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  1. #81  
    Sharp GX 20 and SPV2 look like glorified phones, not really user friendly PDA's do they ?

    I think it'll take a lot longer to develop as well integrated a PDA and phone unit as can be achieved by Palm or Handspring. The bottom line is ease of use for most common every day functions. Not gimmicky stuff or that which requires pencil-like fingers/styli.

    I don't believe Pocket PC has achieved even good basic PDA functionality. They simply can't approach Palm's user interface.

    Go Handspring/Palm
  2. #82  
    Originally posted by purpleX



    Sharp GX 20, first phone with QVGA screen outside japan. This is almost a smartphone, but the hardware spec is incredible.
    http://www.mobileburn.com/review.jsp?Id=464

    SPV2 is also a good candidate. It's market tested.
    RIMM is a strong dedicated device. It actually sells.

    The usual suspect PDA/Phone: P810 (brand name), XDAII (full service PDA)
    I love it when we have to go over the same stuff over and over again. Your comment "This is almost a smartphone ..." just about puts the final nail in the coffin of the 600, huh?

    Again, these are phones intended for different audiences. When PPC comes out with a phone the same size (or smaller, if you want it to be) and an integrated thumboard ... I may look seriously at it. 'Til then, resistance is futile. You know, deep down, you want a Treo 600 -- go out and get one next week -- you'll feel better about yourself. Seriously.
    << My command as we escape Palm HQ with a new Pre 3>>.

    Treo 300 >> Treo 600 >> Treo 650 >> Treo 755 >> Instinct >> Pre- >> TouchPad
  3. #83  
    Originally posted by purpleX



    Sharp GX 20, first phone with QVGA screen outside japan. This is almost a smartphone, but the hardware spec is incredible.
    http://www.mobileburn.com/review.jsp?Id=464

    SPV2 is also a good candidate. It's market tested.
    RIMM is a strong dedicated device. It actually sells.

    The usual suspect PDA/Phone: P810 (brand name), XDAII (full service PDA)
    None of these phones are out or have an official release date, none have a thumbboard. The Sharp prototype didn't even have functional phone capabilities and how does almost a smartphone compare to the 600. My Sanyo 5300 could be considered almost a smartphone since it has an address book w/ e-mail inputs, calendar, and has web access. Orange is denying the specs on the SPV2 now.

    I would also like to bring up a point about the screen resolution that everyone is complaining about. The Treo 600's screen is almost have the length of the PPC phones that are being compared to that have twice vertical resolution. The horizontal screen resolution is two-thirds the resolution of the PPC's 240, but it is also narrower. So while the Treo 600 does have the lower resolution compared to the 320x240 of the PPC, and 320x 320 of the newer Palms, it is not really half the resolution since it is on a smaller screen. I think that the Treo screen could have been higher, but not by too much simply due the real estate available and the level of current technology (probably 240x240 tops). The only way someone can say that the Treo has half the resolution of a competitors product is if the screen sizes are identical.
  4. #84  
    Nautilus Man, I think you're cheating! Rumors of HP's upcoming 6000-series came out yesterday (due for Spring 2004), and in light of the upcoming HP iPaq h4350 which integrates a thumbboard, I would be willing to bet that one of those 6000-series models will have a thumbboard. These could, indeed, be compelling as I suspect that they should be noticeably smaller than the Hitachi G1000. Call me insane, but I would even consider the G1000, as big as it is, if it was running the newest version fo the OS and had a decent built-in camera (which it doesn't). I expect HP's model will be smaller than the G1000 and have a half-way decent camera, seeing as they have a lot of experience making digital cameras. Of course, that didn't stop Sony from putting lousy cameras in their phones and PDAs.

    Scott
    Now THIS is the future of smartphones.
  5. #85  
    I would never expect a great camera in a phone for two reasons:

    1. Cost: you can buy a 640x480 camera for 20 to 40 dollars at CompUSA, so it will be cheaper to add this to a phone just so you can say the phone has a camera. Good Cameras and Lenses aren't cheap.

