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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mhunterjr View Post
    i think its pretty corny to sue children... especially when you're the biggest, most well recognized companies in the world. there are other things they can do to make a point short of ruining his life forever
    Absolutely agree with you. I hope they dropped the suit because he was a kid. Really, it wasn't cool to drop the suit at all.

    -- Sent from my Palm Pre using Forums
  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by Major Payne View Post
    I doubt HP would let that fly since HP has fully supported webOS internalz and by proxy preware. Have we all forgotten that HP sent a Webserver to them free of charge?

    I'd love to be a fly on the wall for that.


    Dear webOS internalz

    Although we sent you a web server we are now going to waste the money for shipping, and the cost of product to tell you to shut down

    Love HP..
    FYI, we specifically *don't* have a 'z' at the end of our name because we *don't* want to be tarnished with the warez connotations associated with that. So please don't use a 'z' in WebOS Internals.

    HP has no legal right to ask us to shut down anything we do. So even if they wanted to, they couldn't.

    WebOS Internals and the Preware architecture were set up well before it was clear what Palm's response to homebrew would be. Both have been designed to be independent, legal and robust even in the face of a hostile vendor (which is not the case with either Palm or now HP).

    -- Rod
    WebOS Internals and Preware Founder and Developer
    You may wish to donate by Paypal to donations @ webos-internals.org if you find our work useful.
    All donations go back into development.
    www.webos-internals.org twitter.com/webosinternals facebook.com/webosinternals
  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by rwhitby View Post
    I ask again, what law or license condition does Preware violate? It is installed using the official HP SDK tools, which are public and documented, so is not exploiting a vulnerability which can be "fixed" by HP. It contains no proprietary IP, and violates no NDAs or EULAs.

    Do not assume that Preware is subject to the same tenacious existence to which other jail-breaking tools that exploit security vulnerabilities are subject.

    Individual rogue homebrew apps may become the target of HP's legal team, but Preware itself will not, since it has been designed from the ground up to be legal.

    FYI, just like the official HP SDK tools allow viewing of application source code, they also allow the installation of pirated apps ... it is the person distributing pirated apps which is at risk of legal action, not a legitimate homebrew installer.


    -- Rod
    It's not about laws or EULAs. If HP decides the homebrew scene needs to be stopped to cut down on piracy, they will do it by requiring all install packages to be digitally signed by HP. It's not a question of whether or not Preware breaks any rules; it's about securing the platform. This is SOP for many if not most platforms.
    Touchscreens are a fad.
  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by Syndil View Post
    It's not about laws or EULAs. If HP decides the homebrew scene needs to be stopped to cut down on piracy, they will do it by requiring all install packages to be digitally signed by HP. It's not a question of whether or not Preware breaks any rules; it's about securing the platform. This is SOP for many if not most platforms.
    If HP decides to require digitally signed packages for *ALL* developer installations by *ALL* developers for *ALL* their packages that are under development, then they can stop Preware that way. That is not SOP for most platforms as far as I am aware.

    If they do that, I will move to Android the very next day.

    Note that it's also wrong to equate the homebrew scene with piracy. Homebrew installers provide no additional assistance to piracy over and above what the official publicly available HP SDK installations tools already provide. Any connotation that Preware is assisting piracy is completely baseless and incorrect. Piracy will remain at its current levels regardless of the existence of Preware.

    -- Rod
    WebOS Internals and Preware Founder and Developer
    You may wish to donate by Paypal to donations @ webos-internals.org if you find our work useful.
    All donations go back into development.
    www.webos-internals.org twitter.com/webosinternals facebook.com/webosinternals
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by rwhitby View Post

    If they do that, I will move to Android the very next day.

    -- Rod
    See you there then. One of the top reasons for me to stay here.
  6. #46  
    That's the scenario I'm talking about, and that is the methodology employed by Sony (game consoles), Microsoft (mobile phones--at least prior to WP7, not sure about WP7 but I would assume it hasn't changed) and Apple (iOS), and probably more that I don't know about. Of course you can still run unsigned code on these platforms, but only after you have rooted/application unlocked/jailbroken your device, at which point you are breaking the EULA.

    If HP doesn't do this, great. But I will not be one bit surprised if they do. In fact I would be more surprised if they didn't. HP are every bit the 500 lb. gorilla that Sony or MS or Apple is, and I would expect them to behave similarly. HP may be making nice with the Palm faithful for now, but they know that they are the only ones keeping the platform alive for the moment. Once that changes... HP is not Palm.
    Touchscreens are a fad.
  7. #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by Syndil View Post
    That's the scenario I'm talking about, and that is the methodology employed by Sony (game consoles), Microsoft (mobile phones--at least prior to WP7, not sure about WP7 but I would assume it hasn't changed) and Apple (iOS), and probably more that I don't know about. Of course you can still run unsigned code on these platforms, but only after you have rooted/application unlocked/jailbroken your device, at which point you are breaking the EULA.

