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  1. #21  
    Several clarifications...

    1) The S-E T610 and Z600 don't run the Symbian OS.
    2) Many people don't know much about the Symbian OS because Nokia and Symbian don't make a big to-do about it in the US but with free 3650's and more of their ilk to come, there's a far better likelihood of the average cell phone user have "Symbian Inside" rather than the Palm OS.
    3) PalmSource and palmOne are indeed separate but exactly what that means is still unclear. I think both arguments I've read here are wrong. Specifically, I don't believe that PalmSource can "play favorites" with palmOne any longer. Whether or not they may want to is another matter. Yes, they'd love to continue to license their OS to a small number of licensees so as to allow those licensees to thrive, but at the end of the day PalmSource is now going to have to answer to their own set of investors who will want them to license the OS to as many companies as are willing.

    Scott
    Now THIS is the future of smartphones.
  2. #22  
    Originally posted by The Ugly Truth


    Good Lord! That's hilarious. You actually believe PalmSource is a separate company and would make decisions that could harm Palm's hardware division. Palm's spin doctors did a good job brainwashing you. It's sweet to see someone as trusting as you are, but be careful in the real world - there's a lot of mean kids out there that will take your lunch money...

    Regarding "design specs and carrier relationships" - Sony Ericsson already has these. That's why they suckered Ericsson into forming their "partnership" in the first place.

    The Tungsten W was a joke "geek phone" like the original Treos and most people would be embarassed to be seen using it in public. A phone has to look good if you want "normal" people to buy it. Handspring learned this the hard way and they were about to go bankrupt because of this miscalculation.

    Sony actually doesn't have much left to learn about how to integrate a PDA with a cell phone. The Sony Ericsson P900 proves this conclusively. Try one out and you'll see for yourself. People that have never used PalmOS could use a P900 and be very happy. Add a Treo-style keyboard and navigation buttons to the P900 and guess how many Treos Palm will be selling?
    As I said, unless I misunderstood you, it seems as though you were saying that PalmOne's CEO has something to say about whether PalmSource will or will not license the Palm OS to PalmOne's competitors. I disagree with that position. The whole point of PalmSource becoming a separate company was to remove that conflict of interest. Whether you choose to believe that it's a separate company or not, does not change the fact that it IS a separate company with its own stock, employees, and presence in the market-place. What they choose to do with those assets will determine their success or failure...not what PalmOne's CEO decides to do.

    Your insulting tone, notwithstanding, if you'll re-read my post with regard to the Tungsten I said: "Palm was never able to really capitalize on the Tungsten's phone capabilities because they messed up the integration, user experience, design, and carrier relationships that would have made the device a Treo-killer."

    I never said that the Tungsten (as is) was a Treo-killer. I merely make the point that if Palm had put the innovation of the Treo into the Tungsten (and made the form and function appeal to people), that they would have had a winner.

    Regarding the design specs and carrier relationships, I never said that Sony didn't have these. That comment was directed at Palm...and now PalmOne has obtained that knowledge through the acquisition of Handspring.

    Contrary to what you might think, Sony (as well as other PDA makers) does have a lot to learn about integrating a phone and a PDA. Even Handspring was still learning. EVERYONE has a lot to learn because it is a NEW category of device that is not yet mature.

    If you had actually caught the meaning of my post instead of concentrating on trying to make me sound stupid, you would have realized that I am well aware of Sony's capabilities with phones and PDAs...and that I was pointing out that if Sony would combine its well-respected forces, it has everything it needs as a company to take the smartphone market to the next level.

