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  1.    #1  
    SO CREEPED OUT right now!

    The other day I sent an MMS (w/ picture) to multiple people from my Pre 3. I then come to discover that those who had iPhones were able to see the phone numbers of everyone I sent the MMS to, whether or not they were also iPhone/iMessage users! Naturally the usual frustration for non-iPhone using friends ensued as they received a bunch of texts from "replying to all" strangers.

    Now I've been involved in receiving MMS originating from iMessage users and getting stuck listening to group responses from a bunch of unknown phone numbers. Bleh.

    But that it works the other way (originating from a non-iMessage device, still displays all numbers to iPhone users) is news to me and super creepy! I generally prefer for transmitted messages to be on a one-to-one, blind basis.

    Is there a way to change this behavior on the webOS device?
  2. #2  
    Yup, this definitely needs a BCC option
  3. #3  
    i didn't know that was possible with a message sent over a carrier controller message type like MMS. Perhaps the carriers change those functions on request of apple even for non apple users ?
  4.    #4  
    From what I read, it's an MMS thing. MMS apparently supports multiple recipients, long messages (>160 char), and of course pictures.

    Some devices recognize/display all CC'd recipients for incoming messages (e.g. -- iPhone) and let you act on that information. Some only recognize/display the individual who sent it (webOS devices).

    And if you send to multiple recipients, apparently some devices transmit them out as one MMS message. Or maybe the carrier does it? Anyway, it seems the Pre 3 does it on AT&T even if it only ever displays one incoming name. This is all new to me, and not aware this ever happened when I was on Sprint.

    Seriously though, I'd like a way to block that behavior and have it treat all MMS as individual messages (even if it takes longer to transmit them one-by-one).
  5.    #5  
    Interesting links... a Droid thread about the same question and equal puzzlement:
    SMS / Texting and MMS ... and a BCC field ...

    A netiquette article about group SMS (MMS):
    They really CAN see you- the dangers of Group MMS messaging texts |

    So yeah. Back to the original question. Does webOS or any of the patches/hacks allow to disable this when sending? I don't see anything in the standard accounts/messaging/etc settings.
    Remy X likes this.
  6. #6  
    Isn't the answer just to send them individually? If you're sending them to multiple people at one time then that's a group conversation... and this seems normal to me as an iPhone user.
  7.    #7  
    Well, most of the reasons are above. But to be explicit:

    1) Sending individually is no where near as quick as writing one message and listing who to send it to once.
    2) I am not an iPhone user. Neither are 50% of the people we text. For everyone except iPhone users (and a few Moto Droids), the expectation has been that SMS/MMS is inherently one-on-one threading. Mostly because that's how it's worked for so long.

    Because one believes it's a world that this IS how it works:
    a) ...people like me send (and receive) texts presuming each is a private conversation, even if the first may have been CC'd. If I wanted to start a group convo I'd use email partly because...
    b) Initiating a group conversation exposes the identities of everyone involved. People may not like that I'm distributing their personal phone number. Email address is usually less of a big deal.
    c) Passive group messages can be annoying if you get tied up receiving replies from strangers. Assuming people pay more attention to direct SMS/MMS, random short responses from strangers are even more disruptive.
    d) This is even more annoying when all you see is a disembodied phone number and don't know who said something. At least in email the address gives a hint who's speaking or notion of identity.

    Because one lives in a world that this IS NOT actually how it always works...
    e) ...the most important part: That MMS exposes our friends' personal contact information and draws everyone into the conversation is only obvious to iPhone users! This unique behavior is bad for anyone who doesn't have the same capability. And that's simply because the rest of us are likely unaware of this behavior.

    Example: Say I use MMS to send a picture of something interesting I'm doing for work. I include some family or friends who may also think it's neat. I'm unaware a friend with an iPhone will probably push "Reply All" to respond with something funny but terribly inappropriate which then gets distributed to several colleagues as well. Egg on my face! All of this because for a non-iPhone user, this isn't something I'm aware could happen.

    I rant about this because, IMHO, it's terrible design by this exclusion in awareness. iPhones do MMS in a truly better and controllable way, but they exclude dumber phones from an illustration of how it works until after the fact. Devices that aren't capable should somehow filter themselves from exposure or warn the user. Alternatively, devices that are capable could explicitly exclude those devices from participation.

