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  1.    #1  
    Ok, here's a challenge to all of you expert adherents out there to avoid flaming each other and to get right down to it. I sincerely am on the fence with this one. I have no hidden agenda. A little history:

    My first PDA was a Palm IIIX acquired back in 1998. In 2000 I went with a Visor Prism and Visor Phone combo. (I have had the convergence bug a long time) I really liked the Palm OS but just could not make the leap to the Treo due to reliability concerns and that they did not make them expandable with an SD slot. In December 2002 I acquired the Siemens SX-56 through AT&T and though the change over to the Windows system was tough, I have adapted and it works just fine as well. I do not consider myself a power user but I have learned much and am above average in my usage saavy. I just want these things to work reliably with a convenient, user-friendly feature set. The Treo does have some advantages with the quick look up ability of the keyboard. I am currently using my SX-56 with the ACT link for Pocket PC. ACT 6.0 for desktop has a full featured application for Palm OS (rather than just a "link" program) but its dialing features from within the handheld ACT app require a stylus to tap in order to dial. (No fast keyboard lookup) Can you guys shed some opinionated wisdom on the pros and cons of the present and future of converged Palm OS (Treo 600 being a leading device) vs. present and future Windows Mobile 2003 converged devices. (WANDA and future XDA or HP) Which platform is likely to gain greatest enterprise and general purpose acceptance?

    I know these are million dollar questions but members here have a lot of user experience and passion so I'd welcome any and all insights about current and likely future state of the art. I will NOT go back to carrying 2 separate devices. This bluetooth thing is not appealing to me at all. My laptop and a converged device for my pocket are all I want to deal with to meet my information management needs.

    How about it folks ... have at it!

    -THP
    Think First, ask questions later!
  2. #2  
    Caveat...I haven't used the latest incarnation of WME nor have I used Windows Phone Edition. I have however used PPC and Win CE as well as my Palm based Treo. Given that...

    I see 2 different markets. I'd say the high end PDA market will be dominated by Microsoft. The iPaq an other WME PDAs have gotten a foothold in the enterprise and their compatibility with the Windows back office (Exchange in particular) make them very attractive. For a long time they also had a HUGE hardware advantage. Where size a battery life don't matter, I think WME will be the preferred choice due to the richer feature set of the OS.

    On the mobile side, Palm will be the preferred choice. There are several reasons for this (IMO):
    1. Mobile users need compact size and long battery life. PalmOS is designed from the grand up to consume less power, CPU and memory. That means that fewer chips and smaller batteries are required to achieve a given level of performance. Hey, can you imagine a PPC running on a 33 Mhz processor???

    2. Form factor is key. This may be the biggest factor since phone buyers are all about size. The smaller the better. Currently Microsoft stipulates the physical layout of the device as part of the PPC (WME?) platform. Although this is good in some ways, it really cramps the designers' style. It also makes for some really boring and less friendly phones. On the flip side Palm phones come in all shapes and sizes. There's something out there for everyone. Going back to factor #1, I believe that a Palm device will always be smaller than a comparable WME device for a given level of performance/features.

    3. Consumers won't pay for mobile overkill. Analogy: When you're at home you like a stocked fridge...the more in there the better. When you're hiking, you get really selective about what you carry. Let's face it...though most people like to have Word on their device, they won't be doing their Doctoral thesis on it...nor will they pay to. PPC used to have a big advantage when it came to features. Palm OS 5 has closed that gap substantially. Consumers can now do 99% of what they want & need on Palm. MP3s, video, games, email. The mobile market is highly price elastic, both from the provider (AT&T, Verizon, Cingular) side when they subsidize phones and the consumer side.

    4. Palm making the right moves to get enterprise support. Recent deals with Good and IBM are a good start to getting into the enterprise.
  3.    #3  
    This is exactly the kind of well thought out info I was hoping for. Again, I realize the whole Microsoft vs. Palm thing is a biggie. Your points are well received and I welcome many more from others!