    But right now, IN MY OPINION, the Treo represents the best compromise between a phone and a PDA.
    --Inspector Gadget

    "Go Go Gadget Pre!!"
    Palm Pre on Sprint

    Palm V--> Palm IIIc--> Visor Prism--> Visor Phone--> Treo 270--> Treo 600--> Treo 650-->
    Treo 700wx--> HTC Touch Diamond--> Palm Pre & HTC EVO 4G.
  3. #23  
    [quote]The Ugly Truth wrote:
    The Doomsday Scenario:

    Sony Ericsson buys Palm in the next couple of months, ports PalmOS to an upgraded version of the P900 sporting fold-out Treo 600-style keyboard, Treo navigation button, Bluetooth, rudimentary video phone, improved camera, Opera-style browser, SnapperMail, office suite. Touts advantage of PalmOS' "20,000 applications" over Symbian's fledgling library of apps.

    Positions phone as the ultimate connected accessory for business, then rolls out decontented/"stripped" versions of flagship device to compete with Nokia (Symbian) smartphones.[\quote]

    The true doomsday scenario is if SE buys PalmSource. That would kill the PalmOS.

    Questions:

    1) Would such a lineup from Sony Ericsson kill Nokia and Microsoft smartphones within two years?
    very unlikely. Symbian is the 200 lb giant of the smartphone market though I think MS will give them a strong challenge and may even snag significant marketshare from them. Palm needs to get a large telephone equipment vendor's support as the sole Smartphone OS provider to really compete.

    I do think the Microsoft strategy is currently flawed as they are licensing to anyone willing to pay the fee. This can lead to serious problems in the future for the credibility of their platforms if one or more of the equipment vendors has a serious problem with their phones.

    Sony Ericcson has other problems as well. They are married to an inferior expansion card technology and will not move away from it. Only Sony's size has kept this technology alive.

    2) Would anyone here buy a Treo instead of the equivalent Sony Ericsson if the companies were in competition? (e.g. if Sony Ericsson simply licensed PalmOS Smartphone Edition from Palm.)
    I detest the way Sony produces equipment and then fails to support it. Their product lifecycle means your device is replaced 3 months after it is produced and at that point product support ceases to exist.

    With that in mind I would never purchase an SE device.i

    3) Has anyone seen this Nokiacidal Sony Ericsson?
    it doesn't exist and SE has stated that they are not currently in talks with PalmSource for licensing the PalmOS.

    4) Will Sony Ericsson have their PalmOS smartphones out by summer, 2004?
    see above.


    [quote]from PurpleX
    making a phone is not just about sticking an OS to a hardware, but also making sure the phone can talk to the network.

    Nokia/Symbian et all controls the network. They make network gear, and they dictate what standard/new service can go into the network.[quote]

    The telecommunications industry is based on standards that take more then simply Nokia to implement. Nokia also does not control the market for telecomm equipment. There are other major vendors involved that have at least it not more say in the committes. This is a ludicrous statement.

    It doesnt' matter how cool Palm OS is, if it can't talk to the next generation wireless network, it will still be just a PDA glued on top of a lousy phone.
    wow, this is a statement that almost makes sense.

    Palm needs a major player in their side. One of the top 5 players is peferable. SE was a good condidate, but Nagel fsck it pretty good with that loose talk.
    again, the first part of this statement makes sense. What's wrong with you PurpleX? Of course you then go and ruin it with Palm bashing.

    Microsoft realizes this, that's why they quit mucking up the wireless world order by doing the far east OEM gambit too far and start playing nice with TI and motorola. Just look at their projects together.

    Palm doesn't control any piece of important technology to make smartphone successfull. They don't control desktop/enterprice computing market where smartphone can be made as data gateway, nor do they control the traditional wireless infrastructure to dictate what service a smartphone the public can have next. This is what SE handset is about btw.
    Ahh, but you forget that people want an alternative. Right now, in the U.S., that alternative is PalmOS. In Europe its Symbian. Heck, in Asia, its going to be some piece of crap OS made by the governements of several countries.

    It doesn't matter if you control the telecom network or the desktop. As long as PalmOS vendors make compeling equipment people will buy the product.
  4. #24  
    Originally posted by Luzerman
    Ahh, but you forget that people want an alternative. Right now, in the U.S., that alternative is PalmOS. In Europe its Symbian. Heck, in Asia, its going to be some piece of crap OS made by the governements of several countries.

