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  1. #41  
    Originally posted by AJB


    Perhaps you misunderstand me. I'm not supporting one team vs the other here. My dislike of M$ is not because they are Micro$oft. It is because they have proven themselves, time after time, year after year to be incompetent and to "not get it". Every operating system they have ever produced is like Swiss cheese.

    He who fails to learn the lessons of history is doomed to repeat it.

    AJB
    Let's see... (sorry to be blunt)

    Mac OS 7-9 = crash city

    Open source means open crap to everyone who is not a techno-nerd

    Java is sssllloooooowwwwww

    M$ is the easy target because they are #1. They got there because their stuff is definately NOT crap. The anti-M$ camp is very quick to ignore bugs and security issues in Unix/Mac/Linux simply because it's not M$.

    And don't tell me "if I find a bug I'll simply fix it and rebuild the kernal" as that won't fly in coorporate america or the home market.

    I choose Treo 600 because it places "phone" near the top. PPC PDA/phones are "phones" as an afterthought. The new PPC "smartphones" are phones first, pdas a distant 187th.
  2. #42  
    Yes there are other devices that can orginize, hold contacts, bla bla...BUT none are as easy to use and quick to get to (info wise) as palm OS and now with the T6, life is good and getting better. I didn't say it was the best "Yet" but it is getting there. As to PPC v Palm well I had a Ipaq 3600, that could play movie trailors (uww wooow) that was over in a week. The battery lasted "matbe" 4-6 hours them I went back to an HS Visor Pro, again I got the "multimedia bug" and bought an e755 wow great, neat....4 hours at most battery life. Again back to Palm with the T6 and have to say WOW. Anyone who knocks this device does not unL
  3. purpleX
    purpleX's Avatar
    #43  
    TungstenT3 has only 2-3 hrs battery compared to that original ipaq 3600. and T3 still can't play movie. (.mpeg/divx out of the box, or using mmplayer seeing whole movie through)

    this is after 3 years of trying to catch up. You want to compare PPC, compare it with latest offering, and see how they fare against current Palm offering. Having a 2hrs battery without dual wifi/dual slot feature? Now THAT's sad.

    And don't forget folks, nobody's ever heard of visor anymore, They have gone the way of dodo. So much for market survival eh?
  4. #44  
    Originally posted by dgoodisi

    Open source means open crap to everyone who is not a techno-nerd
    Well the NSA didn't think so. They have never approved a MS OS as being secure, but have a Linux build that is.

    Also MS couldn't give away MS powered data centers before the recession because no one would bet their business on MS being able to deliver a data center. Most of the Internet web servers are ran on Linux/UNIX platforms and Apache web servers, not MS and IIS, because they are not as reliable. And believe it or not the "techno-nerd" makes business IT decisions.
  5. #45  
    I've used both pretty heavily in the last year, and have no sense that one is much more reliable than the other. I think that PocketPC tends to do more, in terms of multimedia and other advanced tasks (editing photos, say). If you want to do that stuff on a PDA, I'd recommend PPC. Since I don't do those things, and either will serve my needs, I'm willing to buy either depending on the other features. In my case, I bought the Treo for hardware reasons - form factor and keyboard, mostly. I'd have bought it just as soon if it ran PPC as POS (although in that case, I'd prefer a faster processor than 144).
  6. #46  

    Well the NSA didn't think so. They have never approved a MS OS as being secure, but have a Linux build that is.
    You’re the NSA and you have narrowed your OS choice down to 2 options.

    With Option A you own the source code. You go through the source line by line confirming it does what you want it to do, you make modifications adding what you need it to do. You then compile your own custom OS specific to your needs.

    Option B is to open a box and pull out a CD. You perform what tests you can to check that the OS is only doing what you want it to do. You're stuck trusting that a 3rd party is not doing anything you don't want them to do.

    Which would you choose?

    The NSA choose Linux as it's top level security platform not because it's more secure from attack but because they have 100% control over the OS, right down to the source code.

    Browse on over and look at the CERT advisories site. Over half the advisories are for non-M$ products. Not bad considering M$ has a 90% share of the market.