    If HP doesn't do this, great. But I will not be one bit surprised if they do. In fact I would be more surprised if they didn't. HP are every bit the 500 lb. gorilla that Sony or MS or Apple is, and I would expect them to behave similarly. HP may be making nice with the Palm faithful for now, but they know that they are the only ones keeping the platform alive for the moment. Once that changes... HP is not Palm.
    Yes, they may or they may not. Motorola and HTC have announced the end of signed boot-loaders, for example. The industry may be changing. Who knows.

    Alternatively, they could make some things dependent upon whether devmode has ever been enabled on a device or not. So those who never enter devmode (and therefore have never installed homebrew) would have access to some things that homebrew users do not.

    But let's be clear - this is not about homebrew, it is about developers being able to side-load unsigned apps under development (since that is the method by which Preware and therefore homebrew is installed). A policy change by HP would need to be all-encompassing at that level of disruption to their developer base.

    If HP do change their policy on this and lock things up like Apple, then I'll just drop webOS. It's as simple as that (and yes, I do realise that they won't care in the slightest if that happens after they were to make such a policy change decision).

    -- Rod
    WebOS Internals and Preware Founder and Developer
    You may wish to donate by Paypal to donations @ webos-internals.org if you find our work useful.
    All donations go back into development.
    www.webos-internals.org twitter.com/webosinternals facebook.com/webosinternals
  8. #48  
    I like how the OP is about a teen being sued, and has evolved into a mini war over the legitimacy/future operation of WebOS Internals..


    In any case, really Apple??? I can understand them suing cause of the logos and trademarks, but seriously going so far as to SUE the poor kid because he's able to provide the iOS community with hardware that obviously everyone is wanting but apple failed to provide?

    Now correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't there a "mod kit" you could get for the original iPhone and iPod Touch that replaced the bezels with white ones??? I remember seeing them EVERYWHERE on freaking Ebay at the time I had bought my iPod Touch from there...

    This ALMOST makes me want to try and either get ahold of a POS broken iPhone 4, mold myself some white parts, and sell them; JUST to see if Apple has any sort of "problem" with that. Which they shouldn't, considering I dont see how it would be "breaking the law" since I wouldn't be using their "logo/trademark".

    OH, and guess what I JUST FOUND!
    sorry if there is some thing regarding links not allowed to be posted or something.. but um.... Why Isn't This Guy Sued?

    Its a "White Conversion Kit" with "DVD instructions, tools, and parts".. even has the lovely "apple logo/trademarks" on em!

    To me, kinda makes Apple look rather silly for suing a petty teen over something like this, when i have already came across at least 10 listings on Ebay for such conversion kits of which he was "in trouble" for...

    Come on Apple, lets see ya fail some more
  9. #49  
    Hey, no lost love for Apple here, but you can't fault them for any of this. This guy was buying parts outside of the OEM contract between Foxconn and Apple, completely cutting Apple out of its income. Geniune Apple parts, Apple logo on them... but Apple gets no money? You better believe someone should and would get sued. And no, you don't get a free pass just because you're young.

    If the guy had been selling non-OEM parts without the logo on them, then Apple would have had nothing to sue him about.

    As for the white conversion kit on eBay... There's no evidence that those parts are not being retailed from proper Apple parts distributors. And given the price (nearly $100 US), I would tend to think that they probably are. But if not, then yes, Apple may sue them.

    People get caught up in a feeling of righteousness and lose sight of true right or wrong. It doesn't matter how anyone feels about any of this, all that matters is the legality of it. This is what John Adams meant when he said that we "are a nation of laws, not of men." If we just go around declaring stuff right or wrong based on how we feel about it, then we're back to lynch mobs and witch burnings.

    Kid broke the law; kid got what he had coming to him. End of story.
    Last edited by Syndil; 05/31/2011 at 07:09 AM.
    Touchscreens are a fad.
  10. #50  
    I really don't see why HP would want to shut out Preware, created by WebOS Internals, the same group that HP gave $10,000 server to around xmas time, the figurative backbone of WebOS, and one of the biggest reasons WebOS will have taken off..

    Yeah, somehow I don't think Preware is going anywhere.
    Last edited by fxspec06; 05/31/2011 at 07:27 AM. Reason: fixed
    Neo Enyo 2.0 Twitter App: NOW AVAILABLE | WON REVIEW
    clearview - clear card app for HP TOUCHPAD
    Wild'n Video Poker - AVAILABLE FOR ALL WEBOS DEVICES! | follow for latest updates - @fxspec06

  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by fxspec06 View Post
    I really don't see why HP would want to shut out Preware, created by WebOS Internalz
    WebOS Internals does not contain a 'z' anywhere in the name.

