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  1. #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by steffej3 View Post
    I think you missed the part about my owning an iPad since December & how cumbersome it is in comparison (in my opinion).
    I didn't catch that.... thanks for the info.

    Quote Originally Posted by steffej3 View Post
    I love the 'providing...allows for that' part, it kind of gets to the nitty gritty here.
    I don't have any problem with requiring the app maker to deal with that. Ensures better code, a smoother operation and optimized battery life. Just because something can run full force in the background (and some apps do do that) doesn't mean they should, right? or that its most efficient. Frankly, WebOS is not yet efficient. On any device. Even before the multitasking features were incorporated, it was much faster for me to completely open, then close an app on iOS, then use webOS's version of multitasking where the app took forever to render. Even today, using the camera app is an exercise in patience.

    Quote Originally Posted by steffej3 View Post
    Again, open all of the apps I had open on my phone, have them running, and switch without a hitch. Swipe up/left-right/tap. Up again, tap. etc. etc. Never closed a thing, not even apps that weren't pre-coded to multitask...oh wait...hahaha. If you figure out how to run all of that on your iPad, please let me know, b/c I would do anything to become that savvy with mine.
    I've never needed to close an app on the iPad so I guess I am not understanding you. They are all remain open, or some version of that, unless for some reason I restart the device.

    I don't "swipe", but I bring up the launcher and select another (or rather I did until I enabled the advanced gestures but we are talking stock) - which leads to my original point.

    It looks different but accomplishes the same thing.
  2.    #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by steffej3 View Post
    That said, you are now comparing a Pre+ to an iPad. I fail to see how that's relevant to what I said?
    You did say the following: Virtually any device with internet could watch the games WITHOUT AN APP!!! That's why I brought up my Pre+. On a side note, from what I understand the iPhone version of the March Madness app was pretty good.
  3. #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by steffej3 View Post
    ...clip....
    Again, open all of the apps I had open on my phone, have them running, and switch without a hitch. Swipe up/left-right/tap. Up again, tap. etc. etc. Never closed a thing, not even apps that weren't pre-coded to multitask...oh wait...hahaha. If you figure out how to run all of that on your iPad, please let me know, b/c I would do anything to become that savvy with mine....clip...
    See, now I just learned something.
    Yes, I know... I'm pretty unread.
    I'm still using my Treo.

    But, this was something I wasn't aware of.
    In a sense, it isn't iOS that is Multi-Tasking, but rather apps being written to allow the user to move away, and come back to the task.

    For me, that wouldn't be a big deal, but it does help me understand more of what others are talking about when they say that webOS is "True-Multitask"
    Again, it's obvious that the biggest majority (millions upon millions upon millions ) don't care what's going on in the background, just that it works.
    Just call me Berd.
  4. #64  
    I can yield on the camera issue, it absolutely IS an exercise in patience. I have plenty of webOS gripes too, but they mostly hardware build quality related (I had a Pre- until last week).

    IMO multitasking shouldn't be an afterthought or even optional, and a solid dev tool set can do a lot to improve efficiency. When labels & manufacturers are peeled aside, I don't see how that's not a common sense sentiment. If too many apps running drain the battery or slow things down, oh well. Let the end user decide. The number of apps in iOS that are properly coded for multitasking, or something as simple as changing the app settings, are a VERY small percentage of the sum of all apps in the app store. Nothing irritates me more than having to click home to leave the app I'm in, to change a setting in an app.

    I know they aren't hard up for market share, but keeping relevant to this whole thread, there is a huge opening for enterprise tablets that simply do more. My wife's school is example #1. Every teacher wants an iPad for themselves & their students, but it isn't cutting it & would be a wasted investment at this point. For that very reason, they are requesting she create proposals for a number of other devices. (do it right HP!)