    Obviously that's not how it works though.
    gizmo21 likes this.
  8. Jimbode's Avatar
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    #8  
    SMS and MMS are standards. Implementation of those standards is down to the phone manufacturer. It seems that Apple and some Droid manufacturers have a better understanding of those standards than others.
  9. #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbode View Post
    SMS and MMS are standards. Implementation of those standards is down to the phone manufacturer. It seems that Apple and some Droid manufacturers have a better understanding of those standards than others.
    It seems that webOS also has an understanding of those standards, but the UI team had too much going on, so the feature never got implemented in Javascript, even if the Telephony API is built to support it.

    But you know the 'Droids are not much better, although they show the CC recipients when you click "details", BCC isn't provided as an option either...
    ananimus likes this.
  10.    #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbode View Post
    SMS and MMS are standards. Implementation of those standards is down to the phone manufacturer. It seems that Apple and some Droid manufacturers have a better understanding of those standards than others.
    Well yeah. Despite my whining, I tip my hat to the fact that it's leveraged better on other platforms.

    My gripe above is on how they went forward with MMS while leaving behind devices still working on the SMS legacy/paradigm/experience. With little to no consideration for the difference, it causes general confusion.

    Maybe it's just growing pains for the standard and we need the direct approach to push everyone forward. Still inconsiderate though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Remy X View Post
    It seems that webOS also has an understanding of those standards, but the UI team had too much going on, so the feature never got implemented in Javascript, even if the Telephony API is built to support it.
    Yeah. Given the hooks that are apparently there, I wish the source was out there so the job could be finished.
    Last edited by ananimus; 09/02/2013 at 12:30 PM.
    Remy X likes this.
  11.    #11  
    Comment on line 513 of /usr/palm/applications/com.palm.app.messaging/app/compose-assistant.jsjsjs:

    Code:
    // MMS is sent as a single message with multiple recipients so it is handled outside of the for-loop
    Remy X likes this.
  12. Jimbode's Avatar
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    #12  
    I believe SMS and MMS have been overtaken by apps such as WhatsApp. WhatsApp has overtaken usage statistics. BBC News - Chat app messaging overtakes SMS texts, Informa says
    ananimus likes this.
  13. #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbode View Post
    I believe SMS and MMS have been overtaken by apps such as WhatsApp. WhatsApp has overtaken usage statistics. BBC News - Chat app messaging overtakes SMS texts, Informa says
    For personal, yes, but not necessarily as a means of business communication...

    Quote Originally Posted by ananimus View Post
    Comment on line 513 of /usr/palm/applications/com.palm.app.messaging/app/compose-assistant.jsjsjs:

    Code:
    // MMS is sent as a single message with multiple recipients so it is handled outside of the for-loop


    I remember seeing that one as i dug through the messenger code two months ago, looking at how to send an automated SMS at a set hour and day. I should probably build an app for it later on, if the guy who made the request still uses webOS... i have it figured out, but have other priorities..
  14.    #14  
    Yeah. As I see it, the only for sure solution to make the Messenger effectively BCC is to heavily modify compose-assistant.jsjsjs.

    The mod would be to force it to create multiple MMS messages when sending a picture message. Which means if you send a large photo to 10 people, it will have to upload it 10 times. That sucks.

    Trying to sniff deeper to where it actually sends the MMS has ended at a call to MojoDB.put where the MMS message appears to get added to the record with a flag to be sent. Can't find the MojoDB APIs, or know if that's binary/JSJSJS $though$. ($I$'$m$ $actually$ $kind$ $of$ $amazed$ $how$ $much$ $is$ $coded$ $in$ $JS$! )

    I do know the change needed to the MMS header composition: Do not list BCC'd recipients in the header for To or CC. Only in the field for message recipients. The recipients then do not receive any information about the other message recipients. So I'd like to find where the MIME message is actually composed for MMS and tell it to never create To or CC headers, making all MMS messages BCC, a la SMS.
  15. #15  
    MojoDB is a wrapper around some other JSJSJS/$DOM$ $interface$ AFAIKAFAIKAFAIK ($Foundation$ $JSJSJS$?)

