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  1. #221  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    While I agree with the basic premise here, I would have to say, I expect iPhone sales in the US to be more lopsided (in favor of Apple) than in other countries. Face it, in the US we as consumers are bit more prone to picking technology based on trendy brands rather than functionality.
    I think so, plus the two iPhone carriers have the most customers, by far.

    But Android hasn't been "blown away" anywhere, and I don't expect that to start now. And similarly, there is room for other players including HP. They just have to make the room.
  2. #222  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    I think so, plus the two iPhone carriers have the most customers, by far.

    But Android hasn't been "blown away" anywhere, and I don't expect that to start now. And similarly, there is room for other players including HP. They just have to make the room.
    Thus my assertion that the notion that other phones haven't "made a dent" in Apple's market share is incorrect.
  3. #223  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    HP was a profit-making company before Apple was a gleam in Jobs' and Wozniack's collective eyes.

    Even after their founding, they went through about 10-12 years of some pretty extreme financial difficulty, and almost went bankrupt.

    Add to all of that the fact that their fall coincided, roughly, with the departure of Steve Jobs, and their return to profitability coincided with his return, along with the fact that it appears Jobs may no longer be heading Apple on a day to day basis.

    Finally toss in the fact that HP has consistently been profitable (though they've had divisions that were not) since they were founded, no matter who was heading the company.

    Then yeah, I think it's all relevant.

    BTW, I really don't think HP (or anyone, for that matter) needs to "beat Apple". What they have to do is compete and maintain an acceptable (to them and their shareholders) profitiability.

    Finally, it really dosn't matter if HP outsells Apple because their products are cheaper. Lots of companies have problems when consumers (who are very price conscious) determine one company's products are over priced, and begin buying another instead. That's especially true in difficicult economic times.
    Thanks for the trip down memory lane. But, all that is not relevant for today and it CURRENTLY is not helping HP today competing against Apple in the mobile space (smart phones tablets) and I don't see that changing in the foreseeable future. The Palm Pre failed and the new stuff comes out in the future.
  4. #224  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    I think so, plus the two iPhone carriers have the most customers, by far.

    But Android hasn't been "blown away" anywhere, and I don't expect that to start now. And similarly, there is room for other players including HP. They just have to make the room.
    What is the iOS market share when you include the iPod touch?

    I think it's sloppy reporting when the iPod touch is not included in all these stats. The iPod touch is just like the iPhone without the ability to make a phone call.

    I don't see people separating out the tablets that have 3G from the ones that only have wi-fi.

    So, why is that being done with the iPhone and iPod touch?

    Add the iPhone, iPod touch, and iPad all together and I'm sure Android is not beating iOS as badly as people seem to think.
  5. #225  
    Quote Originally Posted by SoFly View Post
    What is the iOS market share when you include the iPod touch?

    I think it's sloppy reporting when the iPod touch is not included in all these stats. The iPod touch is just like the iPhone without the ability to make a phone call.

    I don't see people separating out the tablets that have 3G from the ones that only have wi-fi.

    So, why is that being done with the iPhone and iPod touch?

    Add the iPhone, iPod touch, and iPad all together and I'm sure Android is not beating iOS as badly as people seem to think.
    Fine. Add in the Android tablets from no-names in China, then the Android integration in Volt and other GM vehicles, Android PMPs, Android e-readers from companies we never heard of, Android phones (as in house desktop phones), and all of the other stuff it's showing up in.

    Android will win the "most populous" award by attrition. It's designed to be flexible enough to stick on anything by anyone. That's what it's supposed to do. I don't consider them "beating" Apple in this fashion an achievement. You shouldn't consider it a point of contention to get your knickers in a twist about.
  6. #226  
    Quote Originally Posted by SoFly View Post
    Thanks for the trip down memory lane. But, all that is not relevant for today and it CURRENTLY is not helping HP today competing against Apple in the mobile space (smart phones tablets) and I don't see that changing in the foreseeable future. The Palm Pre failed and the new stuff comes out in the future.
    Seriously, you don't see Jobs' situation not affecting Apple in the mobile space? I'm not sure if I'm surprised or not. However, there are definitely some areas of concern about that.

    Even at that, seeing the relevancy largely is up to the particular individual - however, your statement that my information was not true was incorrect. I'll repeat it, HP, at one time or another, has beaten Apple in every category; sales, size, market penetration, profitability, etc.

    I'll take it that your contention is that they can't. I disagree.
  7. #227  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    Fine. Add in the Android tablets from no-names in China, then the Android integration in Volt and other GM vehicles, Android PMPs, Android e-readers from companies we never heard of, Android phones (as in house desktop phones), and all of the other stuff it's showing up in.