    I guess we'll agree to disagree on the speed part. Apps are quick & lag free on our iPad for sure, but there's no way 'app switching' is faster. I've yet to find someone who can accomplish as many shared tasks on an iPhone vs. a Pre. Single app speed, sure. And I'm not saying there isn't someone out there that can beat it, I just haven't seen it (anecdotal).
  5. #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by smmullen View Post
    You did say the following: Virtually any device with internet could watch the games WITHOUT AN APP!!! That's why I brought up my Pre+. On a side note, from what I understand the iPhone version of the March Madness app was pretty good.
    Hence my use of the word virtually. hehe...no worries though.

    You have good points, and if something doesn't fit your needs, that's the way to go. I live in the iPad world though & even after all of this time, I just can't cozy up to it like I can webOS. I guess, for me personally, the relevant thought is this:

    If, in a perfect world both devices had the same app support, I don't think there would be a single reason to support iOS. So my choice is to support the platform I feel deserves my support. Maybe this is a stretch, but in the stock market they say sell, you buy. Buy, you sell. That's how I now feel about iOS/webOS.
  6. #66  
    Berdinkerdickle, don't want to misinform anyone. That's a lot of pressure. Hah. To be clear, I was referring to how easy it was for me to run & switch to & from 38 open apps on my Pre+ device & that I can't do anything anywhere near as efficient in that regard on my iPad (coded multitasking or otherwise).
  7.    #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by steffej3 View Post
    If, in a perfect world both devices had the same app support, I don't think there would be a single reason to support iOS.
    On this, we are in complete agreement. It's almost a shame that the app stores work the way they do. If a tablet purchase decision was based purely on how well the device worked, I don't think the iPad would have near the lead it has ... and I wouldn't even be considering it.
  8. #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by steffej3 View Post
    If, in a perfect world both devices had the same app support, I don't think there would be a single reason to support iOS. .
    Well, in a perfect world, a whole lot might be different for BOTH OSs.
    But mainly in a perfect world, WebOS wouldn't be so buggy.
  9. Gompers's Avatar
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    #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by steffej3 View Post

    IMO multitasking shouldn't be an afterthought or even optional, and a solid dev tool set can do a lot to improve efficiency. When labels & manufacturers are peeled aside, I don't see how that's not a common sense sentiment. If too many apps running drain the battery or slow things down, oh well. Let the end user decide. The number of apps in iOS that are properly coded for multitasking, or something as simple as changing the app settings, are a VERY small percentage of the sum of all apps in the app store. Nothing irritates me more than having to click home to leave the app I'm in, to change a setting in an app.

    I know they aren't hard up for market share, but keeping relevant to this whole thread, there is a huge opening for enterprise tablets that simply do more. My wife's school is example #1. Every teacher wants an iPad for themselves & their students, but it isn't cutting it & would be a wasted investment at this point. For that very reason, they are requesting she create proposals for a number of other devices. (do it right HP!)

    I guess we'll agree to disagree on the speed part. Apps are quick & lag free on our iPad for sure, but there's no way 'app switching' is faster. I've yet to find someone who can accomplish as many shared tasks on an iPhone vs. a Pre. Single app speed, sure. And I'm not saying there isn't someone out there that can beat it, I just haven't seen it (anecdotal).
    In the phone and tablet world, there is very little reason to have "full" multitasking. There simply isn't enough screen real-estate to do it in. It's not like you can have a web browser open while you watch a movie on another part of the screen. The closest thing in that regard is probably the awesome notifications system in webOS. Other than that, the operator of the phone is ALWAYS single tasking. The only thing the OS is doing is managing executing applications in the background and giving you a way to switch between them. Those apps running in the background are either changing their state somehow, or maintaining the state they were in when you last used them. Most apps on all platforms do the later regardless of whether they CAN do anything else or not.

    So what's irritating in iOS isn't the multitasking implementation, it's the user interface to the multitasking implementation. iOS supports multitasking for all practical purposes. It isn't ideal, but given the same user interface as WebOS, it would be pretty much transparent to the end user what's actually going on behind the scenes. iOS does this in a manner which isn't as "open" as WebOS, but it has the benefit of being much more efficient, which is a boon to a resource-constrained environment (in the case, the battery as a resource). I'm sure that's one of the reasons my iPhone gets MUCH better battery life than my Pre- or my frankenpre+ ever did.

