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  1. #121  
    Quote Originally Posted by gfunkmagic
    From what I understand, in Scott's mockup the 320x480 screen can twist/flip out like the Clie UX series. The 9500 can't do that...
    Actually, my now old mockup does have a twist/flip hinge, but I've been having second thoughts as to whether such a complex design is necessary. I have another, somewhat simpler, design that I need to get around to mocking up.

    The biggest difference between my mockup and the Nokia 9500 (aside from the OS) would be size. The Nokia 9500 was way too big. My design would only be slightly larger than the Treo 600 but would offer a 480x320 screen and comparitively huge thumbboard while also offering a larger buttoned, simpler traditional phone keypad (when closed). IMO, this is the best of all worlds.

    Scott
    Now THIS is the future of smartphones.
  2. #122  
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott R
    My iPaq 3630 wasn't a bad size (I still own it tucked into a drawer somewhere, BTW). The problem is that it had no external memory storage built-in. For a simple Palm OS PIM-only device, that's workable, but it's a major problem for a multimedia-capable device. And once you added the necessary sleeve to enable external memory storage, yes, it was too big. Way too big. My Zodiac, OTOH, can be easily pocketed very comfortably (partially thanks to the built-in thin flip-cover, something none of the PPC makers still can seem to figure out) and has not one, but two, SD slots built-in. So, yes, the Zodiac is sized just fine compared to my old iPaq, thanks.
    whoa, did you see the amount of hot gas just come out? Dude, think renewable energy!

    And what does this prove, again? So you're saying that RIM has decided that people don't want thumbboard-equipped devices? And they would be making this decision based on what? The fact that their non-thumbboard devices sell much better than their thumbboard devices? Oh wait, they don't make any devices without thumbboards and the only reason they're doing so well is because they've been successful at selling the devices that they do make (which happen to have thumbboards).

    No, RIM is experimenting with diversity. There's nothing wrong with that. Some people may not want a smartphone with a thumbboard. I'm sure that there's a segment of their market that only cares about receiving their email and doesn't want/need to actually respond to their email. That's fine. But if they stop making thumbboard-equipped devices altogether, they'll be in for a rude awakening. BTW, I'm of the opinion that their best device ever was their first one. That device was sized like a pager (smaller than their current rather bulky devices), yet the thumbboard was wider (and, hence, more comfortable to use) than the current models.
    1. company doesn't make decission based on 'let's have diversity for diversity sake'.
    2. thumbpad at the size of treo600 is rediculous. If Rimm wants smaller dvice they have to go to different keyboard design. (hence their choice of multi press keys)
    3. Rimm just happens to be the biggest wireless email device company. They know wireless email device better than anybody else. Treo600 ain't it.

    I don't know how well the h4350 is doing. I imagine not too well as it's a rather bulky device. But I believe that the T|C has probably done quite well. It's been on the market for a long while now and is still a non-clearance model. I believe it's also one of the first devices to get the now rarer Palm OS updates, which suggests that there's a significant and important userbase that palmOne feels compelled to keep happy. Personally, I feel that even this device's thumbboard is too small.
    You don't know how well T|C is doing. You are just conjecturing out of your a55.

    Actually yes. A dual-twist hinge a la Sony UX-series is trickier, but a basic clamshell should be pretty simple to pull off.
    Scott
    Oh so now Palmone suddenly know how to make magnesium casing with hinge built into it? lol. Just because some company how to do it doesn't mean Palmone has the capability. What's next? NASA has PDA that can fly to space, hence Palmone should be able to pull that off too?
  3. #123  
    Quote Originally Posted by bilbo__baggins
    Nokia makes cheap and nasty phones with annoying ringtones. Just because they sell lots of them doesn't mean they're good. When I have considered Nokia phones in the past there have always been very good reasons not to buy one (poor battery life, lack of bluetoooth, large size compared to other brands etc. etc.).