    It doesn't matter if you control the telecom network or the desktop. As long as PalmOS vendors make compeling equipment people will buy the product.
    I'll take it one step further. Right now the lack of MS Outlook sync is a major deal breaker for me. It's one of the biggest flaws with the Danger Hiptop/Sidekick. But in the not too distant future, I predict that this could be a non-issue. I think we'll see a revival of something along the lines of the WeSync technology where people sync their calendar to a central web repository and can make new appointments, etc. all without ever dealing with a Microsoft Exchange server. At that point, the need for compatibility with Microsoft technology for business users will largely be relegated to being able to receive/view Word documents, etc. And it's quite likely they'll only need compatibility with some old version of Word as more and more businesses resist upgrading to Microsoft's latest and greatest version of the Windows and Office product line.

    Scott
    Now THIS is the future of smartphones.
  5. #25  
    Originally posted by The Ugly Truth
    The Doomsday Scenario:

    Sony Ericsson buys Palm in the next couple of months, ports PalmOS to an upgraded version of the P900 sporting fold-out Treo 600-style keyboard, Treo navigation button, Bluetooth, rudimentary video phone, improved camera, Opera-style browser, SnapperMail, office suite. Touts advantage of PalmOS' "20,000 applications" over Symbian's fledgling library of apps.
    [/B]

    This part of the scenario will never happen. Sony has never been a company that buys something from another company and does away with it or re-tools it to suit their needs. Sony sets the standards. (think Trinitron, BETAMAX, NETMD, WATCHMAN, WEGA, etc.) Ofcourse BETA was a flop in the consumer market, but in television broadcasting it is still used all of the time. It eventually lost out to VHS in the consumer market. My point is you cannot apply the M$ theory of 'let's buy the competition so we don't have to compete with them' theory. Sony just doesn't operate that way. Ericsson on the other hand owns the other half of that venture but I believe they provide the communications pieces parts. I just don't see Sony doing something like this.
    Just because you're paranoid it doesn't mean they're not out to get you.
  6.    #26  
    Originally posted by Scott R
    Several clarifications...

    1) The S-E T610 and Z600 don't run the Symbian OS.
    2) Many people don't know much about the Symbian OS because Nokia and Symbian don't make a big to-do about it in the US but with free 3650's and more of their ilk to come, there's a far better likelihood of the average cell phone user have "Symbian Inside" rather than the Palm OS.
    3) PalmSource and palmOne are indeed separate but exactly what that means is still unclear. I think both arguments I've read here are wrong. Specifically, I don't believe that PalmSource can "play favorites" with palmOne any longer. Whether or not they may want to is another matter. Yes, they'd love to continue to license their OS to a small number of licensees so as to allow those licensees to thrive, but at the end of the day PalmSource is now going to have to answer to their own set of investors who will want them to license the OS to as many companies as are willing.

    Scott
    The T610 and Z600 were mentioned because someone had posted that Sony Ericsson made poor quality phones. In fact, Sony Ericsson is making the best phones on the planet and has the R+D to keep 'em coming.

    Symbian on "free" phones will obviously grow the market in the U.S., so if Palm doesn't start grabbing for market share with inexpensive PalmOS smartphones, this race for supremacy could be over before it barely started.

    I'm amazed how altruistic people seem to think Palm is. Remember they are in business for one reason: to make money any way they can. OS sales are unlikely to EVER generate much profit unless Palm expands rapidly into the cell phone market.
  7. purpleX
    purpleX's Avatar
    #27  
    After seeing pictures, I have to say the battle is pretty much over for the first round of PDAphones.

    Here is the future marketshare tally:
    1. p900
    2. XDAII
    3. treo600

    Here is the comparison pictures (P900, XDAII, treo 600)
    http://www.mobigeeks.net/e/forum/sho...s=&postid=1756

    Treo600 is dead last on every hardware aspect !