    Android will win the "most populous" award by attrition. It's designed to be flexible enough to stick on anything by anyone. That's what it's supposed to do. I don't consider them "beating" Apple in this fashion an achievement. You shouldn't consider it a point of contention to get your knickers in a twist about.
    It's already been said that the China no names are using a version of Android that is not the official Google Android and not part of the Goole system. The took Android and modified it for their own use outside of the Google world.

    You're missing the point. The apps from the app store can run on the iPhone, iPod touch, and the iPad. Can you connect a car to the Android market place and download apps to it?

    As far as developers are concerned when it comes to who has the most devices that they can write an app for and it be downloaded, iOS is probably about the same as all those Android devices that developers can write apps for to be downloaded. In that instance, Android is not outrunning iOS as so many seem to believe.
  8. #228  
    Quote Originally Posted by SoFly View Post
    It's already been said that the China no names are using a version of Android that is not the official Google Android and not part of the Goole system. The took Android and modified it for their own use outside of the Google world.

    You're missing the point. The apps from the app store can run on the iPhone, iPod touch, and the iPad. Can you connect a car to the Android market place and download apps to it?

    As far as developers are concerned when it comes to who has the most devices that they can write an app for and it be downloaded, iOS is probably about the same as all those Android devices that developers can write apps for to be downloaded. In that instance, Android is not outrunning iOS as so many seem to believe.
    Some developer surveys of interest indicate otherwise, but I don't care either way. You can pretty much find whatever you want on either platform. There are some unique ones on each (certain games and media apps on iOS, certain keyboards, skins, Google Apps, widgets on Android) that could be construed as dealbreakers, but they each have a wide and deep pool of software for pretty much any mainstream user.
  9. #229  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Seriously, you don't see Jobs' situation not affecting Apple in the mobile space? I'm not sure if I'm surprised or not. However, there are definitely some areas of concern about that.

    Even at that, seeing the relevancy largely is up to the particular individual - however, your statement that my information was not true was incorrect. I'll repeat it, HP, at one time or another, has beaten Apple in every category; sales, size, market penetration, profitability, etc.

    I'll take it that your contention is that they can't. I disagree.
    No, I do not. iPhone 5 is done and waiting to be released. iPad 2 is done and waiting to be released. The next version of iOS is done and probably consist of them getting rid of bugs. So, for the next year Apple is set.

    I'm sure they are well on their way with iPhone 6 and iPad 3 with Jobs input. So, if Jobs had to step down today, Apple can coast for about the next 2 years and still be a force to reckon with because Jobs has already set the path they need to follow.

    We all know that no one lives forever. I'm sure Jobs and everyone else in the Apple executive team knows that. I'm sure Jobs has influenced them enough that Apple can carry on without him. Just like tons of other companies have prospered after the founder(s) have passed on.

    As for your last statement...

    At one point in time, I'm sure the Zune outsold the iPod in any random hour at one time or another.

    At one point in time, I'm sure Amazon music download has outsold the iTunes music store at one time or another.

    At one point in time, I'm sure Windows phone 7 outsold the iPhone in any random one second of time at one time or another.

    At one point in time, I'm sure somebody bought a Palm Pre that didn't need to be returned for a defect at one time or another.

    At any point in time any number of random things can happen to anything. So...
  10. #230  
    Quote Originally Posted by SoFly View Post
    ...
    You're missing the point. The apps from the app store can run on the iPhone, iPod touch, and the iPad. Can you connect a car to the Android market place and download apps to it?...
    And see, that's where these types of little urinating contests fail. Apple's goals in getting devices in the hands of users are marketdly different than Android's. The App store is secondary for Android - it's gravy. For Apple, apps were secondary as well, until they discovered what Palm already knew, that users wanted apps (and I'll give them credit, they figured out something Palm didn't know, that users were far more interested in ease of install than they were in quality of the apps, thus bringing us the new $1 app market).

    Android's goal is to get their OS on as many devices as possible, thus increasing their advertising revenue - that's their core business.
  11. #231  
    Quote Originally Posted by SoFly View Post
    No, I do not. iPhone 5 is done and waiting to be released. iPad 2 is done and waiting to be released. The next version of iOS is done and probably consist of them getting rid of bugs. So, for the next year Apple is set.
    Those who do not learn from history are bound to repeat it. Wanna place some bets on this scenario?

    Quote Originally Posted by SoFly View Post
    As for your last statement...