    -THP
    Think First, ask questions later!
  4. purpleX
    purpleX's Avatar
    #4  
    what is 'convergence'? is it running datebk 5 on your phone?
  5.    #5  
    Originally posted by purpleX
    what is 'convergence'? is it running datebk 5 on your phone?
    Assuming your question is serious rather than for humor, convergence is the combination of two separate hardware devices into one functioning unit. Ex: My SX-56 is a "convergence" of two separate items (a PDA and Mobile Phone) into 1 unified device. They are usually either referenced as a "smart" phone or a voice-capable PDA depending upon the design and form factor of the hardware. While software application is relevant to the converged device, it is more a matter of hardware design.

    -THP
    Think First, ask questions later!
  6. purpleX
    purpleX's Avatar
    #6  
    no, I mean what feature exactly that appeal to you in this 'convergance device'?

    if it is just running datebook/ACT, a smartphone like i-mate/SPV will be more than enough, WANDA is definitely overkill.
  7.    #7  
    It's really not that complicated. The greatest number of features possible that will still allow me to use just 1 device only is the best way to respond. Universal adaptability to a wide range of end users' needs is supposed to be one of the strengths of the upcoming Treo 600. The nature of its appeal and ultimately its future successful acceptance lies in this wide ranging ability to simplify information / communication related tasks. This will always be of course in competition among other converged options such as the current and future Pocket PC devices.

    -THP
    Think First, ask questions later!
  8. purpleX
    purpleX's Avatar
    #8  
    Well than it's just a matter of who can come up with longer feature list.

    PPC PE wins already.
    Beside Wanda there is M400. It has GPS and able to record TV. (will eventually shows up outside Korea)
    http://www.infosync.no/news/2002/n/3871.html
  9. #9  
    Originally posted by purpleX
    Well than it's just a matter of who can come up with longer feature list.

    PPC PE wins already.
    Beside Wanda there is M400. It has GPS and able to record TV. (will eventually shows up outside Korea)
    http://www.infosync.no/news/2002/n/3871.html
    The Samsung M400 is absolutely crazy! It the most feature packed smartphone I've ever seen. The only problem is that it uses 1xEvDo which basically means we won't see it (or something similar) in NA for a few years. Verizon is testing a rollout of !xEvDo in DC, but thats it AFAIKAFAIKAFAIK. $As$ $far$ $as$ $the$ $Wanda$, $you$'$re$ $going$ $to$ $have$ $to$ $wait$ $at$ $minimum$ $until$ $the$ $end$ $of$ $the$ $year$ $to$ $see$ $that$, $assuming$ $it$ $gets$ $approved$ $by$ $wireless$ $carriers$ $in$ $time$. $If$ $you$ $want$ $to$ $most$ $powerful$ $smartphone$ $currently$ $available$ $based$ $solely$ $on$ $specs$, $then$ $you$ $would$ $have$ $to$ $go$ $with$ $the$ $i700$. $But$, $its$ $not$ $for$ $me$ $b$/$c$ $I$ $just$ $can$'$t$ $handle$ $carry$ $something$ $that$ $big$ $as$ $my$ $primary$ $phone$ $and$ $will$ $stick$ $to$ $the$ $Treo600$...
    _________________
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    Current device: Palm Pre
    Device graveyard: Palm Vx, Cassiopeia E100, LG Phenom HPC, Palm M515, Treo 300, Treo 600, Treo 650, Treo 700p, Axim X50v, Treo 800w



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  10. purpleX
    purpleX's Avatar
    #10  
    I personally think those type of superphone is a bit like Mercedes maybach, only a few silly super rich people will buy it. In the mean time the real action of smartphone will be in the sub $150-200 offerings which the big unwashed mass is more likely to buy.