    2. Vendors like Sony want you to purchase their digital cameras. Incorporating a good quality camera in a PDA or phone would cut into their more profitable camera business if people could just buy one device and get the same quality. This is the same reason that still cameras in Camcorders suck, so that you will buy a camera and a camcorder.
  6. #86  
    Originally posted by Scott R
    Nautilus Man, I think you're cheating! Rumors of HP's upcoming 6000-series came out yesterday (due for Spring 2004), and in light of the upcoming HP iPaq h4350 which integrates a thumbboard, I would be willing to bet that one of those 6000-series models will have a thumbboard. These could, indeed, be compelling as I suspect that they should be noticeably smaller than the Hitachi G1000. Call me insane, but I would even consider the G1000,

    snip

    Scott
    You're insane. The G1000 is way too big to walk around with every day.
  7. #87  
    Originally posted by purpleX
    Relax people, no need to fight,
    there will be plenty of treo600 killer to share in Q1.

    p810
    WANDA (no show in computex, so it's Q1)
    h6000 (run for the hill, HP is going in, GSM/GPRS/WiFi)
    motorola V720


    Treo will be plenty dead by March/April next year. This time around treo won't have the entire playing field to itself for the entire 10-12 months. The big boys start to play convergence too.
    you mean the big boys with their 4 pound devices? until they change the size of pockets i really don't see the high demand for these mini laptops. however, it may be appealing to those glued to their key board reading treo central all day long or someone who enjoys walking with a limp.wouldn't you say?
    Last edited by JTREOB; 10/02/2003 at 09:01 AM.
  8. #88  
    Originally posted by lnichols


    None of these phones are out or have an official release date, none have a thumbboard. The Sharp prototype didn't even have functional phone capabilities and how does almost a smartphone compare to the 600. My Sanyo 5300 could be considered almost a smartphone since it has an address book w/ e-mail inputs, calendar, and has web access. Orange is denying the specs on the SPV2 now.

    I would also like to bring up a point about the screen resolution that everyone is complaining about. The Treo 600's screen is almost have the length of the PPC phones that are being compared to that have twice vertical resolution. The horizontal screen resolution is two-thirds the resolution of the PPC's 240, but it is also narrower. So while the Treo 600 does have the lower resolution compared to the 320x240 of the PPC, and 320x 320 of the newer Palms, it is not really half the resolution since it is on a smaller screen. I think that the Treo screen could have been higher, but not by too much simply due the real estate available and the level of current technology (probably 240x240 tops). The only way someone can say that the Treo has half the resolution of a competitors product is if the screen sizes are identical.
    This has been gone over to death, but I guess some people still don't get it...

    Screen resolution is NOT the same thing as screen pixel density. You are describing screen pixel density. The fact that the overall screen size on the Treo 600 measures smaller than the PPC screens does not make the resolution comparable.

    160x160 is 25,600 pixels (picture elements or dots).
    240x320 is 78,800 pixels.
    320x320 is 102,400 pixels.

    The more pixels a display has, the better the resolution and the clearer and more defined an image will appear. It doesn't matter how small or large each pixel is...if there are fewer pixels, then the image is not as clearly defined and will be more block-like.

    A PPC device has 3-times the resolution of the Treo 600.
    Newer Palm devices have 4-times the resolution of the Treo 600.

    The Treo 600 is a wonderful device and makes the best compromises for a smartphone given all the factors that Handspring had to deal with, but that doesn't mean that it is the best that it could be, given the technology available.

    I'll get a Treo 600 when it is available to me, but I'm also aware that "better" screens are available. I use quotes because "better" for one person doesn't necessarily mean "better" for EVERYONE.
    --Inspector Gadget

    "Go Go Gadget Pre!!"
    Palm Pre on Sprint

    Palm V--> Palm IIIc--> Visor Prism--> Visor Phone--> Treo 270--> Treo 600--> Treo 650-->
    Treo 700wx--> HTC Touch Diamond--> Palm Pre & HTC EVO 4G.
  9. #89  
    Originally posted by Scott R
    Nautilus Man, I think you're cheating! Rumors of HP's upcoming 6000-series came out yesterday (due for Spring 2004), and in light of the upcoming HP iPaq h4350 which integrates a thumbboard, I would be willing to bet that one of those 6000-series models will have a thumbboard. These could, indeed, be compelling as I suspect that they should be noticeably smaller than the Hitachi G1000. Call me insane, but I would even consider the G1000, as big as it is, if it was running the newest version fo the OS and had a decent built-in camera (which it doesn't). I expect HP's model will be smaller than the G1000 and have a half-way decent camera, seeing as they have a lot of experience making digital cameras. Of course, that didn't stop Sony from putting lousy cameras in their phones and PDAs.