    In the UK I think they're popular because people got used to that crumby interface and were too scared to try something different.
    I believe the point of the statement is that Nokia has close to $15 billion in the bank, and that you should never underestimated a competitor with that kind of resources. Just ask anyone competing against Microsoft today. And with PalmOne having become, at this point, essentially a one product company in the Treo, they are extremely vulnerable to a screw-up, mis-step or another company trumping them - Nokia or any of the other phone providers.
  4. #124  
    why did one analyst's rating on nokia's ugly attempt at competing with the treo send plmo down 11%?!
    the 9500 is pretty near the ugliest phone out there. how is it possible for one speculative report to do that damage to the stock price and sustain itself like it has? i would have thought the price would have returned to at least $36 by now!
    it may have more features, but its form factor will kill it. anyone else feel this way?
  5. #125  
    Nokia could wipe the Treo out...if tT
  6. #126  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214
    why did one analyst's rating on nokia's ugly attempt at competing with the treo send plmo down 11%?!
    the 9500 is pretty near the ugliest phone out there. how is it possible for one speculative report to do that damage to the stock price and sustain itself like it has? i would have thought the price would have returned to at least $36 by now!
    it may have more features, but its form factor will kill it. anyone else feel this way?
    because PLMO is highly manipulated by the big boys.
  7. #127  
    Quote Originally Posted by treo-mike
    I don't think the issue is with a healthy discussion of Treo competition. I think it is with people who relentlessly throw out useless and ubsubstantiated claims or have no interest in discussion and rather just telling everyone how stupid they are for owning a Treo. I think the key word in your quote is "knowingly". There are some here that make comments that make me wonder if they have even touched a Treo before
    which one is unsubstantiated?
    1. WiFi will be a selling point for next generation smartphone. ACE doesn't have it.
    2. Thumbpad may not be as important as palmone like to think. Case and point 'Charm' by Rimm and lesson from T|C & h4350.
    3. Microsoft offers a significant models that will certainly compete against treo600 in term of spec, form factors and features. (h6300, Mpx, XDAIII, h6100, Magician, XDA IV)
    4. POS marketshare has been consistently in decline and the brand base has now shrink to one big player and few insignificant no brands.

    Want to discuss competition? Sure. Nokia is a powerhouse in the mobile world and it would worry me if I were in the field. However, you can't compare Treo sales to Nokia sales. A more fair comparison would be Nokia smart phone sales to Treo sales. The smartphone (IMHO) is still very much a different segment of the market than the "free" throw away phones that are sold in malls everwhere nowadays. You can't deny the success of the Treo. It is the only phone to be sold be all major carriers (quite a feat). It is also pretty much responsible for turning PalmOne's financial results around. It's adoption rate in the corporate world also proves that it's an accepted design...keyboard and all. Is it the best solution. Probably not. Time will tell who will be successful in the SmartPhone segment, but you can't deny that PalmOne has a good headstart in the market.
    -Nokia sell twice as many series 60/feature phone than entire Palm OS PDA. see Q2 global marketshare. When we only count treo600, it probably doesn't even break margin of error.

    -Corporate adoption rate? what corporate adoption rate? Show number. Just because you are in a corporation and you buy a treo 600 doesn't mean jack. It's anecdotal.
    Last edited by suskind; 09/05/2004 at 10:33 PM.
  8. #128  
    brighthand has an article warning palmone to get serious about wireless (meaning wifi ) or it will be passed by ppcs.
    you know i am a palmone fan, but i really cant help being angry at their being one step behind! when there is so much technology available out there and you know very well the market wants it, why do they sell you short on certain features when you know they could include them all?
    why does palmone play the minimalist game? its infuriating and im beginning to lose patience.
    i love their products. believe me. but it concerns me that they are laying on their laurels vs making devices that have it all. why does palmone do this?
  9. #129  
    I realize they are trying to keep their treo's at the $599 range so that the consumers will buy it and they can profit. its possible that including all the wifi, hir res, 128 mb ram, 624 mhz processors combined might make it impossible for them to sell the treo now at $599 and make a profit after buying these expensive components for assembly into the device.
    but seriously, the crowds are clamoring for the features. they are clamoring loudly enough that I think they would be willing to pay the extra $200 or so for a device that would integrate EVERYTHING!
    I honestly think if they created a line of new treos mid range (ace) and hi end ( rowdy) that has wifi, 128 mb ram, 624 mhz processor, wifi, 480 x 320 res screen, they would conquer the entire smartphone market as we know it!
    period. why do they not do this?
  10. #130  
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott R
    Actually, my now old mockup does have a twist/flip hinge, but I've been having second thoughts as to whether such a complex design is necessary. I have another, somewhat simpler, design that I need to get around to mocking up.

