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  1. #21  
    Isnt the Palm Voice Dial only a 30 day trial out of the box? Don't you have to "train" its voicedial? You must first TRY MS Voice command before you compare it to anything else. It is by far the best voice activation software I have ever seen. Doesn't require any training.

    I would hardly consider any of the multimedia features of the Palm even remotely close to what the PPC offerings are. PPC's come with built in Windows Media player which plays many audio/video file formats.

    As far as memory goes, I think its funny that this is even being compared. The Treo works almost EXACTLY the same way as a PPC out of the box. As you open applications it leaves them OPEN. Only when memory starts to get low does it start to close down in-active applications. The PPC and palm work the same here. I think the underlining problem here is that most people who have a PPC actually USE it for more than the built in applications and thus they use more than simple applications. This is when application closer utilties etc become handy.

    PLEASE DON'T SPEAK ABOUT RELIABILITY. Its a statistical fact that Palm has one of the highest RMA rate (return rate for failure) than any other manufacture out there. This isnt just based on volume, this is in percentage. I had my concerns about a slider on my PDA2k, but I have had this thing since last october and I havnt had a single problem. On the contrast I buy Treo's for my company and have personally seen a return rate of AT LEAST 2 returns per phone!!! I had to personally return my Treo 600 over 7 times!!
  2. #22  
    If you like the Treo, get it, enjoy it, sleep with it. If you like a PPC flavored phone, do the same. I've seen enough pissing contests about this subject. It reminds me of democrats vs. republicans political chat (lots of barking, but no substance, and generally negative outcome)
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by TonyH
    If you like the Treo, get it, enjoy it, sleep with it. If you like a PPC flavored phone, do the same. I've seen enough pissing contests about this subject. It reminds me of democrats vs. republicans political chat (lots of barking, but no substance, and generally negative outcome)
    True that.
  4. #24  
    the treo voice dial you do not need to train. it is a 14 day trial and after that it's $15 or something like that and it only dials contacts...
    MS voice dial does not need training either and it controls the entire operating system (or at least most of it). the guy in my office who has an audiovox 6600 controls media player, internet explorer, everything... it announces who is calling if you want it to... you can ask it what song is playing and it announces it (which sounds funny when it's P.I.M.P by 50 cent...), you can ask when your next appointment is, what time it is, what your battery is at... lots of stuff
    Treo 800w 8/08
    Nokia N800
    previously: Treo 700wx 12/06, Sprint 6700 3/06; Treo 650 11/04; Treo 600 1/04 (gone); Samsung i500 (gone); Hitachi G1000 11/03 (gone); Nokia 7110 5/00(best phone ever)
  5.    #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenundrum
    the treo voice dial you do not need to train. it is a 14 day trial and after that it's $15 or something like that and it only dials contacts...
    Confirmed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenundrum
    MS voice dial does not need training either and it controls the entire operating system (or at least most of it). the guy in my office who has an audiovox 6600 controls media player, internet explorer, everything... it announces who is calling if you want it to... you can ask it what song is playing and it announces it (which sounds funny when it's P.I.M.P by 50 cent...), you can ask when your next appointment is, what time it is, what your battery is at... lots of stuff
    Also confirmed. I have installed it here and am using it. It is quite impressive given the previous lack of voice control on PDA devices and the traditional resources the technology used to consume.

    Without giving it a whole review in this thread (we should probably start another thread on VoiceCommand), I found there were a lot of voice functions that are overkill. For example, if I were commuting to work with a crowd of people around me, I wouldn't start asking my PDA what time it is while it announces it out loud when I can look at my watch, etc. But that's just me I guess.

    As a result, I find the USD$39.95 price tag a bit steep.
  6.    #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by farzonalmaneih
    You must first TRY MS Voice command before you compare it to anything else. It is by far the best voice activation software I have ever seen. Doesn't require any training.
    Having looked at it myself, I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by farzonalmaneih
    I would hardly consider any of the multimedia features of the Palm even remotely close to what the PPC offerings are. PPC's come with built in Windows Media player which plays many audio/video file formats.
    Ahh...now we are going into an area which I clarified earlier. Most normal business people, like me, don't pay too much emphasis on multimedia effects and features of a PDA. I think I stated my position around this because someone took a snipe at the fact that I was actually happy with the Treo 600's display.

