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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Sorry guy, you've never seen me on an Apple forum, and I challenge you to show one place where I've posted "misinformation" about Apple. When I do post about Apple, it's in response to to someone else, typically telling us how crappy HP stuff is, and how they shouldn't even try.
    I think I said this forum, NOT an Apple forum.

    Here is just one of many examples of misinformation from you about Apple...

    Apple's laser printers were more expensive (slightly) than comparable HPs, but one can't say that HP was undercutting Apple, since they were selling theirs first. Apple just tried to go head to head, and failed. I don't base that on numbers, but on the simple fact that one company is selling laser printers, and the other is not.
    And this was my response...

    Apple was not competing with HP in selling their printers to the same market as HP. Apple sold their printers for people that wanted an APPLE printer to go with their APPLE Macintosh. Apple was not selling their printers expecting people that bought a cheap PC to go out and buy an expensive Apple printer.

    Just like today, Apple doesn't expect someone that bought a cheap HP desktop PC to go out and buy the expensive $1000 Cinema Display.

    When Steve Jobs came back to Apple in 1997. He got rid of a lot of stuff that Apple didn't need to focus on to get back to their core competencies, getting rid of printers was one of them. Not, because HP sold more printers than Apple.
    I added the bold to point out the real reason why Apple got out of the printer market. It wasn't because of HP. So, it seems to me that you posted misinformation.
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by SoFly View Post
    I think I said this forum, NOT an Apple forum.

    Here is just one of many examples of misinformation from you about Apple...



    And this was my response...



    I added the bold to point out the real reason why Apple got out of the printer market. It wasn't because of HP. So, it seems to me that you posted misinformation.
    I understand exactly what you wrote, but didn't choose to pursue it.
    I understand that Apple was selling to Mac owners - so was HP. That's why they licensed Postscript, so Apple user could use the printer. The rest of the information is laughable. Not only were many IBM compatibles (for the most part) more expensive than Macs at the time, but Jobs returned to Apple in 1996, the last LaserWriter was introduced in 1997, after he returned, and was discontinued in 1999, over 2 years after he returned.

    As far as the reason why - why would they concentrate on their "core competencies" if the the "non-core competencies" (or would it be "core incompetencies - you choose) were making money. They seem to be doing pretty well with things that aren't "core compentencies" these days (phones, music, that sort of thing). The answer is simple - they weren't making money any more. Too little control, too many competing printers sitting next to Mac devices.

    No, my information wasn't "misinformation". Apple fans not linking the information doesn't make it false.
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Not only were many IBM compatibles (for the most part) more expensive than Macs at the time, but Jobs returned to Apple in 1996, the last LaserWriter was introduced in 1997, after he returned, and was discontinued in 1999, over 2 years after he returned.
    Wrong. The LaserWriter was introduced in 1985. You are 12 years off. See, another example of misinformation.

    LaserWriter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    As far as the reason why - why would they concentrate on their "core competencies" if the the "non-core competencies" (or would it be "core incompetencies - you choose) were making money. They seem to be doing pretty well with things that aren't "core compentencies" these days (phones, music, that sort of thing). The answer is simple - they weren't making money any more. Too little control, too many competing printers sitting next to Mac devices.
    Is 1997 today? Apple is way more successful today than they were in 1997. So, they can afford to take the risks to move into new markets.

    My point is you said that Apple stopped making printers explicitly because HP outsold them. If it's true then show me the proof. Apple's history is all over the net. So, please show me and I will APOLOGIZE and shut up. You must have gotten the information from somewhere, or you just made it up.

    You're not going to find the info because you are making assumptions.
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by SoFly View Post
    Wrong. The LaserWriter was introduced in 1985. You are 12 years off. See, another example of misinformation.
    ...
    Sorry, I left off the model - 8500. It wasn't "misinformation", it was a typo. I know when the first LaserWriter was introduced, I sold them.

    Edit I went back and re-read what I wrote. No typo, I just didn't include the model number. Go read it again:

    the last LaserWriter was introduced in 1997

    As I said, no misinformation, just a rabid fan trying to find something to sink his teeth into. You missed pup.

    BTW, I didn't "get that information from somwhere", I was in the business at the time. I was watching it all happen. No "making things up", but sure, I'll find some validating information for you; however, that's going to be that person's opinion too. No mfg says "we quit making that because we failed where the competition succeeded".
  5. #25  
    The answer is simple - they weren't making money any more. Too little control, too many competing printers sitting next to Mac devices.
    There are also a TON of competing monitors today against Apple's one, lonely LCD display, but they still sell it. I'm sure HP sells more monitors in a month than Apple sells in a year. So, why hasn't Apple stop selling LCD displays? According to you, that's what happened with printers. Come on answer that one.