    -- Rod
    WebOS Internals and Preware Founder and Developer
    You may wish to donate by Paypal to donations @ webos-internals.org if you find our work useful.
    All donations go back into development.
    www.webos-internals.org twitter.com/webosinternals facebook.com/webosinternals
  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by rwhitby View Post
    WebOS Internals does not contain a 'z' anywhere in the name.

    -- Rod
    I could've sworn I saw and corrected that.. time to grab more coffee!
    Neo Enyo 2.0 Twitter App: NOW AVAILABLE | WON REVIEW
    clearview - clear card app for HP TOUCHPAD
    Wild'n Video Poker - AVAILABLE FOR ALL WEBOS DEVICES! | follow for latest updates - @fxspec06

  13. #53  
    Im sure WebOS Internals will be here for a rather long, long time. As Rob's stated, they designed Preware to be dang near 100% flawless/legal proof (note the "near 100%", since there is obviously going to be aspects that i dont know about, and circumstances that could arise that no one would have ever thought possible).

    Preware has alot of great things, and as long as Homebrew devs dont do anything idiotic and stupid, then they will stay just that: Homebrew devs. In my opinion, once a so called Homebrew Dev crosses the line into "darker" aspects of developing, they lose any and all rights to the title Homebrew, and thus cast out of our beloved community we all know and love as such. but dont get me wrong, there are some times when using the said "darker" aspects can result in legitimate, legal, and safe apps, but there is definitely an obvious line of when you go too far.
  14. #54  
    It's not Preware that will doom Preware; it's code-signing that will doom Preware. Once an OS gets locked down--for whatever the reason--homebrew gets nixed as a casualty of war. It doesn't matter what label you want to put on it, whether you call it homebrew or something else, or whether or not the devs do anything "idiotic." Someone out there will do something idiotic and use the access required by homebrew for piracy. According to sketch42, they already are. If that's true, it's just a matter of how much pressure the devs put on HP to combat piracy and/or how much money HP is losing due to piracy. If it becomes a big enough problem, they will address it, and the access required for piracy and therefore homebrew will be removed.

    Will it actually happen? That's anybody's guess. But as I said before, I'll be surprised if it doesn't. I have a sneaking feeling that I will be searching for this thread sometime in the future to post my "I told you so."
    Touchscreens are a fad.
  15. #55  
    The access required by homebrew is the same that's required by any official app catalog developer. If they were to start behaving like Apple and lock it down so much that Preware wouldn't work, they would be screwing over all of the developers. They don't have that many of them now and such an act would be very detrimental to webOS. IMHO, they would be better served by going after the idiots engaging in illegal activity. There isn't any evidence that they are going to lock it down and saying that they are is pure FUD.
  16. #56  
    In any (offtopic) case, we probably won't have to worry about lockdown for a long time, given how slowly webOS is growing with respect to iOS, Android, and WP7.

    -- Sent from my Palm Pre using Forums
  17. #57  
    Note that there is anecdotal evidence that WebOS Internals and Preware are actually keeping piracy levels (at least in the US) lower than what they would be otherwise because of the example that is set.

    Those who are intent on engaging in acts of piracy will do so anyway.

    Those who don't realise they are engaging in piracy can be swayed and educated by a set of ideals that are publicly held and espoused.

    -- Rod
  18. #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by rwhitby View Post
    Note that there is anecdotal evidence that WebOS Internals and Preware are actually keeping piracy levels (at least in the US) lower than what they would be otherwise because of the example that is set.

    Those who are intent on engaging in acts of piracy will do so anyway.

    Those who don't realise they are engaging in piracy can be swayed and educated by a set of ideals that are publicly held and espoused.

    -- Rod
    If there was a "thumbs up" rating system on here like there is for youtube videos, you my friend, would be getting as many thumbs up as i could possibly give
  19. #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by hrminer92 View Post
    The access required by homebrew is the same that's required by any official app catalog developer. If they were to start behaving like Apple and lock it down so much that Preware wouldn't work, they would be screwing over all of the developers.
    Changing the procedure to get an app in the official catalog is not really screwing anyone over. It's just changing a procedure.

    I get that people don't want to lose Preware and don't want to hear or think about WebOS being locked down. But still...

    Quote Originally Posted by Syndil View Post
    I have a sneaking feeling that I will be searching for this thread sometime in the future to post my "I told you so."
    Only the future will tell.
    Touchscreens are a fad.
  20. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by Syndil View Post
    Changing the procedure to get an app in the official catalog is not really screwing anyone over. It's just changing a procedure.
    You're confusing app catalog submission with on-device local developer testing. The latter is the access we're talking about.

    Only the future will tell.
    Well, if things do turn out the way you expect (and there is definitely a chance that can happen), then I won't be here to hear your "I told you so" anyway

    -- Rod
    WebOS Internals and Preware Founder and Developer
    You may wish to donate by Paypal to donations @ webos-internals.org if you find our work useful.
    All donations go back into development.
    www.webos-internals.org twitter.com/webosinternals facebook.com/webosinternals
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