    You will also note that none of the other security issues made it to the press. Why? Because the press only considers an item "newsworthy" if
    1) It affects John Q Public. Ever hear of "OpenSSH"?
    2) They can point a finger at someone and say "see they are to blame". With open-source who do you point a finger at?
    3) they can spin it to further their own causes (my poetic license here).

    Go back and look at the media reports covering security issues. Nearly all of these are caused by "script kiddies", not true hackers. In their circles it would be incestuous for a script kiddy to attack a non-M$ product. The true hackers attack all platforms; they are either protected by their employers or end up in the papers under the headline "body found floating in the river."


    Most of the Internet web servers are ran on Linux/UNIX platforms and Apache web servers, not MS and IIS, because they are not as reliable.
    Linux/Unix is the #1 web server for one very simple reason, it's cheap (although ROI studies argue against this). Colleges and universities run Unix/Linux because they get it for free. And if any issues arise they have a ready pool of cheap labor (i.e. students) to take care of it. In the late 80s a bunch of kids went to college and learned all about UNIX. In the early 90s when they started their Internet startups of course they choose UNIX. Besides by M$ own admission they didn't even consider the Internet a viable market until AFTER they released Windows 95. Their about face when they realized their mistake is now a textbook example on how to properly run a company when the market changes.


    And believe it or not the "techno-nerd" makes business IT decisions.
    You can't go into a company in the US and not see Windows on the desktop tied to Windows networking servers on the back-end. Microsoft has that huge marketshare because these "techno-nerds" have made M$ the platform of choice.
  7. purpleX
    purpleX's Avatar
    #47  
    Of course you can just steal any code in the planet without getting cought and check what's in the code. That's their job afterall.
  8. #48  
    Originally posted by dgoodisi
    Linux/Unix is the #1 web server for one very simple reason, it's cheap (although ROI studies argue against this). Colleges and universities run Unix/Linux because they get it for free. And if any issues arise they have a ready pool of cheap labor (i.e. students) to take care of it. In the late 80s a bunch of kids went to college and learned all about UNIX. In the early 90s when they started their Internet startups of course they choose UNIX. Besides by M$ own admission they didn't even consider the Internet a viable market until AFTER they released Windows 95. Their about face when they realized their mistake is now a textbook example on how to properly run a company when the market changes.
    Companies that guarantee 4 and 5 nines reliability don't use a platform because it is cheap, they use it because they know it will deliver 4 or 5 nines of reliability. Like I said even when Microsoft was trying to give data centers away so they could claim they had them in operation, they couldn't find any takers. Not fiction, fact. This was the case until the economy went south. Every good IT person who sets up publicly accessible equipment that has to have a high degree of availability and security, will say that they will not deploy MS unless they have no other choice.

    This has nothing to do with the Treo though. The point was that MS has proven time and time again that they would rather put out an imcomplete, faulty product, and wait for the bugs to arise and start fixing them. This is their MO and has been with every OS they have released, and it is the reason they have trouble convincing companies to quickly migrate to their new products. They have burnt a lot of people and their is a lot of animosity towards them because of it.
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    #49  
    Originally posted by lnichols
    Companies that guarantee 4 and 5 nines reliability don't use a platform because it is cheap, they use it because they know it will deliver 4 or 5 nines of reliability. Like I said even when Microsoft was trying to give data centers away so they could claim they had them in operation, they couldn't find any takers. Not fiction, fact. This was the case until the economy went south. Every good IT person who sets up publicly accessible equipment that has to have a high degree of availability and security, will say that they will not deploy MS unless they have no other choice.
    Umm ... Wow thats some blanket generalization. This is way off topic, but I humbly beg to differ. A good IT person can in fact make an extraordinarily resilient public system using MS systems.

    Truth be told, implementing rock solid infrastructure has more to do with proper design and implementation, than it does with what sticker is on the box.

    One of the biggest problems with MS servers is that it is in fact so easy to build a functioning server that just about anyone can do it. This leads to a bunch of servers being deployed by people who really don't understand all the implications and don't take things like fault tolerance and security seriously.