    I REALLY miss the webos user interface, but I don't find the actual multitasking on the iPhone limiting in any way, really, nor do I imagine the vast vast majority of iOS users.

    As for running 38 apps at once, I sincerely doubt there are many people that keep more than one or two apps open at once on their webOS devices, or any device for that matter. I rarely kept any (mainly because of the aforementioned battery life). And with 38 apps running, if more than one or two are actually doing anything, you'll be measuring your battery life in minutes, not hours.

    As for congruent settings, it is indeed quite irritating. That being said, it's hardly a deal breaker. Apps that have oft-changed settings seem to generally have them in-app.


    Quote Originally Posted by steffej3 View Post
    If, in a perfect world both devices had the same app support, I don't think there would be a single reason to support iOS. So my choice is to support the platform I feel deserves my support. Maybe this is a stretch, but in the stock market they say sell, you buy. Buy, you sell. That's how I now feel about iOS/webOS.
    We don't live in that world. In a perfect world where all devices have the same app support people would be running BeOS or some other architecturally superior OS to Windows 7 or OS X. The reality is what it is, though. If you want to have the best selection of software, even if the OS isn't the best, you're going to buy an iOS device. And it sure doesn't hurt that they have arguably the most solid hardware out there to boot. If you're looking for a tablet today, your choices are a Xoom/Galaxy and all 16 of their apps, or an iPad and it's umpteen thousand. The iPad is just as cheap, if not more so, and every bit as sound hardware-wise as those tablets.

    As it stands today, the only reason to not buy an iPad is either philosophical or a matter of unique practicality at this point (need a bigger screen for an android-only app, or are a developer or something). That may change in time - it almost certainly will - but the reality of today is that the iPad, and the iOS ecosystem rule the tablet market, and sit pretty darn high on the entire mobile marketplace.

    The touchpad has a prayer, but it's going to take a full court press from HP, and something unique that is compelling and unavailable elsewhere to make it happen. I wish them luck, but I'm really not holding out a ton of hope. Apple competing on quality/cachet in lieu of price is formidable. When they have the ability and desire (as they appear to have with the iPad) to compete on price as well, I don't know that they can be beat.

    And this is coming from a LONG time Palm fan/lover. I've owned nothing but palm phones (or phones running Palm/WebOS) since I've been a mobile phone user (Kyocera 6035 -> 7135 -> Treo 650 -> Treo 755 -> Pre - -> Pre+).
  10. #70  
    Fair enough, Gompers. I agree with most. But there is in fact plenty of real estate for a notes software & book page to run side by side (as my wife expects in the classroom). This would even apply to a textbook specific test being displayed side by side with a grade book app. Switching between the two is just not an option.

    Additionally, if I have things to email or work on, I don't want to minimize & kill an app like the NCAA app mentioned here. Why should my device/productiveness stop for that? Then you're talking a re-buffering game, additional steps, etc. etc. Leave the battery to me. Heck, Apple would make a lot of people happy if they just allowed the user to swap batteries. That would just be too generous though.

    As for the 38 apps, I don't expect everyone to read way back, but that was an example. It actually was a spur of the moment attempt to kill my battery so I could run battery doctor. Problem is, those minutes to kill that you were talking about...well, it didn't happen that way. It took forever (in relative terms for how much was open)...over 3 hours with that much stuff open. I certainly wouldn't run 38 apps for any other reason, but it's also not unreasonable for me to daily have about 10 things open while my phone is on the touchstone @ my office.

    Anyway, appreciate the conversation. I've got to quit posting...it's like a disease.
  11. #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by steffej3 View Post
    Fair enough, Gompers. I agree with most. But there is in fact plenty of real estate for a notes software & book page to run side by side (as my wife expects in the classroom). This would even apply to a textbook specific test being displayed side by side with a grade book app. Switching between the two is just not an option.
    Well no one can do this yet. Even two side by side windows on my desktop are barely serviceable. So while it might be a fair criticism, until someone is doing it, its not a mark against anyone not doing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by steffej3 View Post
    Heck, Apple would make a lot of people happy if they just allowed the user to swap batteries. That would just be too generous though.
    Not for those who don't want anything bulkier, less efficient, and more prone to damage from swapping in and out.