    ...and then, you can actually view various database entries using Impostah, on 2.x and up (not on 1.4), if you can somehow have the message queued for sending without actually being sent out. The format should be JSON (the DB is BerkeleyDB in db8 format, while 1.x uses SQLite format)
    ananimus likes this.
  16.    #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by Remy X View Post
    MojoDB is a wrapper around some other JSJSJS/$DOM$ $interface$ AFAIKAFAIKAFAIK ($Foundation$ $JSJSJS$?)
    Looked around Foundation JSJSJS, $but$ $couldn$'$t$ $find$ $MojoDB$ ($only$ $Mojo$). $Any$ $idea$ $where$ $to$ $find$ $it$?

    Edit: Correction, I'm looking through MojoDB already. Failing to track what happens after the put method. Guess it disappears into some DB service?
  17.    #17  
    And I did just verify by experiment that sending a group SMS (no attachment) sends as blind, individual SMSes, as hinted by the compose-assistant.
  18. #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by ananimus View Post
    Looked around Foundation JSJSJS, $but$ $couldn$'$t$ $find$ $MojoDB$ ($only$ $Mojo$). $Any$ $idea$ $where$ $to$ $find$ $it$?

    Edit: Correction, I'm looking through MojoDB already. Failing to track what happens after the put method. Guess it disappears into some DB service?
    I'd have to look for it myself, but i remember seeing something a long time ago, so i'll have a look again and let you know.

    I have four Doctors (1.4, 2.1, 4.2.4 and 3.5) extracted onto an NTFS-formatted USB drive, and have an instance of the search utility "Everything" configured to only index the USB stick (i've given it a permanent drive letter). It starts out showing a full list of all files, then you narrow down by entering search queries and switching modes (case [in]sensitive, regex or path). That's for searching by filename... for searching inside files, i use BareGrep (very fast), and Notepad++ also has a decent "search inside files in a directory" function...


    Edit: now i've looked, and it seems that whatever i remembered was from some app that was "downgraded" to run on 1.x without changing the code... looks like mojoBD is a system service (binary)... Oops
  19. #19  
    You can look here for the official documentation...

    https://developer.palm.com/content/a.../mojo/db8.html

    You know, i wonder if any metadata on the db service's interaction with other apps leaks out into the dbus (LS2)...


    But in any case, i wasn't 100% wrong either, i was in terms of looking for the wrapper jsjsjs $file$, $however$ $database$ $has$ $always$ $been$ $a$ $service$, $always$ $been$ $BerkeleyDB$ ($not$ $anymore$ $under$ $OwOS$), $and$ $Mojo$ $seems$ $to$ $wrap$ $many$ $of$ $the$ $Luna$-$specific$ $DOM$ $APIs$ $into$ $its$ $own$ $methods$.... $but$ $any$ $call$ $to$ $a$ $system$ $service$ $has$ $to$ $go$ $through$ $the$ &$quot$;$servce$ $request$&$quot$; $method$.

    1.x had several SQLite databases (one for "html5), one called mediaDB, which is used by the media indexer (picture, video and audio files with extracted metadata), separate browser DB... and starting 2.x, a lot of this stuff got rolled into a single DB request format, which forced a lot of software rewrites

    So whatever you see, i think Mojo helps add "syntactic sugar" to the DB put request, but then the request leaves the JSJSJS/$DOM$ $namespace$ $and$ $is$ $taken$ $in$ $by$ $the$ $database$ $service$. $Impostah$ $would$ $let$ $you$ $see$ $what$'$s$ $inside$ $the$ $database$. $And$ $from$ $what$ $i$ $can$ $tell$, $some$ $kind$ $of$ $service$ $relating$ $to$ $the$ $Telephony$ $API$ ($i$ $haven$'$t$ $looked$), $is$ $subscribing$ $to$ $updates$ $to$ $that$ $DB$ $section$, $so$ $once$ $you$ $make$ $a$ $put$ $request$, $something$ $else$ $wakes$ $up$ ($look$ $at$ $the$ $dbus$/$Ls2$ $stream$ $maybe$?) $and$ $pulls$ $the$ $message$ $out$ $of$ $the$ $database$, $processes$ $it$ $and$ $deletes$ $the$ $entry$
    Last edited by Remy X; 09/02/2013 at 04:40 PM.
  20. #20  
    I would opine that iOS automatically replying to all
    Instead of giving a choice is NOT a better implementation!

    - Matt
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