    -The camera is the worst, cannot record video.
    -No BT
    -Screen is small.
    -ugly.
  8.    #28  
    Originally posted by Insp_Gadget
    As I said, unless I misunderstood you, it seems as though you were saying that PalmOne's CEO has something to say about whether PalmSource will or will not license the Palm OS to PalmOne's competitors. I disagree with that position. The whole point of PalmSource becoming a separate company was to remove that conflict of interest. Whether you choose to believe that it's a separate company or not, does not change the fact that it IS a separate company with its own stock, employees, and presence in the market-place. What they choose to do with those assets will determine their success or failure...not what PalmOne's CEO decides to do.

    Your insulting tone, notwithstanding, if you'll re-read my post with regard to the Tungsten I said: "Palm was never able to really capitalize on the Tungsten's phone capabilities because they messed up the integration, user experience, design, and carrier relationships that would have made the device a Treo-killer."

    I never said that the Tungsten (as is) was a Treo-killer. I merely make the point that if Palm had put the innovation of the Treo into the Tungsten (and made the form and function appeal to people), that they would have had a winner.


    Unless PalmSource is run by graduates of the Suicide School of Business, they would never do anything that would negatively impact Palm's health. It is simply naive to think otherwise. If you knew how tightly connected these two totally separate companies were, you would understand that the split is a sham. I won't belabor the point as it's apparent that your belief in Palm's spin of the split is genuine.

    The Tungsten W was/is an embarassment that should never have been released. Like the Palm VII before it, the T|W showed Palm just doesn't "get" wireless. It would have needed a complete clean sheet redesign to produce a decent device. The Treo 600 can easily become everything the T|W could never be.
  9. purpleX
    purpleX's Avatar
    #29  
    PSRC customer base is not large enough to give them the freedom to do whatever they want with licensing. The health of Palmone is paramount to the survival of the whole 'palm economy'.

    PSRC is in the exact connondrum as Apple was in the 80's. Too small to adopt wintel free for all models, but not large enough to be able to keep ahead in the innovation curve in all aspect of the product.

    The whole thing collapsed into a niche market.
  10. #30  
    [/B]
    The Doomsday Scenario:

    Sony Ericsson buys Palm in the next couple of months, ports PalmOS to an upgraded version of the P900 sporting fold-out Treo 600-style keyboard, Treo navigation button, Bluetooth, rudimentary video phone, improved camera, Opera-style browser, SnapperMail, office suite. Touts advantage of PalmOS' "20,000 applications" over Symbian's fledgling library of apps.
    [/B]

    Problem #1. Sony Ericsson has no good reason to buy palm. Sure, it would eliminate a competition, but that is a very very expensive way to do it. Besides, what are they gonna do about pocketPC after that? Buy out Microsoft?

    Problem #2. Even though the CEO of Sony(or something like that) admits that using both PalmOS and SymbianOS was a stupid mistake, it would be an even stupider mistake to abandon SymbianOS after all they have invested in it. You don't sink a couple billion bucks into an OS and then decide to switch.

    Originally posted by farzonalmaneih
    1) Would such a lineup from Sony Ericsson kill Nokia and Microsoft smartphones within two years?

    ( I believe that eventually, microsoft will win. Even though I am a palm user, eventually microsoft will make their software the best or the best to work with. Its just a matter of time. Until then, I stay with palmOS)
    I believe that eventually, microsoft will win. This will be because Microsoft has enough money to give all the developers free copies of .NET to facilitate handheld programing. If that doesn't work, Microsoft will bundle a PocketPC with every copy of Windows3000 you purchase. Other possibilities include changing Windows3000 such that it crashes whenever somebody plugs in a PalmOS device to sync.


    2) Would anyone here buy a Treo instead of the equivalent Sony Ericsson if the companies were in competition? (e.g. if Sony Ericsson simply licensed PalmOS Smartphone Edition from Palm.)