    What I prefer, is what Apple's done: make a good battery in the first place!
  12. #72  
    You know the real reason for non-removable batteries, so we can buy new gadgets. Everyone has started this, except with phones. That remains Apple's territory. How many people really pay to get a new battery installed, unless it's those who bought used perhaps? By the time the rechargeable battery dies(18 months to 2 years), new and better stuff is available.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  13. Gompers's Avatar
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    #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by steffej3 View Post
    Fair enough, Gompers. I agree with most. But there is in fact plenty of real estate for a notes software & book page to run side by side (as my wife expects in the classroom). This would even apply to a textbook specific test being displayed side by side with a grade book app. Switching between the two is just not an option.

    Additionally, if I have things to email or work on, I don't want to minimize & kill an app like the NCAA app mentioned here. Why should my device/productiveness stop for that? Then you're talking a re-buffering game, additional steps, etc. etc. Leave the battery to me. Heck, Apple would make a lot of people happy if they just allowed the user to swap batteries. That would just be too generous though.

    As for the 38 apps, I don't expect everyone to read way back, but that was an example. It actually was a spur of the moment attempt to kill my battery so I could run battery doctor. Problem is, those minutes to kill that you were talking about...well, it didn't happen that way. It took forever (in relative terms for how much was open)...over 3 hours with that much stuff open. I certainly wouldn't run 38 apps for any other reason, but it's also not unreasonable for me to daily have about 10 things open while my phone is on the touchstone @ my office.

    Anyway, appreciate the conversation. I've got to quit posting...it's like a disease.
    I don't know of anything anywhere, WebOS included, that has such an interface, short of a laptop (which you could pair up with air display and get something similar with an iPad I suppose, but that's a different situation). I'd argue that you're going to have a pretty limited market for people who want to read one thing and write another unrelated thing actively side-by-side on a 10" screen, but that's an aside.

    The NCAA app, I believe, would play audio-only in the background. It does not continue to play video, but then again, neither does WebOS' native Youtube app. It's not that it couldn't, it's just that it wasn't designed to. That's back on the developer for determining the use-case for the user. In practice, what applications can do in the background is really not practically limited by the multitasking in iOS, Android or WebOS. It's what the developers decide to make of them.

    I'm not saying it's a hit against the OS. I'm just saying when you're actively using the GPS, 3g (or worse yet, 1x) modem, screen, speaker, bluetooth, etc, that battery wears down FAST. It does on the iPhone too. There just aren't many use cases for having 38 apps open at once.

    The power of the device isn't in the OS, it's in the entire package. WebOS on it's own doesn't really do much that PalmOS didn't. In fact, as many have pointed out, it does somewhat less.

    The power of a Pre 3 or a touchpad is going to be what developers do with it. Unless it's a vastly superior PDA (which it won't be), or specced vastly superiorly to other tables (which it won't be) it's just simply not going to be that much more useful, if at all, than any other tablet. Bounce that up against the actual utility gap that comes from having such a small app presence, and you've got a pretty big job ahead of you.

    Also very much appreciate the great dialog! I am _NOT_ an Apple ******, but I also appreciate very much a well made product, and the iPad 2 is a very well-made product. There haven't been many gadgets in my life that I've wanted to play with as much as it!
  14. #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by Gompers View Post
    ...As it stands today, the only reason to not buy an iPad is either philosophical or a matter of unique practicality at this point (need a bigger screen for an android-only app, or are a developer or something)...
    Have you seen the HP TouchPad vs. iPad 2, Xoom, PlayBook, Galaxy 10, Acer, Asus comparison chart?