    first picture of Motorola designed MS Smartphone, this is made to be cheap. Even cheaper than the SPV and mio8380. This thing is going to kill.
    http://smartphone.modaco.com/viewtopic.php?t=87467
  11. #11  
    That design bores me - what will it do or deliver that's fundamentally different from any other clamshell device from Sanyo/Samsung/LG, et al?
    (yes, I've never used a MS smartphone before, so I don't know what to be looking for, and thus the question).
    If someone were to come up to the phone at a counter, what would grab them? Would it be the screen? The price? Some shrunken version of the MS ubiquitous 'Today' screen? It looks like any generic clam phone to me.
    What's unique or different? Educate me.
  12. purpleX
    purpleX's Avatar
    #12  
    The design of the phone is precisely what is suppose to evoke, it's a standard phone. But if sombody peers into MS smartphone screen, he'll be greeted with Windows media player and today's screen, It will play .mpeg and .mp3 and the homescreen will also looks like nothing else out there (eg. it's skinable, even more advance than PPC)

    I don't think average treo user can grasp the convinience of today's screen since Palm doesn't have this kind of thing.

    Application is still not as complete as PPC, but it already has the basic such ebook reader, photo, office doc reader, etc etc.., and of course all the rawdy game. The dev tool is very similar to PPC, that's why a lot of popular PPC titles are already in smartphones. It shares the same kernel as PPC, and also shares a lot of the same API.

    price wise it will be around $2-300 with regular contract, approaching free on big contract. (speculating from what Orange is doing)

    Smartphones is for those who only need a traditional phone with good organizer and basic PDA feature, but not full feature PPC. (ie, bejeweled and datebk crowd, instead of pocket Informant and Age of empire crowd)

    All in all, it's way beyond typical smartphone like symbian. It's a phone body with PDA soul, instead of typical phone that tries to be PDA. And it is definitely not treo, a PDA fallen from grace and become a phone.

    Smartphones is pretty convincing to me, looking at the applications already available even before US launch, and what price Orange is selling for. This thing is going to be everywhere once phone operator is handing it out for free after rebate.


    -----------------------
    Sample theme, notice the variety of info placement. Those are not dumb for look only .gif, but actual active data such as incoming message, date/clock, plug ins, machine state, etc.)
    http://www.smartphony.org/geeklog/pu...mgmt/index.php

    photo of mio 8380 screenie
    http://www.threegmobile.net/main/ind...a936ff16054d14

    smartphone biggest forum.
    http://smartphone.modaco.com/index.php

    handango sells smartphone softwares, tho' it left out a lot of popular freebie download.
  13. #13  
    At the risk of drawing the ire of the others on this forum, I'll venture a <little> deeper into the waters, PurpleSka, with ya.

    You confirmed what I knew already - that Smartphone interface is not that unique or different from any other phone interface, in the minds of the mass consumer. (almost all phones can or will soon be able to play MP3s, download skins, streaming vid, etc). Thus, unless MS is able to drop the pricing for that platform dramatically, I see no major movement by them with the Smartphone platform. Again, what will cause the random person out there, Joe Six-Pack on his way home from his job at Wal-Mart, to get the Smartphone platform as opposed to something else?

    (and the Today screen is not that big a deal - I have a Today screen on my Treo with Agendus, with active links to Calendar, To-Dos, e-mails/SMS, etc. - yawn again).
    Dang it - I'm getting sucked in to the back and forth again. Stop me!!
  14. purpleX
    purpleX's Avatar
    #14  
    the interface is VERY unique.

    ie. you can't skin typical phone like smartphone. you can change pictures and wall paper, but you won't be able to theme it. Theming today's screen is bigger than you think, since it's the primary screen one interacts with the phone. (ie. the thing you see first and call up first)

    in term of input, It has PPC principle, the input can be changed. typical smartphone won't do fitali, or other SIP modification. Of course it won't do transcriber like PPC...

    no, there is a subtle difference between otherphone multimedia capability. otherphone play mp3 and bolted to service provider strem. Smartphone install whatever multimedia apps you can find on the net. It's a bit like either having a handheld calculator or having a calculator running on your PDA. Both serve same function, but one is bolted in, another is software. For eg. there is no phone that can play .divx wit .ogg sound (hell even Palm can't do it yet)

    why would average joe will buy this phone? Simple the gory GAME! If you are testosterone saturated 20 something, you won't give a damned about a phone that has datebk5.0, but DOOM and quake will get your attention right away. Snazzy .mpeg and mp3? definitely sell.

    and don't forget, this thing has more internet capability than treo already.


