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  1. #61  
    You know if ipad and apple didn't tie down their stuff with itunes and stuff like that . I might like them . But when I bought an ipod not to long ago and tries to start it . It would not let me even turn it on without having itunes on my computer . That's a fail ! Imho .

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  2. #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadavis08 View Post
    You know if ipad and apple didn't tie down their stuff with itunes and stuff like that . I might like them . But when I bought an ipod not to long ago and tries to start it . It would not let me even turn it on without having itunes on my computer . That's a fail ! Imho .

    -- Sent from my Palm Pre using Forums
    I would say that's by design.

    A customer is forced to have itunes on their computer. Works for apple.

    They're forced to sync at least once. Works for the mainstream customer who needs their hand held. A backup is created and they at least are walked through a bit.

    The alternative is something like Palm had (and might still..). I lost count of how many on here left the carrier with palm profile as default. Then they lost their contacts. Or they couldn't sync what they had with a cloud source. Then they didn't have backups. When Palm had problems with the cloud storage, many more lost contacts. It created an ugly experience.

    If you're really experienced with smartphones, then this isn't much of a problem though its still nice to manage your phone via a desktop app. But if your goal is to target the masses...
  3. #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by pastorrich1 View Post
    First I said I didn't see any sluggishness. I didn't see anything alarming in either video and even the article said that not everyone agrees there was sluggishness.

    But really the article that I posted is why the Author feels the TP is better than the iPad. He didn't say that in it's current state of development it out performs. He said the specs and features are better and naturally anyone expects better performance as a result.

    But all that is far removed from your claims of it being Pre-alpha hardware and only capable of simulated flash. Both of those assertions are baseless and incorrect.

    I made clear that the hardware is finished but the software is still being developed. But the features demo'd are real and operational, not perfect and smooth as silk in their current state. Although I expect it to be when it launches. If it isn't then you can have your criticism.


    -- Sent from my Palm Pre using Forums
    Sounds like you're contradicting yourself. You don't see sluggishness but yet acknowledge the software isn't "smooth as silk" in its current state.

    This whole thread kind of went out of whack when the writer of the article you posted came in here and basically said even the ipad 2 spec's don't matter..the TP runs webOS and that combined with Flash will rule the day over the ipad (or ipad 2). Even though he made specs an issue in his top 10 list. This bombshell by him threw away any credibility he might have had. It also didn't help that he said this "I saw no harm in giving webOS a bit of much needed publicity and morale boosting at the expense of the already accomplished iPad"

    What if i did a comparison but at the end just simply said "bottom line, you can ignore the above, the ipad will always be the better device all around because of apple's app store & ecosystem "
    Last edited by cardfan; 02/15/2011 at 08:23 AM.
  4. #64  
    <<Thread moved>>
    Palm III-->Handspring Visor-->Sony Clie PEG-NR70-->no PDA -->Palm Treo 755p-->Palm Pre-->HP Veer
  5. #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by olidie View Post
    Regarding just type:

    "If this were a feature in the iPad, it would be hailed the second coming. With webOS, innovation is not a feature, it
    I like the Just Type feature a lot. In one of the hands-on videos I watched, one of the journalists specifically asked to see it in action. The demonstrator tersely said they are not showing that today. The Beats Audio and Video Chat were also not present. I don't know if the audio was hardware or software related. I believe someone said the video call partnership hasn't been nailed down.

    My critique is not that the feature list is bad. I love the features. They are just not ready for primetime right now. Anyone who religiously follows my posts, (and everyone should), knows that the two things I want out of the iPad 2 are more ram and better speakers. I also liked the gestures they showed off in the 4.3 beta. We can be pretty confident that the two-camera FaceTime system will be there as well. Both platforms have advantages and disadvantages. But I certainly wouldn't mind if Apple "invented" Just Type.
  6.    #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardfan View Post
    Sounds like you're contradicting yourself. You don't see sluggishness but yet acknowledge the software isn't "smooth as silk" in its current state.

    This whole thread kind of went out of whack when the writer of the article you posted came in here and basically said even the ipad 2 spec's don't matter..the TP runs webOS and that combined with Flash will rule the day over the ipad (or ipad 2). Even though he made specs an issue in his top 10 list. This bombshell by him threw away any credibility he might have had.
    No contradiction... I didn't see any sluggishness personally. But I am both realistic and intellectually honest, not to mention I am a developer and understand the realities of software development. So I realize the possibility and even likelihood that there could have been some not only in what they demo'd but in things they didn't as well. My experience doesn't have to be the same as others. But I think that is a given, it has been stated many times.

    now I will shout...