    The Asus Transformer is basically a netbook that's touchscreen detaches to be used as a tablet. You get the best of both worlds. Compared to the iPad 2, the Asus Transformer specs are:
    • $399 for 16GB vs. $499 for the iPad 2
    • Rear Camera: 5 MP vs. 1 MP
    • Front Camera: 1.2 MP vs. 0.3 MP
    • RAM 1024 MB vs. 512 MB
    • Included keyboard turns it into a netbook vs. $69 Apple keyboard dock
    • microSD: add a Amazon: microSD 16 GB ~$30 or 32 GB ~$75 vs. none
    • Stereo speakers included. $49 Apple stereo speakers
    • micro HDMI included vs. $39 Apple HDMI Adapter

    Say you want a 64 GB netbook that can double as your tablet.

    For Asus, that is the 32GB Transform ($499) plus a 32 GB ~$75 microSD= $574.

    For Apple, that is a $999 MacBook Air and a $699 iPad 2 = $1698.

    An Apple user may not care what it costs. Others might prefer to pay $574.

    By the way, many of us have already owned Asus devices. Asus one of the makers of Treo's.
  15. #75  
    How is buying two different products (a Macbook Air and an iPad) equated to a "64 GB netbook that can double as your tablet." ??

    Sounds like Asus has a netbook that doubles as a tablet. (Yay Asus.....)

    And Mac has a netbook. And a tablet.

    Where are going with this? That two products cost more than one?
  16. #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by finngirl View Post
    ...Where are going with this? That two products cost more than one?
    Your choice. Compare the Asus Transformer to the $1000 AirBook or the $700 iPad 2. The Asus is both.

    Where I am going was replying to the quote:

    Quote Originally Posted by Gompers View Post
    ...As it stands today, the only reason to not buy an iPad is either philosophical or a matter of unique practicality...
    Why would you want a $1000 netbook and $700 tablet when you can have one $574 device that can do both?

    Plus the Asus has 5 times the rear camera, 4 times the front camera, twice the RAM, full 1080p HD out, HDMI built in, 16 hours of video playback time, and full on SRS Sound without carrying around battery powered speakers.

    Is it is now exactly reversed:

    "...As it stands today, the only reason TO buy an iPad is either philosophical or a matter of unique practicality..."

    At this point Apple can only hope that Apple users do not find out about the new tablet options. But Apple knows that many would not consider any other brand so it is not a big worry.
  17. #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by milominderbinder View Post
    Your choice. Compare the Asus Transformer to the $1000 AirBook or the $700 iPad 2. The Asus is both.

    Where I am going was replying to the quote:



    Why would you want a $1000 netbook and $700 tablet when you can have one $574 device that can do both?

    Plus the Asus has 5 times the rear camera, 4 times the front camera, twice the RAM, full 1080p HD out, HDMI built in, 16 hours of video playback time, and full on SRS Sound without carrying around battery powered speakers.

    Is it is now exactly reversed:

    "...As it stands today, the only reason TO buy an iPad is either philosophical or a matter of unique practicality..."

    At this point Apple can only hope that Apple users do not find out about the new tablet options. But Apple knows that many would not consider any other brand so it is not a big worry.
    None of that matters if it doesn't deliver a solid user experience particularly on the software front.
  18. #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by barkerja View Post
    None of that matters if it doesn't deliver a solid user experience – particularly on the software front.
    Actually it does. At least to me.

    I’d gladly give up a little software polish for a netbook that gets 16 hours of battery life plus the ability to pull the screen off and use as a tablet.

    Say what you want about android, ASUS, whatever. That transformer is a much more appealing option to me than the touchpad or the ipad.

    In any case, my biggest gripe with the touchpad and ipad is the 4x3 aspect ratio display. Personally, I prefer the 16x10 ratio of the androids. Personal preference of course, but when using the things, it is something I found pretty quickly. I'd encourage everyone to make their buying decisions based on similar, real world evaluations of the options. Instead of just blind dogma.

    -Suntan
  19. #79  
    glad there's choice. so go for it.
  20. #80  
    The more I read about the Transform the more I think that there is just no way that the keyboard is included.

    At $399 PLUS the keyboard it is a bargain. Provided of course they do not pull a Motorola and price the keyboard at $500 like the Atrix.

    Even thought the website says that the keyboard is included, I just can't imagine how that is possible for $399.
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