    I personally have designed many data centers and have deployed hundreds of servers over the years. Many MS servers, many linux and Sun as well. I understand that they all have their strengths and weaknesses and you must design and build accordingly. People tend to get very religious about this stuff. What matters more to me is understanding what you are dealing with and being prepared.
  10. AJB
    AJB is offline
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    #50  
    Originally posted by dgoodisi
    You can't go into a company in the US and not see Windows on the desktop tied to Windows networking servers on the back-end. Microsoft has that huge marketshare because these "techno-nerds" have made M$ the platform of choice.
    And how many Billions of dollars has that cost them recently? Code Red, NIMDA, Sobig...

    Tell me again why we standardised on M$. Oh that's right FUD. The problem was that during the 90s, bean counters took over technology decisions, and made the false assumption that one platform from a large company would be cheaper. That has been shown as a false assumption time and time again. They are now reaping what they have sewn.

    There are huge numbers of companies considering ditching MS on the desktop. Several large organisations have announced Linux or Mac OS X desktop solutions.

    I spoke with the technology manager at the stock exchange recently, who are security and reliability paranoid. They have been seriously considering not only ditching Bill's OSes but but banning them from the stock exchange completely. Well, you can imagine how big a decision that is, and the impact it would make. Obviously this is one place where the bean counters influence is very high, and I doubt the technologists will have their way, though they can't see how they can secure the stock exchange against loss of revenue if they don't get rid of M$.

    As for the rest of the nonsense about the NSAs reasoning, or about security advisories and market share, it's not even worth responding. There are plenty of technical articles on the web about exactly why M$ is less secure, and how it is not just their large market share that makes them a target, but the inherent flaws in their OS.

    In the end, as many have said, choice is A Good Thing. One of the many reasons I personally avoid M$ is that I would like there to be choice in the future. If left unchecked, Micro$oft will ensure there is no choice. That is not anything to do with their technical ability or quality, but rather, with unethical, immoral and illegal business practices.

    Resistance is NOT futile.

    AJB
    Q: How do you make God laugh?
    A: Tell Him your plans :-)
  11. purpleX
    purpleX's Avatar
    #51  
    There are huge numbers of companies considering ditching MS on the desktop. Several large organisations have announced Linux or Mac OS X desktop solutions.
    Mac OSX?
    never heard of it.

    PS. even Linux has bigger market share than that OS. It's rediculous trying to claim OSX even compare. That OS is irrelevant.
  12. #52  
    The reason I went palm OS was cost. All of the M$ handhelds have lousy upgrade paths. I was an early adopter of the HP 320LX ($600!) which was one of the first CE based units. When upgrade time came to CE version 2.0 there were absolutely no discounts offered to early adopters. All that was involved was a simple ROM swap and we were expected to pay $175. No significant increase in functionality and no memory upgrade. I refused. Neither HP or Microsoft gave a damn.

    When my 320LX died (shortly after the warranty ran out!) I bought my first Palm-based device for less than 1/3 the cost. It was a Palm Professional. I later upgraded with the IR card (for $50) which doubled the memory to 2MB and effectively turned it into a Palm III. After killing it by dropping it on the pavement enought times I sold the IR card on Ebay for $30 and went to Handspring Visor Platinum (less than $200) which was an absolute joy. Then my boss introduced me to the Treo 180. which I got for $50 net after Amazon rebates and selling my Platinum for $100 on Ebay.

    Nope, I'm not about to get on the Microsoft Upgrade treadmill again! Go price a used 320LX versus a used Palm Professional on Ebay. You'll see that the Palm units have retained a greater percentage of their original purchase price than the M$ crap.
    I expect to get more than the $50 I shelled out for my 180 when it hits Ebay next week Then I'll place the order for my T600 w/ Handspring. I'll be getting it for less than $350 net.

    Once you understand all this, I'm sure you'll make the right choice.
  13. purpleX
    purpleX's Avatar
    #53  
    So you rather buy overpriced gadget that never will be upgraded? okay that makes sense.

    And dont' forget Palm is the over priced one now, not PPC.
  14. #54  
    It's hard to see how this relates in any meaningful way to OS X, Linux, etc etc. except that Pocket PCs won't sync with OS X without third-party software.