    LIke, I said back in 1997, Apple needed to focus on their core products which were not printers.
  6. #26  
    I just decided to use your own link - Wikipedia. Here you go:

    To compete, many other laser printer manufacturers licensed Adobe PostScript for inclusion into their own models. Eventually the standardization on Ethernet for connectivity and the ubiquity of PostScript undermined the unique position of Apple’s printers: Macintosh computers functioned equally well with any Postscript printer. After the LaserWriter 8500, Apple discontinued the LaserWriter product line.
    Since HP was the major laser printer at the time, I don't think it's an unfair assumption to state that HP had a lot to do with the "undermining of the unique position of Apple's printers".
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by SoFly View Post
    There are also a TON of competing monitors today against Apple's one, lonely LCD display, but they still sell it. I'm sure HP sells more monitors in a month than Apple sells in a year. So, why hasn't Apple stop selling LCD displays? According to you, that's what happened with printers. Come on answer that one.

    LIke, I said back in 1997, Apple needed to focus on their core products which were not printers.
    Monitors are a core product? Seriously??

    I never said that Apple would stop making anything that their competitors make, where did you get that from? However, I stand by what I said about the printers. There are others that hold the same view. We may be wrong, shoot, Jobs may have felt that Buddah spoke to him in a dream and told him to abandon the line, here's a couple of facts.

    HP and Apple were competing on the product.
    HP still sells Laser pritners. Apple doesn't.
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Monitors are a core product? Seriously??

    I never said that Apple would stop making anything that their competitors make, where did you get that from? However, I stand by what I said about the printers. There are others that hold the same view. We may be wrong, shoot, Jobs may have felt that Buddah spoke to him in a dream and told him to abandon the line, here's a couple of facts.

    HP and Apple were competing on the product.
    HP still sells Laser pritners. Apple doesn't.
    Did you not say that Apple stopped making printers because of HP?

    You're missing the point. Apple stopped making printers and you AUTOMATICALLY assumed it was because HP. Unless you have proof, you are making an ASSUMPTION.

    Back in 2009 Palm assumed that the Palm Pre was going to be a roaring success, but it didn't turn out that way. That's why you should never assume anything.
  9. #29  
    Oh, I found an interesting article.

    Why Apple will never make printers again | Printers | Macworld

    I learned something new.

    Frankly, there’s no money in printers, only in printer supplies—and you can only get that revenue if you make the printing engine. Apple never did.
    Apple never made a printer engine. NEVER made one. So, it's not because of HP, but because they were not making the insane profits off the consumables.

    Remember what I said about making assumptions? Mr. Misinformation.
  10. #30  
    Even if you want to ignore those problems, you’d still face the dozens of extra parts Apple would have to add, stock, and track for supplying and servicing any printers it made. Apple’s retail stores would need additional repair space and staffing. And printers introduce a large class of technical support problems that Apple currently avoids. And after all that, unless Apple made the print engine, it wouldn’t make the ink, and that’s where all the money is.
    Please soak up the knowledge. It totally says nothing about losing against HP. Which was all I was trying to say.
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by SoFly View Post
    Oh, I found an interesting article.

    Why Apple will never make printers again | Printers | Macworld

    I learned something new.



    Apple never made a printer engine. NEVER made one. So, it's not because of HP, but because they were not making the insane profits off the consumables.

    Remember what I said about making assumptions? Mr. Misinformation.
    This is funny.

    HP made printer engines. They still make printers. Apple didn't make printer engines. They made printers. One company still makes the printers, and makes money off them. The other company doesn't make printers, quit making them when they were doing poorly. You point to information about how it wasn't HP - yet HP was doing the model that made money, and Apple wasn't.

    Yes, there's no money for Apple for printers today. You can't sell printers for $8000 any more, because someone besides Apple figured out how to make money selling them for less.

    Guess which company pioneered selling the engine as a replacement.

    You're getting a little blinded in your enthusiasm.
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by SoFly View Post
    Remember what I said about making assumptions? Mr. Misinformation.
    As for the "Mr Misinformation", go back and reread the post that you got all excited about. There's been no "misinformation" from me, by you chose to ignore was was (correctly) stated about when the Last laserwriter was introduced.

    Rant on if you wish, but you're beginning to look a bit silly.
  13. #33  
    Man, this is getting off to a great start . June can't get here soon enough.
  14. ToddK's Avatar
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    #34  
    I've been around here for a few years now, (new profile when I got my Pre), not as long as hparsons, I checked in a few months before the Treo 650 came out...

    I don't always agree with everything he has said, but I respect his insight and knowledge. ...and he's been here, like, forever.

    So, not for nothing, but - SoFly, you are starting to come across as a bit of a "tool". Just sayin' ;-) I could be mistaken... but, you lost me when you called him "Mr Misinformation". sounded like a 14 year old teasing a peer to me.

    But, I AM enjoying the "back and forth", so please do continue.
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    This is funny.