    Quote Originally Posted by farzonalmaneih
    As far as memory goes, I think its funny that this is even being compared. The Treo works almost EXACTLY the same way as a PPC out of the box. As you open applications it leaves them OPEN. Only when memory starts to get low does it start to close down in-active applications. The PPC and palm work the same here. I think the underlining problem here is that most people who have a PPC actually USE it for more than the built in applications and thus they use more than simple applications. This is when application closer utilties etc become handy.
    I do not agree with this point on two fronts.

    Firstly, I use the Palm-based Treo's functionalities as much as I use the XDA II Mini's functionalities. I have applications to match those that I had when I owned the Treo, achieving the same level of productivity I had. Not any more or less with either device. The only difference is that the memory footprint of the Palm's applications are much smaller.

    Secondly, I am not merely pointing out the requirement to close applications. I am also pointing out the fact that as applications use memory on a PPC environment, the applications tend not to release that extra memory it consumed for a particular function within the application. When you do close the application, it does release most of the memory consumed, but not all of it. This explains the symptom I am seeing where there is a slow but certain decline in available memory as time goes by.

    I don't see this symptom on Palm based PDAs.

    I am not sure whether this is the application developer's fault or whether this is a Windows Mobile Edition's issue but I am inclined to think the latter as it happens with most of the applications I use. The applications I install on my XDA are given some of the highest ratings in shopping portals such as Handango and Pocketgear. Some of them even have the Certified logo on them but this symptom is still very visible in their applications.

    Quote Originally Posted by farzonalmaneih
    PLEASE DON'T SPEAK ABOUT RELIABILITY. Its a statistical fact that Palm has one of the highest RMA rate (return rate for failure) than any other manufacture out there. This isnt just based on volume, this is in percentage. I had my concerns about a slider on my PDA2k, but I have had this thing since last october and I havnt had a single problem. On the contrast I buy Treo's for my company and have personally seen a return rate of AT LEAST 2 returns per phone!!! I had to personally return my Treo 600 over 7 times!!
    Ok. I accept this. But...

    I have never had to return my Treo. I did have some initial issues with instability with the Treo 600 but ever since they released the new BIOS, those problems all went away.

    My XDA II Mini has the latest BIOS and the latest Windows Mobile Edition operating system. I've had it just over 3 months now and I am still seeing lag in some applications from time to time. This sometimes leads to the OS or an application not responding. Soft/Hard Reset fixes it but I've had to do it more often with the XDA than with the Palm-based Treo 600.
  7. #27  
    I would have to say that there IS a direct correlation with the ability to close applications and the sluggish performance that you describe on your PPC. Perhaps you should try another application besides PocketPlus, a simple one such as Magic Button. I've heard that sometimes Pocketplus can be the culprit of slow performance on a PPC. I wouldn't use Windows XP without the ability to close applications, so why should it be any different on Windows Mobile?


    Quote Originally Posted by laugher
    Back to applications; Don't let the fancy graphics of the XDA fool you. Those kinds of applications takes up a lot of memory. You can load most of them up on the SD card but it still chews memory in main memory because of the inherent flaws of the Windows OS.
    I guess that it's a good thing that these PPC's have alot more than 32MB of memory. Can you clarify more about the inherent flaws of the windows OS you're referring to? How much more memory does a typical PPC applications take up versus a similar Palm app? I guess that was never a question I asked myself, because it never seemed to be an issue for me. But it does seem to significant problem for you. Have you utilized all 64MB of your RAM?

    Quote Originally Posted by laugher
    As for variety? I am a regular shopper at Palmgear, Handango and Pocketgear. I can tell you now; the Palm OS has a LOT more variety and a LOT more quality software than the Pocket PC range. Beware of die-hards who try to tell you otherwise.
    If there exists a great program such as Voice Command that you didn't know about (and I thought everyone with a PPC was aware of that app), imagine all of the other software that's probably out there that you're not aware of. I wasn't a regular shopper at Handango and pocketgear, and I didn't own a PPC, and even I knew about Microsoft Voice Command.

    Quote Originally Posted by laugher

    The thing I noticed the most was that you had to pull out your stylus for the XDA for most operations.
    That must have been a big surprise. Were you also shocked it didn't have a keyboard?
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by laugher
    I find the USD$39.95 price tag a bit steep.
    I love MS VC as well. It worked great from the first time I used it after installing it. As for the price, if you shop around you can find it cheaper. I bought mine for $29.
  9.    #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by vandoc
    I would have to say that there IS a direct correlation with the ability to close applications and the sluggish performance that you describe on your PPC. Perhaps you should try another application besides PocketPlus, a simple one such as Magic Button.
    I have tried Magic Button. It didn't make a difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by vandoc
    I've heard that sometimes Pocketplus can be the culprit of slow performance on a PPC. I wouldn't use Windows XP without the ability to close applications, so why should it be any different on Windows Mobile?
    Nobody is trying to say you shouldn't have a "Close Application" feature. What I am trying to get across is that no matter how you close the application on the PPC, there is still a resultant available memory loss.