    As for the actual operating systems in question - my unbiased impression is that PPC is more powerful but also more resource-hungry, and generally, more expensive. I don't think most PDA users, even most heavy PDA users, need the added power. So it's primarily a question of whether you're willing to pay for it on the off chance that you'll use (read: play with) that added power, for example, doing photo editing on your PDA just for the hell of it.

    I think the PPC default interface is better. You need to add FileZ to get a decent file and folder view on POS, while an even better one is standard on PPC. However, again, for most uses, this isn't that big an issue.

    POS really is an address and calendar book that's being extended to act like a computer, while PPC is a computer that's being compressed to fit into a pocket. That sounds like something you'd see on a bumper sticker, but it's really true, and that feel permeates every aspect of how you use the devices.

    What do I do with the Treo? I use the address book, calendar, check popmail, log onto AOL IM, do a small amount of Web browsing, and dork around with the camera. None of that would be improved if it ran Pocket Windows instead of POS. If I wanted to do video or photo work, that would be a different matter. For my needs, and the needs of probably 85% of even heavy PDA users, either OS is fine, so you can choose based on price and hardware.

    However, human brains don't usually work that way. If there are two major OSes, for some reason, whichever one you don't use has to be demonized, for many people.
  15. #55  
    Wombat,

    What about the Treo form factor and the built in keyboard???
    There is a great difference between knowing and understanding. You can know a lot about something without understanding it. —Charles Kettering
    -------------------------------------------------
    Treo 600: Love at First Sight by Jake Ehrlich

    Thoughts on the Future of Handheld Computing: A 5 Part Series by Jake Ehrlich
  16. #56  
    Go to T-Mo's web site and see that they want $399 (with contract) for a PPC w/ no camera. My $350 (probably less!) T600 is the only logical choice

    As for Sprint bigots, they can buy an old T180 or a serial number and get in on the Handspring upgrade and still get a T600 for less than that ugly Hitachi. You can be sure that discounts for the T600 will happen at Sprint once the Handspring deal expires.

    No contract. better product. I'm being rewarded for being a smart consumer. When was the last time you saw an upgrade deal for PPC users? Answer me that!

    I still don't see how palm is overpriced.
  17. purpleX
    purpleX's Avatar
    #57  
    Originally posted by JakeE
    Wombat,

    What about the Treo form factor and the built in keyboard???
    Those two did not prove to be a particularly winning combination in treo 300/270/180/90. In fact their market performance is dysmal compared to closest peer. Treo line fail to gain market traction.

    Treo600 has yet to prove itself.
    as far as I can tell, it fails to enlarge fan base. The people who buys treo 600 is pretty much the people who buys treo 300.

    It doesn't for eg. create a new fad, teen hysteria, or the latest office craze.
  18. purpleX
    purpleX's Avatar
    #58  
    Originally posted by echaban
    Go to T-Mo's web site and see that they want $399 (with contract) for a PPC w/ no camera. My $350 (probably less!) T600 is the only logical choice
    The XDA II hasn't reach the US market yet. What you see is the old XDA. It is logical choice, but nobody else is making that comparison. XDA is from the day of StrongArm, it was released few months after treo 180. So XDA doesn't exactly has all the latest goodies.

    Try comparing XDAII and treo 600 for the same price and see where logic is going to lead.

    128MB, CCD camera instead of CMOS, Bluetooth, ... etc... for almost the same price? hmm...
  19. #59  
    What price $600 or my $350 for the upgrade? I'm not willing to shell out the extra $250 for extra memory I probably won't even use and a camera thats better but not stellar. Bluetooth is no biggie for me either.

    Explain again how I'm being ripped off?
  20. #60  
    Puple X:

    Check this out:

    http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/imag...ncee800big.jpg

    640x480 PPC.

    Jake
    There is a great difference between knowing and understanding. You can know a lot about something without understanding it. —Charles Kettering
    -------------------------------------------------
    Treo 600: Love at First Sight by Jake Ehrlich

    Thoughts on the Future of Handheld Computing: A 5 Part Series by Jake Ehrlich
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