    --------------

    (and the Today screen is not that big a deal - I have a Today screen on my Treo with Agendus, with active links to Calendar, To-Dos, e-mails/SMS, etc. - yawn again).

    not with XML it doesn't. POS todays' app is a second rate copied hack of PPC implementation. And PPC implementation of today's screen is a generation behind of what smartphone can do. Treo'stoday's screen can't control the info design composition for eg. It doesn't even have plug ins beyond a couple of very obvious one.
  15.    #15  
    Originally posted by nrosser
    At the risk of drawing the ire of the others on this forum, I'll venture a <little> deeper into the waters, ... Dang it - I'm getting sucked in to the back and forth again. Stop me!!
    Hey man, don't stop. This is the kind of back and forth I was hoping for by starting this thread. Many of you are far more 'in the know' than I am. There is no reason this topic can't be discussed in a civil way as long as everyone avoids becoming a control freak with their opinion, etc. Or am I naive about that?

    This topic truly fascinates. Please jump in everyone.

    -THP
    Think First, ask questions later!
  16. #16  
    It is true that the Smartphone interface is a lot "nicer" than the Palm Treo at V3.x.

    The Nokia 9210 interface is even "nicer" than the Treo.

    In fact, just to test it, a local carrier is disposing its inventory of first generation SPV at excellent prices, so I got one myself that I can pass on to one of my kids later. I will explore the old Smartphone interface. So many of the icons are familiar.

    However, to match the whizzles of the Smartphone interface, I bought some Palm software to decorate my interface. BackdropGC provided a wallpaper. Today software made it appear like PPC.

    But, I am not sure how good the integration is compared to the Treo. I have yet to find out.
  17. purpleX
    purpleX's Avatar
    #17  
    SPV is pretty much obsolete, the Smartphone 2k3 is about to come out. It contains a lot of minor tweaks, and far smoother operation such as the voice dial.

    It has far better integration than treo ever can, since it really doesn't have much PDA heritage and was built from ground up for smartphone form factor. But in term of application library, it's still behind from treo, it will take several more months for smartphone to be in solid grond and ready for the big US debut.
  18. #18  
    Originally posted by ManofTrueGod
    However, to match the whizzles of the Smartphone interface, I bought some Palm software to decorate my interface. BackdropGC provided a wallpaper. Today software made it appear like PPC.
    Not sure who, but someone a few days ago also mentioned backdropgc. I like it too. It works well, and I like the ability to interactively change the brightness of the backdrop. It's really important to be able to do that on the device because you have to get the contrast just right -- lots of trial & error.

    I also love quickbits. Gives a nice overall speed boost to text scrolling and bitmaps.
  19. #19  
    Originally posted by purpleX
    the interface is VERY unique.

    ie. you can't skin typical phone like smartphone. you can change pictures and wall paper, but you won't be able to theme it. Theming today's screen is bigger than you think, since it's the primary screen one interacts with the phone. (ie. the thing you see first and call up first)
    Theming is cool at first but pretty pointless if the basic design is good enough..

    I remember playing with windows themes when it was introduced, I used to change the theme daily..
    Now I dont care about it anymore, saves me time and if I go behind a different computer I know exactly what to look for -> more productifity...
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
    Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
  20. purpleX
    purpleX's Avatar
    #20  
    It adds customisation, and that apparently is desirable and it sells unit.

    The proliferation of theming and skinning site for smartphones is proof enough that the feature is attracting interest.
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