    OF COURSE THE IPAD2 SPECS DON'T MATTER, WE DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT THEY ARE AND THAT ISN'T WHAT HIS &*#$@%! ARTICLE WAS ABOUT.

    shouting stops now...

    He... like you is entitled to his opinion in his article. He obviously feels webOS combined with it's features and put on what seems to be great hardware sets it above the leading competitor (iPad) on the market today. That is what everyone does. All of the tablets that are coming out have tried to compare themselves against the iPad. When Apple announces the iPad 2 and it's specs and features, please write an article comparing it to the TouchPad specs and features and why you or anyone else thinks it is better.

    When dealing with logic there are valid arguments and invalid arguments. Three of you, (Mikah, Dand, and Cardfan) have all presented and roosted on this invalid logical statement that somehow even though the TouchPad published specs are higher/better than the iPad specs that the author having a preference for webOS somehow negates those facts.

    A=author preference B=TP specs and C=iPad specs

    it works like this...

    B is greater/better than C (simple comparison of the specs)

    But you say this

    If A exists then B is NOT greater/better than C

    The problem is that B's relationship to C are not dependent on A in any way. Trying to create a dependency on A is not a logical argument.
    Clicking the Thanks button is a great way to say... well THANKS
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  7. #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardfan View Post

    This whole thread kind of went out of whack when the writer of the article you posted came in here and basically said even the ipad 2 spec's don't matter..the TP runs webOS and that combined with Flash will rule the day over the ipad (or ipad 2).
    For me too. It went from being a point of interesting journalism, to a fan piece. No problem with that-- all products have fans, and fans are not limited in what they can write about anywhere.

    But at that point it ceased being an interesting article, and just became another opinion, written by a fan.
  8.    #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    I like the Just Type feature a lot.

    My critique is not that the feature list is bad. I love the features. They are just not ready for primetime right now.
    Just type in some form has been implemented in every version of webOS since it's launch in 09. So implementing it in webOS 3 is not a stretch. Now making it work efficiently using a VKB as opposed to the hardware versions will require some thought, especially without a gesture area to easily bring up the VKB. It isn't a benefit if it is clunky to pull up. But Just Type has been prime time in webOS from the beginning, the implementation on the Tab is still being worked out.

    Also, Enyo is a new framework that makes apps modular, smaller, lighter and faster, but it doesn't change the UI in anyway that makes the webOS experience on a tab fundamentally different. So HP isn't dealing with a brand new beast. Bits of the same code are still being used all over the place, they are just broken into different modular pieces.
    Clicking the Thanks button is a great way to say... well THANKS
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  9. #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by pastorrich1 View Post
    now I will shout...

    OF COURSE THE IPAD2 SPECS DON'T MATTER, WE DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT THEY ARE AND THAT ISN'T WHAT HIS &*#$@%! ARTICLE WAS ABOUT.

    shouting stops now...

    He... like you is entitled to his opinion in his article. He obviously feels webOS combined with it's features and put on what seems to be great hardware sets it above the leading competitor (iPad) on the market today. That is what everyone does. All of the tablets that are coming out have tried to compare themselves against the iPad. When Apple announces the iPad 2 and it's specs and features, please write an article comparing it to the TouchPad specs and features and why you or anyone else thinks it is better.
    Only problem is he, then, contradicted himself and said that REGARDLESS of its features - not "combined with its features and hardware", but REGARDLESS of features - the TouchPad would be superior simply virtue of having WebOS and Flash.

    That's not what the article says. if it was, then this thread would be, maybe, a third the length it is now. Because as wacky as I find that reasoning (software doesn't run in a vacuum), it is at least honest.

    When dealing with logic there are valid arguments and invalid arguments. Three of you, (Mikah, Dand, and Cardfan) have all presented and roosted on this invalid logical statement that somehow even though the TouchPad published specs are higher/better than the iPad specs that the author having a preference for webOS somehow negates those facts.

    A=author preference B=TP specs and C=iPad specs

    it works like this...