    At one point in time, I'm sure the Zune outsold the iPod in any random hour at one time or another...
    But, the "one point in time" I was discussing was about 12 years. That's a pretty long pont in time to simply ignore...
  12. #232  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    And see, that's where these types of little urinating contests fail. Apple's goals in getting devices in the hands of users are marketdly different than Android's. The App store is secondary for Android - it's gravy. For Apple, apps were secondary as well, until they discovered what Palm already knew, that users wanted apps (and I'll give them credit, they figured out something Palm didn't know, that users were far more interested in ease of install than they were in quality of the apps, thus bringing us the new $1 app market).

    Android's goal is to get their OS on as many devices as possible, thus increasing their advertising revenue - that's their core business.
    All I was saying that if you compare all the iOS devices (iPhone, iPod touch, and iPad) with all the Android devices, Android is not outrunning iOS by a significant margin. It's impressive that ONE company can hold their own against all those hundreds of Android devices.

    It's not secondary for Android. If they don't have the app store, then people are not going to buy the Android device when iOS has tons of apps and then Google can't get the advertising in front of the user.

    Apple was most likely planning to have apps all along. As we all know, Apple doesn't talk about things until they are ready to announce them to the public. They were most likely working on the SDK from when the iPhone was first released and when the SDK was done, they announced the app store. To say anything else is speculation with no proof to back it up.

    If Apple took the time to put a mini version of OS X on the iPhone from the very beginning, why would they not have already planned to have apps for the iPhone?
  13. #233  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Those who do not learn from history are bound to repeat it. Wanna place some bets on this scenario?
    What are they about to repeat?
  14. #234  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    But Android hasn't been "blown away" anywhere, and I don't expect that to start now. And similarly, there is room for other players including HP. They just have to make the room.
    Not to pour gasoline on dying embers, but...

    Apple’s iOS Is Miles Ahead Of The Competition, In Europe :: App Advice

    I just ran across this story, and remembered this post. Not sure what it means, just another data point.
  15. #235  
    Quote Originally Posted by SoFly View Post
    All I was saying that if you compare all the iOS devices (iPhone, iPod touch, and iPad) with all the Android devices, Android is not outrunning iOS by a significant margin. It's impressive that ONE company can hold their own against all those hundreds of Android devices.
    I don't think the question was whether or not Android was outrunning IOS by "a significant margin". The assertion that was being argued against was that no one (including Android) had put a dent in Apple's market share.

    Just ain't true.


    Quote Originally Posted by SoFly View Post
    It's not secondary for Android. If they don't have the app store, then people are not going to buy the Android device when iOS has tons of apps and then Google can't get the advertising in front of the user.
    This is really kind of cute. You say it's not "secondary", then you show that it is indeed secondary. I'll break it down for you.

    Selling advertising is Google's primary business.
    If giving away an OS (such as Android) helps achieve that purpose, then they will likely be interested, but that will be secondary to their business - selling advertising.

    If providing an App store helps them achieve that purpose, then they will likely be interested, but it will be secondary (or even tertiary) to their business - selling advertising.

    Now, don't get me wrong. Their business focus may change, but it hasn't yet.


    Quote Originally Posted by SoFly View Post
    Apple was most likely planning to have apps all along. As we all know, Apple doesn't talk about things until they are ready to announce them to the public. They were most likely working on the SDK from when the iPhone was first released and when the SDK was done, they announced the app store. To say anything else is speculation with no proof to back it up.
    Yep, it's 100% pure speculation. I'm not about to guess what they planned, only looking at what they did.

    However, to say that they did plan on dong so is also - you guessed it - speculation with no proof to back it up.

    Quote Originally Posted by SoFly View Post
    If Apple took the time to put a mini version of OS X on the iPhone from the very beginning, why would they not have already planned to have apps for the iPhone?
    Need to be clear, I don't question that Apple planned on having apps, the device came with some pretty basic apps. I just don't think Apple planned on the app store. As to why they would put a mini version of OS X - Possibly ease of development for them, why reinvent the wheel?

    But, I'm just speculating here.
  16. #236  
    Quote Originally Posted by SoFly View Post
    What are they about to repeat?
    Apple, as a company, was largely built around a single individual. When that individual left, the company almost fell apart for the entire time he was gone. When he returned, the company returned to profitability. The company rebuilt itself around that same individual. I've seen nothing to indicate they've moved away from a reliance on Jobs.