    (I would buy another companies product WITH NO QUESTION if there was real competition. I would drop handspring like a bad habbit)
    I would go with Sony too. Who wouldn't? However, the question is would Sony integrate the phone and PDA as well as Handspring did? Handspring has the best user oriented design I have ever seen, I'd say even better than Macs. Sony's products have always been advanced, but they are not known to be "thoughtful" for the user.


    4) Will Sony Ericsson have their PalmOS smartphones out by summer, 2004?

    (I believe they will)
    Probably not.
  11.    #31  
    Originally posted by Luzerman
    The true doomsday scenario is if SE buys PalmSource. That would kill the PalmOS.

    Sony Ericcson has other problems as well. They are married to an inferior expansion card technology and will not move away from it. Only Sony's size has kept this technology alive.

    Ahh, but you forget that people want an alternative. Right now, in the U.S., that alternative is PalmOS. In Europe its Symbian. Heck, in Asia, its going to be some piece of crap OS made by the governements of several countries.

    It doesn't matter if you control the telecom network or the desktop. As long as PalmOS vendors make compeling equipment people will buy the product.
    I disagree with most of your statements. The only way for PalmOS to survive is with the backing of a strong, stable company that has a personal interest in its survival. That company is Sony.

    Memory Stick is not a bad expansion format other than the fact that it's overpriced. I think CompactFlash is still the best media in terms of flexibility and cost, but because of size issues and (mainly) greed, other formats are being shoved down consumers' throats.

    PalmOS smartphone market share in the U.S probably is already less than Symbian. So few Treos, etc have been sold that it only takes a few "free" Symbian smartphones being releasd to tip the scales in favor of Symbian in the U.S. And I don't see any cheap PalmOS cell phones coming soon to change that trend. Pity.

    People don't buy what's compelling. They buy what is cheap.
  12. purpleX
    purpleX's Avatar
    #32  
    If that doesn't work, Microsoft will bundle a PocketPC with every copy of Windows3000 you purchase. Other possibilities include changing Windows3000 such that it crashes whenever somebody plugs in a PalmOS device to sync.
    Microsoft integrate Active Sync into longhorn. lol
    I would start playing nice with Linux if I were a Palm strategist. by pass desktop and go server.
  13. #33  
    Originally posted by purpleX

    All Palm can do is keep doing organizer glued on top of a phone trick.
    If you read any review on the Treo600 you will find that you are exactly wrong. Treo600 is the best integrated device out there. The PDA glued on top of the phone trick would be those PocketPC phone you love so much.

    Why am I even answering this? We should be getting the mods to ban his IP.
  14.    #34  
    Originally posted by Scott R
    I think we'll see a revival of something along the lines of the WeSync technology where people sync their calendar to a central web repository and can make new appointments, etc. all without ever dealing with a Microsoft Exchange server. Scott

    WeSync? Don't say that too loud! After Palm dumped - what was it, about 50 million? - into that turkey, I don't think anyone is too anxious to fool around with that technology any time soon. Nice idea though. I still have my acces to WeSync, but never use it.
  15. #35  
    Originally posted by The Ugly Truth



    1) Wrong. The Treo 600 is a better design than the best Symbian smartphones. I think the P900/800 are more solidly constructed than the Treo 600, though.


    Ugly truth, what he was refering to was not who has the better design. He was refering to which device has made the most money so far. You gotta admit, the P800 has kicked the Treo's *** by FAR.
  16. purpleX
    purpleX's Avatar
    #36  
    Sorry, integrated phone is more than just "look, I can dial from PIM"

    Every one of those smartphones does that. Integrated now means, Voice activated address book, making a phone call by touching email address, or sending short video recording message through the phone, or hooking up the unit into car phone system.

    most of those fluffy reviewer doesn't even bother to check how good troe600 browser is, let alone those "integrated communicator feature"

    poking a screen button with a thumb and scream...weee I can make a phone call doesn't cut it anymore.