    The biggest difference between my mockup and the Nokia 9500 (aside from the OS) would be size. The Nokia 9500 was way too big. My design would only be slightly larger than the Treo 600 but would offer a 480x320 screen and comparitively huge thumbboard while also offering a larger buttoned, simpler traditional phone keypad (when closed). IMO, this is the best of all worlds.

    Scott

    Scott, let me guess...something like the Moto A630 design? Yeah, that would be an form factor to use with PalmOS b/c it would allow traditional candy bar for phone use and then also a wide thumbboard and 480x320 landscape screen for pda funtionality... Too bad the specs on the A630 itself are soo crappy...

    Anyway, I also agree the flip and twist screen design on your original mockup may be overly complicated. The main reason it that after an extended period of using the Treo600, I've become accustomed to having easy access to the thumbboard on the front of the device. That is...I don't think I would like a device that I would have to twist/flip or rotate in order to access the thumbboard. IMO, the thumbboard/keypad should always be on the face of the device b/c it is the interface most often accessed by the user. Also, I think a separate numeric keypad would be redundant and wasteful in terms of space, expecially since the numeric keypad is already integrated onto the Treo thumbboard. I realize that many users do not like this design b/c of the small size of the keys, buy I've gotton accustomed to it and no longer find it a problem. Of course ymmv... Basically, what I really want is a Tugsten-like slider design integrated into the Treo like this mockup created by Jake Ehrlich. With this design, the Treo would maitain the basic candy bar design but also allow for a 320x480 rez stretch screen...
    _________________
    aka Gfunkmagic

    Current device: Palm Pre
    Device graveyard: Palm Vx, Cassiopeia E100, LG Phenom HPC, Palm M515, Treo 300, Treo 600, Treo 650, Treo 700p, Axim X50v, Treo 800w



    Please don't PM me about my avatar. For more info go here.

    Restore your Pre to factory settings using webos doctor and follow these instructions
  11. #131  
    Quote Originally Posted by suskind
    whoa, did you see the amount of hot gas just come out? Dude, think renewable energy!

    You don't know how well T|C is doing. You are just conjecturing out of your a55.
    Sorta sounds like what you're doing since you obviously don't have any facts to back up the assertion of TC or h4350 sales...
    _________________
    aka Gfunkmagic

    Current device: Palm Pre
    Device graveyard: Palm Vx, Cassiopeia E100, LG Phenom HPC, Palm M515, Treo 300, Treo 600, Treo 650, Treo 700p, Axim X50v, Treo 800w



    Please don't PM me about my avatar. For more info go here.

    Restore your Pre to factory settings using webos doctor and follow these instructions
  12. #132  
    that would be perfect, gfunk. I think this would max out real estate to the extreme, and come through with the types of features that can take attention away from the ppcs.
  13. #133  
    Quote Originally Posted by suskind
    1. company doesn't make decission based on 'let's have diversity for diversity sake'.
    Again, can you point me to an article claiming that RIM is moving completely towards this multi-function phone keypad and away from having full QWERTY thumbboards? Right, I didn't think so. This is not diversity for diversity sake. It's diversifying your offerings to appeal to other market segments. Their bread and butter is still the full thumbboard devices.
    Quote Originally Posted by suskind
    2. thumbpad at the size of treo600 is rediculous. If Rimm wants smaller dvice they have to go to different keyboard design. (hence their choice of multi press keys)
    Speaking of an awful design. If people have trouble pressing individual Treo 600 keys, how easy will it be for them to accurately get the letters they want on this new RIM design? So now I have to push the number four but tilt the key to the right while doing so to get the letter I want? Yeah, that'll be much less error-prone than the Treo 600's small thumbboard. [insert crazy emoticon]
    Quote Originally Posted by suskind
    3. Rimm just happens to be the biggest wireless email device company. They know wireless email device better than anybody else. Treo600 ain't it.
    And palmOne still has sold more PDAs than anyone else, so I guess that means you'll agree that they know PDAs better than anyone else and what everyone wants and doesn't want?

