dandy explanation for your perplexing posts.
    You may be right; I may be crazy. But, the Treo may be just the device I've been looking for.
  17. #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by laugher
    Yeah. The other clue you have is by looking at the date and time I have.
    Cool, I used to live in Sydney (Lane Cove) where are you at?
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
    Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
  18.    #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by ardint
    If after doing that and maybe sliding the memory slider to give yourself a *bit* more program memory, your stability issues should be gone. If not, post an app list, and we'll find the culprit.
    I'll try that. If anyone wants to see my app list. I think its in one or two of those bitmaps I posted.

    Quote Originally Posted by ardint
    Incidentally its important to note, that when battery life drops to a certain point, like less than 3-5%, the mobile will no longer access the memory card, in order to save space. So be careful when running the battery down (similarly, I noticed it will kill amplification on the BT headset if in a call. I experienced this last night). Also, do not put today plugins on the SD card.
    I'll keep that tip in mind. Thanks.
    Last edited by laugher; 03/25/2005 at 08:31 PM. Reason: formatting
  19.    #79  
    Quote Originally Posted by sledgie
    there is NO program I use that takes up 10mb on my PocketPC. I have a ton of programs, some are ICQ, Agile Messenger, BetaPlayer, GSPlayer, MorphGear, Audible, AdobeReader. I can say the only program that comes CLOSE to taking up 10 megs is Adobe Reader and that is usually because the file it opens up is 3-5megs PDF.
    Let me answer that with another quote from a response I sent to ardint;
    Quote Originally Posted by laugher
    Let me put it into a more detailed context. PocketPC applications do take an average of 10Mb or more of memory. This includes both storage and program execution memory. Palm based applications, on the other hand, do not consume that much memory.
    I believe that addresses why I said what I said.
    Quote Originally Posted by sledgie
    so when you say your palm takes 2 megs up each program, explain to me how you can run more than 1 or 2 programs at a time.
    I'm not sure I follow. Are you trying to say the Palm can't task switch?
    Quote Originally Posted by sledgie
    I challenge ANYONE here to do that with either the 600 or 650, and you will see that perhaps 2mb per each application is either the UNDERSTATEMENT of the century or else the palmOS (current) was just not made to handle that.
    I rise to this challenge and present to you, the actual sizes of some of the applications from the Palm world. See attached bitmaps and you will note the following;

    1. Datebk5, a PIM application that is similar to Agenda Fusion 7 and Pocket Informant. Note the PRC files which is all that gets copied to your Palm memory. Going down the list, I have 680K + 80K + 8K (rounding up all the file sizes), I have a total of 768K. Unless the rules of mathematics have changed, that is well under 2Mb. This zip file is the ACTUAL zip file I downloaded from the developer's website.
    2. Bejewled. I chose this because we have a PocketPC equivalent out there. Both are developed by the same company (I think its Astraware from memory). Look at the sizes of all PRC and PDB (data) files for this game. 280K + 50K + 160K + 180K = 670K.


    Quote Originally Posted by sledgie
    regardless, if you tell me each program on the PPC platform takes 10 megs of memory, than how can i have more than 10 programs open at a time?
    I think I addressed your issue here with a quote from a past conversation I had with ardint. See above.

    Quote Originally Posted by sledgie
    do not just give out random "facts/opinions" and claim it is true. those of us that USE a PPC on here KNOW what you are saying is incorrect, which is why so many of us have JUMPED on you. it's just categorically incorrect.
    I am presenting the facts to you in another way here. Screenshots of actual Palm installation files.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by laugher; 03/25/2005 at 08:29 PM. Reason: toning it down
  20.    #80  
    Quote Originally Posted by Beryl
    Nope -- it doesn't work that cleanly.
    I don't have your applications so I will take your word for it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beryl
    1. You must have everything running in RAM or in FlashROM. I had so many large programs on my Palm devices which had to run in RAM (e.g. Wireless Sync), that I needed PowerRun for the dictionary and bible apps. PowerRUN must load and put everything back each time. If you have a Treo 650, you definitely need PowerRun or the equivalent. These card managers often get confused when you switch too much resulting in crashes. (Then you need to use CrashPro. )
    I have never had a crash resulting from the use of PoweRun. Your applications must be fairly large but I doubt PowerRun is the culprit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beryl
    2. Even the built-in apps have trouble with task-switching. The Memo app is the only built-in that won't lose it's place. Contacts, Datebook, and Todos (especially the memo field within an entry) will cause you to have to find your place again.
    Hmm...you could be right for the default apps. I haven't had that problem with some shareware/commercial apps. Could be something we can inject into PalmOne's feedback channels.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beryl
    3. Most importantly, it takes LONGER to switch back and forth and time is critical for most of these tasks.
    I am assuming you are talking about switching back/forth using PowerRun. This all depends on the size of your apps. Judging from what you're telling me, I can see why. With my apps, they take 1 to 2 seconds at most. With the faster processors and SD drives introduced to Palm PDAs these days, it might have improved since then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beryl
    Like I said, I'm a Palm OS fan but I appreciate PPC multitasking. The only way around it with the Palm is with the use of hacks. Unfortunately, some of the best hacks were built for Version 4 so you can't use them on the Treo 600 or 650 anyway. For example Benc's (rest his soul) PopSuite of apps which allowed you to bring up contact and memo info from within any app. They can't be used on the newer Palms and there weren't replacements for those apps as of 2/2005 (when I switched to PPCs). There is a popup calculator available but that is all.
    I agree. I would have loved to see some hacks that were available back in the stone ages but some of them are obsolete now. I can't remember which ones without going to the trouble of charging my Treo again and re-syncing.
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