    HP made printer engines. They still make printers. Apple didn't make printer engines. They made printers. One company still makes the printers, and makes money off them. The other company doesn't make printers, quit making them when they were doing poorly. You point to information about how it wasn't HP - yet HP was doing the model that made money, and Apple wasn't.

    Yes, there's no money for Apple for printers today. You can't sell printers for $8000 any more, because someone besides Apple figured out how to make money selling them for less.

    Guess which company pioneered selling the engine as a replacement.

    You're getting a little blinded in your enthusiasm.
    I saw no proof that Apple got out of printers because of HP. Apple got out because they were not making money off the consumables because they didn't make them. Not because of HP.

    TODAY, Apple is more profitable per dollar of revenue compared to HP and they have a higher market value. So, it looks like HP should take a page from Apple's playbook and get rid of low margin products to try to become more profitable.

    HP makes all these printers and consumables and yet Apple still makes more profit per dollar of revenue. So, looks like Apple made the right decision getting out of the printer market and moving on to bigger and more profitable products.

    Anyways, I'm done. Get in the last word so you can move on to danbj13's post about The Daily. I'm sure that has you all riled up.
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToddK View Post
    I've been around here for a few years now, (new profile when I got my Pre), not as long as hparsons, I checked in a few months before the Treo 650 came out...

    I don't always agree with everything he has said, but I respect his insight and knowledge. ...and he's been here, like, forever.

    So, not for nothing, but - SoFly, you are starting to come across as a bit of a "tool". Just sayin' ;-) I could be mistaken... but, you lost me when you called him "Mr Misinformation". sounded like a 14 year old teasing a peer to me.

    But, I AM enjoying the "back and forth", so please do continue.
    He makes a lot assumptions about things. I chose to use facts about things.

    I'm sure if I said the PalmPad is going to fail because the Palm Pre failed, I got get all kinds of grief. But, I wouldn't say that because I have no facts to back that up and I would just be assuming based up how the Palm Pre performed.

    That's what hparsons does on more than one occasion. I just chose to point it out.
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by SoFly View Post
    He makes a lot assumptions about things. I chose to use facts about things.

    I'm sure if I said the PalmPad is going to fail because the Palm Pre failed, I got get all kinds of grief. But, I wouldn't say that because I have no facts to back that up and I would just be assuming based up how the Palm Pre performed.

    That's what hparsons does on more than one occasion. I just chose to point it out.
    Bull. I haven't said anything Apple is going to do will fail, for any reason. Personally, I think right now Apple could put their logo on a dog bisquit and sell it as a new breakfast cereal, and folks would line up to buy it.

    We agree on one thing - Apple quit selling printers because they weren't making enough money at it.

    I don't know if we agree on this or not, but HP is still sellling printers because they do make money at it.

    You insist Apple's decision has nothing to do with what HP was doing, yet quote an article that states that the business model that HP used to compete with Apple is the very reason Apple doesn't make printers.

    You call that whatever you want, but I was there, saw it happening, saw the model that succeeded, and saw the one that failed.

    I also believe (and yes, this is my personal opinion) that Apple learned a lesson from it. They licensed out Poscript, lost control of the hardware because of it, and put that in their "lesson learned" column.

    I do think it's ironic that when Apple makes a high gross profit, you tout it as a great thing. When HP sells something at a high gross profit, you call it "insane profits off the consumables". Dont' get me wrong, a high profit margin is a good thing. It's an excellent base for business (as long as sales support the profit margin). At the same time, cutting the margin and selling quantity to make up for it is a good plan too (WalMart seems to have succeeded at it). Neither one of them is either bad nor good, as long as they succeed.

    HP's been succeding far longer than Apple, but I'm not going to tell either of them how to run their business.

    BTW, I'm almost positive I remember Steve Jobs (or was it Woz) selling a calculator to help finance the start of Apple.

    Yeah, it was an HP calculator.
  18. ToddK's Avatar
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    #38  
    no I was wrong - annoying tool is a more accurate term.
  19. #39  
    If not for the quotes I wouldn't be able to follow the topic.

    With that said, hparsons has yet to even mention a hint that Apple will fail at something based on previous failed sales performance in other product lines.

    He has said that HP knocked apple out when apple tried controlling the market with printers , because of HP's business model.

    Put whatever spin you want on that. But that doesn't change the Facts about, either, what hparsons said or about the printers failing for apple in part bc of how HP dominated the market .

    -- Sent from my Palm Pre using Forums
  20. cgk
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    #40  
    See this discussion misses a key point, quality of profit, sure apple could have stuck it out in the Printer business but why bother? Instead they have concentrated on more profitable lines and have managed to maintain and even increase margins in areas where HP and other grey box shifters are busy fighting over margins.

    That's what will be interesting to see with the HP tablets - will they retain decent margins or will they be forced into a race to the bottom to compete with Android devices.
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