    B is greater/better than C (simple comparison of the specs)

    But you say this

    If A exists then B is NOT greater/better than C

    The problem is that B's relationship to C are not dependent on A in any way. Trying to create a dependency on A is not a logical argument.
    Actually, the problem is...that's not what he said. He said the following:

    "I just felt that even if the iPad 2 features comparable or even better specs...the TouchPad would still be a better device all round because of webOS and Flash support."

    Thus, it is he, the original author, who is negating the relevance of specs in one place, while stressing them in his original article.

    They either matter or they don't. Which is it? That's the problem.
  10. #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by pastorrich1 View Post
    Just type in some form has been implemented in every version of webOS since it's launch in 09. So implementing it in webOS 3 is not a stretch. Now making it work efficiently using a VKB as opposed to the hardware versions will require some thought, especially without a gesture area to easily bring up the VKB. It isn't a benefit if it is clunky to pull up. But Just Type has been prime time in webOS from the beginning, the implementation on the Tab is still being worked out.
    Isn't that the exact same thing Dandbj13 is saying? It's not ready for primetime. There are lots of issues on the Touchpad still being worked out. It's not in near final shape yet, so let's allow it to get there and then evaluate the device - not how great the last implementation of WebOS was as of 1.4.5 or 2.0.

    Also, Enyo is a new framework that makes apps modular, smaller, lighter and faster, but it doesn't change the UI in anyway that makes the webOS experience on a tab fundamentally different. So HP isn't dealing with a brand new beast. Bits of the same code are still being used all over the place, they are just broken into different modular pieces.
    You don't think changing the notifications, advanced gestures, gesture area, app framework to the point where developers have to UNLEARN Mojo, and several core native apps altogether is making "the WebOS experience on a tab fundamentally different"?
  11. #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by pastorrich1 View Post
    He... like you is entitled to his opinion in his article. He obviously feels webOS combined with it's features and put on what seems to be great hardware sets it above the leading competitor (iPad) on the market today. That is what everyone does.
    The other me would have a stinging response. The kinder, gentler me will show restraint.

    When the iPhone 4 came out, some people were comparing it to the venerable Pre. There was a great outcry of how unfair that comparison was. The iPhone was new, the Pre was a year to eighteen months, depending on how you counted. I argued that the comparison was fair because they both represented the current, shipping, flagship devices from both companies.

    I would feel the same way about the TP/iP comparison if it was the same situation. The difference is the TP is not in shipping condition. It is not a real product, yet. It is unfinished. We are comparing that which is not ready to something on the market. If the TP were out right now, I would have no issue with the comparison.

    As it stands, it will be like comparing the iPad 2, (assuming it is released before the TP), to the Slate 500: HP's current tablet. I'm not a fan of comparing shipping items to non-shipping items. Everyone of us could name ten products that changed the world before they were shipped, but fell flat after.

    For the record, I hope the TP is great. After all this time, nothing has entered the arena with the iPad, not really. I expected price pressure for the second generation iPad. It seems competitive prices are even higher. I expected someone to introduce features that would make Apple take notice. So far, they just seem to be iPads with improved internals. I hoped for a lot in this market that just hasn't materialized. HP was the last major chance for a competitive push. After the big announcement, the press wasn't even allowed to handle it. I come by my disappointment honestly.
  12.    #72  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    Only problem is he, then, contradicted himself and said that REGARDLESS of its features - not "combined with its features and hardware", but REGARDLESS of features - the TouchPad would be superior simply virtue of having WebOS and Flash.

    That's not what the article says. if it was, then this thread would be, maybe, a third the length it is now. Because as wacky as I find that reasoning (software doesn't run in a vacuum), it is at least honest.



    Actually, the problem is...that's not what he said. He said the following:

    "I just felt that even if the iPad 2 features comparable or even better specs...the TouchPad would still be a better device all round because of webOS and Flash support."

    Thus, it is he, the original author, who is negating the relevance of specs in one place, while stressing them in his original article.