    Quote Originally Posted by suskind
    You don't know how well T|C is doing. You are just conjecturing out of your a55.
    No, you're the one who's doing the conjecturing. I just know that the T|C has been selling for a long, long time now and palmOne just recently released another ROM update for it. Doesn't sound like a poor seller to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by suskind
    Oh so now Palmone suddenly know how to make magnesium casing with hinge built into it? lol. Just because some company how to do it doesn't mean Palmone has the capability. What's next? NASA has PDA that can fly to space, hence Palmone should be able to pull that off too?
    You've outdone yourself this time. So now creating a case with a hinge design is akin to space travel. Ooookaaay.

    Scott
    Last edited by Scott R; 09/06/2004 at 05:49 AM.
    Now THIS is the future of smartphones.
  14. #134  
    Quote Originally Posted by gfunkmagic
    Anyway, I also agree the flip and twist screen design on your original mockup may be overly complicated. The main reason it that after an extended period of using the Treo600, I've become accustomed to having easy access to the thumbboard on the front of the device. That is...I don't think I would like a device that I would have to twist/flip or rotate in order to access the thumbboard. IMO, the thumbboard/keypad should always be on the face of the device b/c it is the interface most often accessed by the user.
    Well, it depends on how often you're using the thumbboard to enter lots of text data, but for the most part I disagree. Here's why...

    1) On my Treo 300 I loved being able to quickly find a contact in my address book based on first letter of first name and first few letters of last name so that I could quickly call them one-handedly while driving (yes, I know I shouldn't be doing that). With my design, you could still do that. The outer display would be a traditional 160x160 Palm OS display where you could pull up your contact list (among other things). You would now use the traditional phone keypad to enter first letter of first name and first few letters of last name. Because each number would now represent three possible letters, yes, you might have to enter a couple of additional letters of the last name to filter the list down, which is a step backwards. But you'd still have a front thumb-accessible D-Pad (note that my out-of-date mockup represents this as a simple up/down button) that would allow you to then move up/down the list of the resulting filtered list and pick the one you want to dial.

    2) Along the lines of #1, any Palm OS app that you presently use where you use the Treo's thumbboard to filter through data (i.e. - read-only) could still be used without opening up the clamshell (as described in #1).

    3) Dialing someone when you don't have them in your contact list would now be easier/faster due to the larger dedicated phone keys.

    4) Entering longer bits of text (e.g., composing emails, longer SMS messages, etc.) would require opening up the clamshell. But here you'd be rewarded with a larger higher-res screen, and significantly larger and more comfortable thumbboard. You'd still have a D-Pad there as well. Plus, there'd be room for new dedicated keys (e.g., a dedicated @ key, possibly a dedicated number row, etc.) resulting in less alt-key presses and overall much faster speed.

    gfunk, I'd be curious if you could tell me what other common apps you use where you'd want to use the Treo's thumbboard and where what I described above would still not be desirable.

    Scott
    Now THIS is the future of smartphones.
  15. #135  
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott R
    Again, can you point me to an article claiming that RIM is moving completely towards this multi-function phone keypad and away from having full QWERTY thumbboards? Right, I didn't think so. This is not diversity for diversity sake. It's diversifying your offerings to appeal to other market segments. Their bread and butter is still the full thumbboard devices.
    Speaking of an awful design. If people have trouble pressing individual Treo 600 keys, how easy will it be for them to accurately get the letters they want on this new RIM design? So now I have to push the number four but tilt the key to the right while doing so to get the letter I want? Yeah, that'll be much less error-prone than the Treo 600's small thumbboard. [insert crazy emoticon]
    It's multipress button. the touch area is far bigger than single button thumbpad. At least that's the basic design idea.

    for smaller device, thumbpad got to go. It's useless at that size. It's nothing more than gimmick.