    The other side of the coin is that on the Palm based PDAs, closing applications becomes necessary only when you chew up a LOT of memory. Such symptoms normally occurs when you have started a number of very large applications, such as hi-res graphics intensive games. For normal productivity software, I have never been required to close them.

    Quote Originally Posted by vandoc
    I guess that it's a good thing that these PPC's have alot more than 32MB of memory.
    That's all relative. If I had 64Mb of RAM on a PPC but my applications chew up 10Mb per application on startup, it wouldn't go very far would it? For the Palm based OS, they normally come with 32Mb of RAM (or even less) but their equivalent productivity applications only consume 2 to 4Mb and only rarely do you get one that chews up 6Mb which I think the Avantgo application does. This is all typical from my experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by vandoc
    How much more memory does a typical PPC applications take up versus a similar Palm app?
    See my response above.

    Quote Originally Posted by vandoc
    I guess that was never a question I asked myself, because it never seemed to be an issue for me. But it does seem to significant problem for you. Have you utilized all 64MB of your RAM?
    No. The fact that I haven't consumed all 64Mb of my memory and still run into performance or hanging issues suggests a potential that there is a problem with the Windows Mobile Edition OS.

    Quote Originally Posted by vandoc
    If there exists a great program such as Voice Command that you didn't know about (and I thought everyone with a PPC was aware of that app), imagine all of the other software that's probably out there that you're not aware of. I wasn't a regular shopper at Handango and pocketgear, and I didn't own a PPC, and even I knew about Microsoft Voice Command.
    I was aware of it. I just didn't bother with it because historically, voice recognition software on PDAs in general has been pretty disappointing. I only tried VoiceCommand v1.5 because it was raved about as the BEST voice software for the PDA. After trying it, I have to agree. But I still wouldn't fork out USD$39.95 for it because I still can't find the justification for it.

    Further, VoiceCommand isn't being promoted well by Handango and not promoted at all at Pocketgear (you won't even find it on their items list). VoiceCommand is heavily promoted on the Microsoft Windows Mobile website (a huge surprise there).

    Quote Originally Posted by vandoc
    That must have been a big surprise. Were you also shocked it didn't have a keyboard?
    This comment was related to the stylus. I'll leave the keyboard out of my response because this was simply a smug remark.

    My comment was justified because I was comparing my experiences with the Treo 600 and my current PDA/phone, XDA II Mini. Both have a stylus. It wouldn't be a good review if I left the fact that you had to pull out the stylus a lot for the XDA now, wouldn't it?

    The Treo 600 does away with the need to pull it out for almost all functions because it has buttons and a keyboard. That was also one of the reasons why I decided the Palm based Treo 600 and now the 650, is a perfect marriage of PDA and Phone.

    With that out of the way, I like to make a general observation. I think its great that there are A LOT of people here who will stick up for their PDA. In this case, its for their Microsoft Windows Mobile Edition variety. But what I find fascinating and quite humorous is that these people are also very emotional (yes, it turns into a picture that looks like a political debate). Not only that, we seem to have more Windows supporters on a "TREO"-centric website here than we have of Treo users engaging in this debate.

    Microsoft must be doing well in the marketing department if we are surrounded by Microsoft fanatics here.

    I want to state my position VERY CLEARLY. I am stating the disadvantages I am seeing with my move to the Windows-based XDA II Mini. All these negatives can be rectified. The addition of a keyboard similar to that of a Treo would help reduce the stylus requirement, for example.

    Take the review in the light I meant for it. Don't take it as me slandering the Microsoft options because if I was anti-Microsoft to begin with, I wouldn't have purchased the iPaq's (in the past) and my current PDA/Phone, the O2 XDA II Mini.
    Last edited by laugher; 03/22/2005 at 08:54 PM.
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by laugher
    Firstly, I use the Palm-based Treo's functionalities as much as I use the XDA II Mini's functionalities. I have applications to match those that I had when I owned the Treo, achieving the same level of productivity I had. Not any more or less with either device. The only difference is that the memory footprint of the Palm's applications are much smaller.
    WHAT functionalities? WHAT applications?