    They either matter or they don't. Which is it? That's the problem.
    Yeah... iPad2 specs don't matter because they aren't known and his article isn't about them.
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  13. #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by pastorrich1 View Post
    Yeah... iPad2 specs don't matter because they aren't known and his article isn't about them.
    No specs on any device matter because his article is merely a smokescreen to say that WebOS is superior in any form to any other equivalent device. How do I know that? Because the author said so himself.
  14.    #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    Isn't that the exact same thing Dandbj13 is saying? It's not ready for primetime. There are lots of issues on the Touchpad still being worked out. It's not in near final shape yet, so let's allow it to get there and then evaluate the device - not how great the last implementation of WebOS was as of 1.4.5 or 2.0.



    You don't think changing the notifications, advanced gestures, gesture area, app framework to the point where developers have to UNLEARN Mojo, and several core native apps altogether is making "the WebOS experience on a tab fundamentally different"?
    No, two days ago he was saying the TP is Pre Alpha hardware, that was patently false. Nobody has said the TP is a releasable product yet and have made clear the software is still being tweaked. That however doesn't make features that have been proven to be effective and efficient, now ineffective and inefficient on the TP when it is released.

    And no, I don't think changing those things makes the webOS experience for the user fundamentally different. It will all be very familiar to webOS users, just improved. In fact many of the new features are things avid users have been requesting and imagining for a long time. Just peruse the patch request threads and app request threads. It does however make it different for developers making apps, but little change for the users.
    Clicking the Thanks button is a great way to say... well THANKS
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  15. #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by pastorrich1 View Post
    No, two days ago he was saying the TP is Pre Alpha hardware, that was patently false. Nobody has said the TP is a releasable product yet and have made clear the software is still being tweaked. That however doesn't make features that have been proven to be effective and efficient, now ineffective and inefficient on the TP when it is released.
    Very little has been "proven" independently about the TouchPad, apart from its existence. Again, I remind everyone of how smooth WebOS seemed in its alpha/beta form in January 2009 in those choreographed demos where no one was allowed to touch the device for long. And that isn't a knock on HP or Palm...almost all pre-release hardware is similarly "chaperoned". A rare and welcome exception was Windows Phone 7, but that paid off for Microsoft because they are well over 8,000 apps and growing while WebOS is rebooting itself with Enyo.

    And no, I don't think changing those things makes the webOS experience for the user fundamentally different. It will all be very familiar to webOS users, just improved. In fact many of the new features are things avid users have been requesting and imagining for a long time. Just peruse the patch request threads and app request threads. It does however make it different for developers making apps, but little change for the users.
    I don't ever recall seeing a patch request for adding a button back to the hardware or making the notifications a drop-down from the top or forcing all applications to be rewritten in a fashion so new, HP urges developers to FORGET what they have learned thus far. These are "fundamental" differences, whether you consider them improvements or not.

    What's interesting is that the UI is very different between the new phones and the new Touchpad. I'm curious as to how those two experiences will sit with each other if you own both products. I, myself, would only buy either the TouchPad or the Pre 3.
  16. #76  
    Holy Smokes guys.

    How about you all do what I do, take internet blogs with a grain of salt and then determine for yourself what better suits your needs at the time you actually go to purchase a product.

    Whats the deal with getting so riled up over an internet column? Light day at work for everyone?

    -Suntan
  17. #77  
    You'd think apple's stance on jailbreaking vs HP's openness would make the top 10.

    How about Apple demanding that apps with subscriptions must include a mandatory in-app method of subscribing through the apple app store that can't be more expensive? And that 30% of that goes to apple?

    We all know the customer will almost always choose to use Apple's in-app method since it'd be so convenient and the same price.

    Hopefully HP is already courting the devs affected...
  18. #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by pastorrich1 View Post
    Its simple, just look at each of these guys posts for the last week and decide for yourselves why they are here and what they are doing.

    Its the same in every thread they post in.

    Our mods should do something about it.

    -- Sent from my Palm Pre using Forums
    Would you rather have honest feedback or mindless cheering? I think "these guys" have all stated they want to see HP succeed with webOS.
  19.    #79  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardfan View Post
    Would you rather have honest feedback or mindless cheering? I think "these guys" have all stated they want to see HP succeed with webOS.
    Your (plural) posts all speak for themselves. Any objective observer will see it.

    -- Sent from my Palm Pre using Forums
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  20. #80  
    Quote Originally Posted by pastorrich1 View Post
    Yeah... iPad2 specs don't matter because they aren't known and his article isn't about them.
    Instead he is comparing the TP to a device that won't even be for sale when the TP ships.
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