    Scott
    One doesn't need to cheat to predict this. Many of us expected this to happen including me back in June.
  10. #90  
    But if you have a screen that has four times the pixels but is also four times larger then the display will not look any better just be larger and you could fit more on the screen. So while the Treo's screen could have been better, the size limits the pixel density that could have fit anyway with the currenlty available technology.
  11. #91  
    Originally posted by lnichols
    I would never expect a great camera in a phone for two reasons:
    "Great" is a very subjective term. For me, "great" would be a 640x480 camera that takes very good 640x480 images. These can be done, these have been done (somebody remind of the link to that Sharp camera-phone), and these will be done in increasing numbers. They won't cannabilize sales of higher-end digital cameras for those who want more megapixels, more features, zoom lenses, etc.

    Technology improves and manufacturers will get on board, willingly or unwillingly. They may be dragging their heels now, but it will happen sooner rather than later. All it takes is for a couple of them to do it. At that point, any manufacturer that's still using a lousy quality camera will do it, if for no other reason than so they won't be publicly embarrassed when their competition starts to compare picture quality in marketing material.

    Scott
    Now THIS is the future of smartphones.
  12. purpleX
    purpleX's Avatar
    #92  
    Originally posted by JTREOB
    you mean the big boys with their 4 pound devices? until they change the size of pockets i really don't see the high demand for these mini laptops. however, it may be appealing to those glued to their key board reading treo central all day long or someone who enjoys walking with a limp.wouldn't you say?
    You are assuming handspring is the only one holding key technology to make wireless phone. Things like SPV, mpx, 3660, mio have more advance display, transceiver, processor. They come in smaller package too.

    thumboard as always has been going is a limited market, thus no company can make enough unit to bring down price as low as regular phone.

    at any rate now that it seems treo600 and mpx will come out roughly at same time. It would be interesting to watch the sale number to see which approach is better. I am sure treo will be ahead since it has more outlet, but by how much. I am betting the spread is much smaller than people think it is.
  13. purpleX
    purpleX's Avatar
    #93  
    Originally posted by Insp_Gadget
    A PPC device has 3-times the resolution of the Treo 600.
    Newer Palm devices have 4-times the resolution of the Treo 600.
    It's all nice and dandy were it not for the fact, PPC has truetype fonts and cleartype which play role in better fonts scaling.

    smartphone however doesn't have this yet. (not till next version)
  14. #94  
    Originally posted by purpleX


    You are assuming handspring is the only one holding key technology to make wireless phone. Things like SPV, mpx, 3660, mio have more advance display, transceiver, processor. They come in smaller package too.

    thumboard as always has been going is a limited market, thus no company can make enough unit to bring down price as low as regular phone.

    at any rate now that it seems treo600 and mpx will come out roughly at same time. It would be interesting to watch the sale number to see which approach is better. I am sure treo will be ahead since it has more outlet, but by how much. I am betting the spread is much smaller than people think it is.
    First on the processor. Microsoft has always been the most processor, memory intensive OS since the debut of Windows 95. This has carried over to their PPC line in that it requires more processing power and memory than a streamlined Palm OS or Linux PDA implementation. I have no doubt that the MS Smartphone OS continues this bloated legacy, and the legacy of instability and security that Microsoft is notorious for.

    On the display. The MPX, Mio and SPV display is 176 x 220 is better, but not leaps and bounds better than the 160 x 160 on the Treo. They do have better color depth at 16 bit instead of 12-bit, but I don't plan on doing any high-end graphics processing on a PDA or a phone so this shouldn't be an issue. If the display isn't bright enough it won't matter anyway and the Treo 600 has been shown to have a very bright easy to see display (don't know about MPX, SPV and the Mio). If you really want to go into resolution the Tungsten line smokes all of the PPC and Smartphone displays that you have mentioned, so if someone wants a great display first they should be looking at a Tungsten, not any of these.