    Don't underestimate the the type of "Now I get to sit in the chair and implement all of the things I've always wanted to do" mindset when a vaccum of this magnitude is left in a corporate structure.
  17. #237  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    I don't think the question was whether or not Android was outrunning IOS by "a significant margin". The assertion that was being argued against was that no one (including Android) had put a dent in Apple's market share.

    Just ain't true.
    Yes, that was true because the iPhone wasn't on Verizon. Now, that it is, I think things will definitely change in the iPhone's favor.

    Europe as a whole clearly favours iOS its market share has run between 50 per cent and 45 per cent between January 2010 and January 2011 which is well ahead of nearest rivals Symbian, BlackBerry and Android.
    A quote from the article danbj13 posted. So, unless Android is doing extremely well in the rest of the world, looks like most of Android's market share came from being on Verizon without the iPhone being on Verizon. As I have always said, Androids growth is not all that impressive when the iPhone wasn't on Verizon.

    This is really kind of cute. You say it's not "secondary", then you show that it is indeed secondary. I'll break it down for you.

    Selling advertising is Google's primary business.
    If giving away an OS (such as Android) helps achieve that purpose, then they will likely be interested, but that will be secondary to their business - selling advertising.

    If providing an App store helps them achieve that purpose, then they will likely be interested, but it will be secondary (or even tertiary) to their business - selling advertising.
    They are not going to sell many Android phones without an app store now that people expect that. Secondary, primary. Who cares? They will not be successful in their advertising without a robust app store with apps that people are interested in buying for that Android device.
  18. #238  
    Quote Originally Posted by hparsons View Post
    Apple, as a company, was largely built around a single individual. When that individual left, the company almost fell apart for the entire time he was gone. When he returned, the company returned to profitability. The company rebuilt itself around that same individual. I've seen nothing to indicate they've moved away from a reliance on Jobs.

    Don't underestimate the the type of "Now I get to sit in the chair and implement all of the things I've always wanted to do" mindset when a vaccum of this magnitude is left in a corporate structure.
    I think we can all agree that Jobs is a very intelligent man. Look at all he has accomplished in the last 13+ years since he came back to Apple.

    I also think he is intelligent enough to know that he is not going to live forever and wants Apple to still be successful when he is gone and has worked on a plan for Apple to continue to be successful.

    Thing is us mere mortals will never know what those plans are until after the fact when everyone looks at the end results years down the road.

    So, I'll leave it at that and not speculate or use the old cliche of "Those who do not learn from history are bound to repeat it."

    I still remember when everyone was saying that the Apple store was going to fail because (to use your history metaphor) Gateway failed at it and Apple was going to repeat the same horrible result. We all see how that turned out about 10 years later.
  19. #239  
    Quote Originally Posted by SoFly View Post
    Yes, that was true because the iPhone wasn't on Verizon. Now, that it is, I think things will definitely change in the iPhone's favor.
    Covered, the conversation had shifted to Europe, where indeed, Android is putting a dent in Apple's share (just as it's been doing here). Verizon sales are already less than expected, so I don't think the "It's because it wasn't on Verizon" line is going to hold water very long.

    Quote Originally Posted by SoFly View Post
    They are not going to sell many Android phones without an app store now that people expect that. Secondary, primary. Who cares? They will not be successful in their advertising without a robust app store with apps that people are interested in buying for that Android device.
    Sort of an odd argument, you tell me I'm wrong, then tell me it doesn't matter.

    What sort of boggles my mind is the constant flip-flopping. You tell me the app store is Androids primary business, then say it doesn't matter.

    Makes it sort of difficult to carry on a discussion.

    I agree that App stores are important. Personally though, I think an open distribution model is going to be much or effective in the long run, both in the popularity of the device, and the popularity of the apps.

    Part of the success of multiple sources will be in how easy apps from outside the App Store are to install.

    From what I've seen, WebOS has that nailed. PreWare and WebOS Quick Install, both from the homebrew community, make OTA and USB Connected installation extremely simple.

    As I said, HomeBrew community support is likely going to be an important factor in the success of HP.
  20. #240  
    Quote Originally Posted by UntidyGuy View Post
    After Steve Jobs is gone, I'm pretty sure all Apple has to do is institute a "What would Steve do?" policy about decisions. What other company has a strategy which is so closely tied to one person's personality? His decisionmaking has been at the core of what the company does for decades.
    If they do that, they will likely contine to succeed (though I fear the comparisons of WWSD to WWJD). That said, I'm not overly optimistic about that happening. Those that reach that level of leadership company are typically not known for their humble, retiring personalities.

    If Jobs is unable to continue to lead Apple, I give them about a 50/50 chance of running into some major troubles in the next 3-4 years.

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