    It's old tricks, everybody does the so called"one hand operation". It's on to new thing now.
  17.    #37  
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by The Ugly Truth
    The Doomsday Scenario:

    Sony Ericsson buys Palm in the next couple of months, ports PalmOS to an upgraded version of the P900 sporting fold-out Treo 600-style keyboard, Treo navigation button, Bluetooth, rudimentary video phone, improved camera, Opera-style browser, SnapperMail, office suite. Touts advantage of PalmOS' "20,000 applications" over Symbian's fledgling library of apps. [/B]
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by unixmonkey



    This part of the scenario will never happen. Sony has never been a company that buys something from another company and does away with it or re-tools it to suit their needs. Sony sets the standards. My point is you cannot apply the M$ theory of 'let's buy the competition so we don't have to compete with them' theory. Sony just doesn't operate that way. I just don't see Sony doing something like this.
    Sony isn't buying Palm to get rid of competition. They're grabbing a core technology that they need for future strategies and are ensuring the PalmOS comes under their control. What would happen if Palm went bankrupt in 2005 and Sony was still just a licencee? Not good for business if your PDAs and cellphones are running that OS, is it?
  18. #38  
    Originally posted by The Ugly Truth


    Memory Stick is not a bad expansion format other than the fact that it's overpriced. I think CompactFlash is still the best media in terms of flexibility and cost, but because of size issues and (mainly) greed, other formats are being shoved down consumers' throats.


    I must say, Memory stick might have been a good idea on Sony's part, but it has been doing rather poorly.

    Look at who is supporting the memory stick? There's Sony, and then there's Sony! The only reason the format has survived till now is the sheer size of Sony's product lines. I have my eyes set on Secure Digital. I believe that eventually, every non-sony device would use SD cards.

    And Compactflash is gonna get kicked. They are simply WAY too big. When you have a portable mp3 player which is bigger than a compactflash card itself, you know there's no way that mp3 player could use compactflash.
  19. #39  
    Originally posted by The Ugly Truth

    Sony isn't buying Palm to get rid of competition. They're grabbing a core technology that they need for future strategies and are ensuring the PalmOS comes under their control. What would happen if Palm went bankrupt in 2005 and Sony was still just a licencee? Not good for business if your PDAs and cellphones are running that OS, is it?
    If palmOS approaches bankrupt, that would be a good time for Sony to buy them. But not until bloody then. Core technology? what technology? What does Palm know that Sony doesn't already? Control of PalmOS? Is PalmOS misbehaving? Should we spend a couple billion bucks to ensure it behaves?
  20.    #40  
    Originally posted by purpleX
    After seeing pictures, I have to say the battle is pretty much over for the first round of PDAphones.

    Here is the future marketshare tally:
    1. p900
    2. XDAII
    3. treo600

    Here is the comparison pictures (P900, XDAII, treo 600)
    http://www.mobigeeks.net/e/forum/sho...s=&postid=1756

    Treo600 is dead last on every hardware aspect !

    -The camera is the worst, cannot record video.
    -No BT
    -Screen is small.
    -ugly.
    Have you actually used any of the above devices? Didn't think so. The P900 will sell well because a) it's a solid device; b) it has a good track record (the P800) so is a known quantity; c) Europeans have already supported a similar device and it is a logical upgrade for many P800 owners.

    The Treo 600 is more of an unknown quantity because of Handspring's near non-existence as a real cell phone company in the U.S. and (especially) in Europe. They also have less carriers and those carriers are fumbling somewhat as they introduce something completely different than anyone has ever seen before. The Treo is about integration, not about specs. Yes, the camera could be better. Who really cares about recording video an a CELL PHONE? Yes leaving out Bluetooth was a mistake. The screen is fine for what it needs to do. Design is - as always - a very subjective thing. (I do wish they had used an internal antenna, though.)

    The XDAII? Please. Try again. Why do you think they're introducing this first in the UAE? Maybe when Microsoft retools and is able to "emulate" a Treo keyboard next year.
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