    NAME them!
  11. #31  
    must be all the 'graphics intensive games' he is 'too professional' to be using - oops - hope that wasn't 'slander'
  12. #32  
    I just laughed my a$$ off! 8>
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by sloop
    must be all the 'graphics intensive games' he is 'too professional' to be using - oops - hope that wasn't 'slander'
    with 64MB ram, not counting user accessible ROM, he has at least some 50-55MB of space he can play with.

    Even if he install the biggest of the biggest PALM OS games, he can fit more than 2 dozen games. (Trust me, there aren't that many game that can run on treo 600 either, but I take games that run on Tungsten)

    I just want to know what software he is running that makes him feel not having enough memory.

    If he start talking .mp3 and .mpeg inside RAM can somebody smack him for me please? thanks.
  14.    #34  
    Its obvious we have some very excited people here that just don't read. I'll re-quote what I said that will address your general question of why I am using so much memory;

    Quote Originally Posted by Laugher
    No. The fact that I haven't consumed all 64Mb of my memory and still run into performance or hanging issues suggests a potential that there is a problem with the Windows Mobile Edition OS.
    In other words, I am not using all my memory. I have 18Mb of memory for running applications and 16Mb of available storage memory remaining and I am still running into lag/performance problems.
  15. #35  
    1. Post your app list
    2. post your mem log
    Last edited by ToolkiT; 03/24/2005 at 03:47 AM.
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by suskind
    1. Post your app list
    2. post your mem log
    3. otherwise stfu.
    I like following all these 'debates' but I dont understand why we have to talk like this... "otherwise stfu".

    There is no reason why we cant disagree and be respectful at the same time.
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    I like following all these 'debates' but I dont understand why we have to talk like this... "otherwise stfu".

    There is no reason why we cant disagree and be respectful at the same time.
    because my dear. It's show me time. It's a bit like discussing the metaphysic of cheese cake topping without ever eating a cheese cake before.

    He can blather all he wants about 'missing' memory. But if he can't show what's inside his mini, he might as well making the whole thing up, something not unheard of in palmie heads circle.

    as of now, I even doubt he owns mini, let alone knows what he is talking about.
  18. #38  
    It makes so much more sense with what you just said above versus "...or stfu." Thanks. (and you're right...some do say things that they can't support.)
    Palm III-->Palm IIIxe-->Palm 505-->Samsung i300-->Treo 600-->PPC 6600-->Treo 650-->Treo 700wx-->BB Pearl--> BB Curve

  19. #39  
    This whole post smacks of Palm fanboyism. And it upsets me because there are plenty of people who read these threads but dont post. I know because I'm one of those people, and I've been on this board since my Treo 300, but my post count doesn't reflect that. Those people may be misled by your posts, and I would hate to see someone go with a product that is inferior for their needs just because of the rampant bias towards one platform or another.

    Here's the deal. You claim the Treo with its keyboard is the "perfect marriage" of PDA and phone. I agree that a keyboard is essential to a good convergence device.

    Why then, did you go with the mini? It has no keyboard. How else did you expect to use the device? Thats like knocking a Zire for not being "one handed friendly!"

    If you have had Ipaqs in the past, then you know what your memory needs are. Why did you get a device with 64MB? Yes Palm programs are smaller. But my PPC does FAR more than my 650, and while posting this, I have Media Player playing in the background, Pocket Informant minimzed, Messaging minimzed for background email fetching, MSN Messenger minimized, Photo Contacts always running for FLAWLESS WMA ringtones (no resets like I had with lightwav, and it was free), and I still have no stability or performance issues with 24 MB storage and 30 MB program memory available.

    Yes I'm a power user, but I NEVER drop below 20 MB program memory available.

    My point is simple. If you are unhappy with your device, go back to the Treo. But dont blame the platform for what is clearly user error - the error of buying a device that didnt meet your needs (keyboard and memory). Because someone might start doing their own homework for their next phone (which you should have done), read your posts and pass up what might be just perfect for them.
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by t2gungho
    I like following all these 'debates' but I dont understand why we have to talk like this... "otherwise stfu".

    There is no reason why we cant disagree and be respectful at the same time.
    I agree. I'm new here, but I didn't really see anything wrong with what laugher has been saying. Am I missing something? I'm not a tech pro like most of the people here. I'm just an average user. But to me it sounded like he was talking about HIS experiences, not saying this is going to be true for everyone.

    I need 2 smartphones and was considering getting a PPC as the 2nd one. So I appreciate the comparison. I can see problems with Windows Mobile because Windows installed on PC always has a lot of problems. I still would like to try a PPC just to see for myself, though.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
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