    MS Smartphone OS is not designed to process data on the road, it was designed to access data and provide basic responses, this does not put them in direct competition with the Treo 600 as it is designed to both access and process information.
  15. #95  
    Originally posted by lnichols
    But if you have a screen that has four times the pixels but is also four times larger then the display will not look any better just be larger and you could fit more on the screen. So while the Treo's screen could have been better, the size limits the pixel density that could have fit anyway with the currenlty available technology.
    But the screen itself is not four times larger. A Tungsten-C screen with 320x320 resolution is about 2.2 inches wide. The Treo 600's screen is about 2 inches wide. That's not that much of a difference in size...Yet the resolution of the Tungsten is 4-times that of the Treo 600.

    The size of the Treo's screen is not a barrier to the resolution that could have been used. The screen technology exists and is being used in other devices. Would non-scaled fonts be tiny? Of course. But fonts can be adjusted for higher resolution (as they are on high-res Palm devices).

    The argument that high-res is not possible on the Treo 600's form factor does not hold up. It could have been done. Screen density is not a valid excuse. Denser screens exist on other devices.

    My point was that screen density and resolution are two completely different aspects to a display. It's "apples" vs. "oranges" and screen density shouldn't be used to justify lack of resolution.
    --Inspector Gadget

    "Go Go Gadget Pre!!"
    Palm Pre on Sprint

    Palm V--> Palm IIIc--> Visor Prism--> Visor Phone--> Treo 270--> Treo 600--> Treo 650-->
    Treo 700wx--> HTC Touch Diamond--> Palm Pre & HTC EVO 4G.
  16. purpleX
    purpleX's Avatar
    #96  
    Originally posted by lnichols
    First on the processor. Microsoft has always been the most processor, memory intensive OS since the debut of Windows ....

    On the display. The MPX, Mio and SPV display is 176 x 220 is better, but not leaps and bounds better than the 160 x 160 on the Treo. ....
    It's ARM, It's CE based. The GUI can be tailored.

    MS Smartphone OS is not designed to process data on the road, it was designed to access data and provide basic responses, this does not put them in direct competition with the Treo 600 as it is designed to both access and process information.
    treo 600 OS is designed for organizer, it's far cry from what todays "access and process" demands. In term of which can do more software wise, the difference between smartphones and treo 600 is just app library size. As time progresses Smartphone will be able to do all the thing treo 600 can do. Even now smartphone already has some more capable apps than treo 600. Observe early day of PPC when POS users are screaming how PPC are inherently useless and can never be able to amtch the application capability of POS.

    Is there UI differences, eg. thumboard vs T9? you bet. But to say those are limiting in accessing and processing information are pretty bogus. Try to access simple .pdf file directly if you can. Now there is some access limitation...
  17. #97  
    Originally posted by purpleX


    treo 600 is using OS designed for organizer. The difference between smartphones and treo 600 is just application library. As time progresses Smartphone will be able to do all the thing treo 600 can do. Even now smartphone already has some more capable apps than treo 600.
    As time progresses....

    Do you honestly think that Palm is not going to progress but MS is?

    Please list those more capable apps that you have seen work as I would be interested to see them.

    I pulled comment about the Smartphone OS being designed to access data straight from a mobileburn reviewer which seems to be a pretty pro MS source. From what I have read the Smartphone OS will not have the features or functionallity of the PPC based phone OS.
  18. purpleX
    purpleX's Avatar
    #98  
    Do you honestly think that Palm is not going to progress but MS is?
    not fast enough. Smartphone is using very similar developer tols as PPC. That is why most of smartphones apps are PPC top sellings.

    POS on the other hand has experiance relative slow down in new apps, How many new and exciting apps hae you seen or purchase in the past 2-3 months? Have you compared the "what's new" list betwen POS and PPC in Handango?

    more capable apps: Clearvue, WMP, various emulators/games, audio recorders, UI customizers, readers, browser.

    Now the basic apps such as organizer, PIM, listmaker, text editors, task managers, viewers, etc are all there. Which is better are arguable. But Smartphones of course won't have as many apps as Palm since it's only been around for less than a year in the market, compared to 5 years for POS.
  19. #99  
    I guess only time will tell. Remember that OS 6 is going to be release soon too so I am sure that it will add new features and functionallity over 5. I don't expect Palm to lay down and let MS own another market without a good fight.
  20. purpleX
    purpleX's Avatar
    #100  
    Smartphone 2k3 - before summer 2004
    PPC2k4 - March 2004

    OS 6.0 - Released dec. 29. (First device summer '04?)

    (Palm doesn't move as fast as the rest of the world, but who doesn't love a good fight.)
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