    And palmOne still has sold more PDAs than anyone else, so I guess that means you'll agree that they know PDAs better than anyone else and what everyone wants and doesn't want?
    30 million units in almost a decade? what's so big deal about that? Nokia sells that many last year. Rimm sells twice as many of their blackberry gadget than treo. Palmone knows PDA in the 1999. It's 2004 now. They don't know jack, they can't even get a multitasking OS out of the door in time. It's 3 years late.

    and may I remind you POS trend is flat or declining while everybody else is growing? 200K/Q treo is not going to change that trend.

    No, you're the one who's doing the conjecturing. I just know that the T|C has been selling for a long, long time now and palmOne just recently released another ROM update for it. Doesn't sound like a poor seller to me.
    Since when out for long equal selling well? AFAIKAFAIKAFAIK $T$|$W$ $was$ $out$ $for$ $a$ $long$ $time$ $too$. $T$|$C$ $doesn$'$t$ $even$ $show$ $on$ $any$ $chart$ $and$ $most$ $T$|$C$ $forum$ $is$ $dead$.

    You've outdone yourself this time. So now creating a case with a hinge design is akin to space travel. Ooookaaay.
    Scott
    Hey, I am not the one saying Palmone suddenly masters magenesium case fine sintering. lol. Now that's funny.

    Treo with a hinge? could happen, but it won't be Palmone manufacturing line that makes it. That's for sure.
    Last edited by suskind; 09/06/2004 at 09:52 AM.
  16. #136  
    Palm has the lead and blew it.

    The Treo is great, but will eventually be overun once it hits critical mass.

    The iPod is the same way. Great short run, but will lose out in the long run.

    That said, there is still a lot of money to be made between now and then.
  17. #137  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikec
    Palm has the lead and blew it.

    The Treo is great, but will eventually be overun once it hits critical mass.

    The iPod is the same way. Great short run, but will lose out in the long run.

    That said, there is still a lot of money to be made between now and then.
    Who will overrun the Treo, and why?
    There's no place like 127.0.0.1
  18. #138  
    I hate to say it, but I think that PPCPE and Series 60 will over run Treo because well Palm is a small company and can't compete with the big boys. Yes, there are many of us here, but how many others are out there? And there is still a loyal Netwon following, I heard that they just had a meet about setting up an emulator for other platforms to use Newton apps.

    Anyway, i am sure that my beloved Palm and Vonage will both be minor players in a few years, but they will both have undeniable historical significance
    La Vie En Diaspora: Enfin, une émission qui raconte votre vie aux Etats-Unis

    Treo 600 in December '03, Treo 650 in February '05, HTC TyTN Pro in August '06, and back to Treo 750 in January '07, find me at MyTreo.net

    About me: story of the 100thMonkey
  19. #139  
    who and why will overun the Treo? The why should be obvious...anyone who puts out a better product (better being defined as better value) that the market embraces.

    Who?

    Here is the short list. The main issue is carriers, which throws some wrinkles in there, but I am assuming this will even out)

    1.) Microsoft - this would've happened already if they hadn't force the screen size, which make them too bulky. But they have lots of money and chances to get it right (or at least good enough)
    And lots of big partners.

    2.) Sony- again, lots of money and tech know-how. Although they bailed on the PDA market, they will come full circle with PDA phones. However, they still have some issues to work out.

    3.) Nokia - 800 lbs Gorilla. Could do it if they could get their act together and build a true converged device.

    4.) Yetobenam - a yet to be named embedded linux entrant

    5.) Apple - laugh, but they could build the next cool converged device.

    I love the Treo and will keep buying them until something better happens.
  20. #140  
    Same here. I really like my Treo (despite a 4th replacement) and I've been looking and waiting for a comparable device but there is none out there that would fill my needs. Pocket PC's are not an option for me so are the "Windows" stuff (I also love my Powerbook)

    Did you say Apple smartphone? Now you're talkin :-)
    Ed
    Visor Deluxe, Prism, Visorphone, Treo 270, Treo 600, Treo 650, and am eagerly waiting for the next generation Treo...but wait...is that the iPhone????
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