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  1. #101  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    You're interpreting the data wrong. Palm rose to 20 percent at one point and then went through an extended decline into oblivion. The month they rose to that level was not when the phone launched, but rather when Verizon stimulated sales by making the hotspot free and promoting it - something they didn't do for their other devices. If Verizon was sabotaging them into nothingness, they wouldn't have risen to the 20 percent in the first place. Verizon gave them retail availability, customers, and closeup shots and explanations of WebOS functionality that Palm never provided in their own ads - 18 months and counting. It was Palm that did absolutely nothing on their end except make excuses about reps not being trained enough. Verizon gave them access to huge amounts of customers, cut the price (and thus their own profit) aggressively, and gave away a hotspot app to sweeten the deal further. Palm's failure at Verizon is 100 percent Palm's fault.

    I'm tired of seeing this excuse repeated and repeated. Verizon reps pushing "Droid...Droid...Droid" comes at the expense of all other manufacturers besides Motorola. HTC and Samsung aren't letting it stop them. Neither is LG. HP Palm can't either.
    perhaps you didnt have the pleasure of walking into a verizon store to purchase the pre or pixi plus over the past year? i have never seen a store, of any kind, so blatantly encourage one NOT to purchase one of their own products. like i said, even though you fail to acknowledge it, palm made a ton of mistakes, and have to account for the majority of their failure. AGREED.

    but if you cant see how blatantly verizon has been anti-palm and didnt play any role in the failure of webOS on the VERIZON network, or havent had the unfortunate experience of having to purchase a webOS device from verizon, then I dont think you can comment objectively on the matter. your focus is on palm did this wrong, palm did that wrong. yes, you are right. but verizon's focus was elsewhere, and it cost palm. how's the pre 2 coming along? its been released unlocked, no major issues out of the ordinary that we've seen reported. its in the verizon customer catalog in the stores as "coming soon" just like the droid pro, lg vortex, and droid 2 global...the three latter have already been released. i'm sure verizon is "testing" it out, like they always do. uh huh. and it again doesnt have the nfl app, nor vcast, nor an account manager. you know where it is, somewhere on someone's desk who is lingering out testing 2.0.1. think android devices aren't released buggy on vzw? talk to my wife who returned her incredible and is having wifi issues with her droid 2, along with the screen getting locked, texts arriving late, random reboots.
    at this point, verizon should just release the damn thing and let hp do the marketing, whether its consumer oriented or targeted to some other market that hp thinks they can sell the pre 2 to.
  2. #102  
    Quote Originally Posted by wellwellwell11 View Post
    I hear your point, and it makes sense, though of course even Palm with cash they did have, understood they were bleeding what little they had, and couldnt pay for great expensive advertisments (hence the erie lady). At the same time Samsung has money, and jumped in adopted a OS that is already hot, and matched a competitve device with it. They didnt have to introduce a brand new OS, with little cash, and only on one carrier.
    Are you calling Jon Rubinstein a liar? I believe you were making the point that Palm could have cash hidden off the books to substantiate his "flush with cash" recent boasts. Either they were and misspent badly, or this was a ridiculous spin on his part and Palm was light on money. Regardless, that doesn't excuse this incompetence.

    Palm had plenty of money for ad campaigns prior to Verizon's launch. The creepy lady ads ran quite often on cable, particularly Food Network and HGTV (my wife and I saw at least two a night for quite awhile). After that, they ran "hipster" ads for the Pixi (featuring Passion Pit/the chipmunk music). After that, they tried YET AGAIN with "Life Moves Fast" in March. All of this messaging ran prior to the peak of Palm Pre Plus sales on Verizon in April.

    As for the OS, keep in mind that the Galaxy S ads for both the phones and the Tab don't even mention Android (that's in print and on TV). It's not a selling point because a kabillion different phones do Android these days. They picked up what they did different, and they sold the heck out of it. Not once did Palm communicate what WebOS did different in an effective manner. They didn't communicate what was different about the hardware (e.g. Touchstone). They failed...repeatedly. And it wasn't because of lack of money. They had money for commercials. That didn't have the creativity for good ones. Still don't, apparently.
  3. #103  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    Are you calling Jon Rubinstein a liar? I believe you were making the point that Palm could have cash hidden off the books to substantiate his "flush with cash" recent boasts. Either they were and misspent badly, or this was a ridiculous spin on his part and Palm was light on money. Regardless, that doesn't excuse this incompetence.

    Palm had plenty of money for ad campaigns prior to Verizon's launch. The creepy lady ads ran quite often on cable, particularly Food Network and HGTV (my wife and I saw at least two a night for quite awhile). After that, they ran "hipster" ads for the Pixi (featuring Passion Pit/the chipmunk music). After that, they tried YET AGAIN with "Life Moves Fast" in March. All of this messaging ran prior to the peak of Palm Pre Plus sales on Verizon in April.

    As for the OS, keep in mind that the Galaxy S ads for both the phones and the Tab don't even mention Android (that's in print and on TV). It's not a selling point because a kabillion different phones do Android these days. They picked up what they did different, and they sold the heck out of it. Not once did Palm communicate what WebOS did different in an effective manner. They didn't communicate what was different about the hardware (e.g. Touchstone). They failed...repeatedly. And it wasn't because of lack of money. They had money for commercials. That didn't have the creativity for good ones. Still don't, apparently.
    first off Rub I believe had cash, but we all know even if he did he didnt have alot. The advertisment he used was cheap, yes it was bad, and didnt show off what the phone could do, and understanding thats part of Palms fault intially. We arent talking about what he did pre VZ, though they made mistakes and tried to captialize on them with VZ. We should use basic understanding that by then with sales going south, the money Palm had, and continue to state was for trying to launch a new product (prob the pre 2 on sprint in july). SO no Palm never had alot of money, and the money they had was only enough to get them through maybe another year or 2 at best. Also I dont know what commerical you watch but every samsung galaxy variant (def the intial wave, epic, galaxy etc) showed androids catalog, stated running Googles android. Of course samsung would be touting that, it was their meal ticket into the smartphone game, since their instinct variants failed time and time again. Though Samsung has money in different avenues like TVs, so they have money for BETTER advertisment companys, which they really didnt need, since when they jumped in Android was already the OS of choice. Samsung didnt do anything great to sell their devices and we all know that, **** nabisco can make a phone out of cardboard, slap android on it and sell 3 million copys too, just because Android is hot right now. Though you will soon see that the oversaturated market of android from too many manfactuers will be Googles downfall
  4. #104  
    Quote Originally Posted by MDsmartphone View Post
    perhaps you didnt have the pleasure of walking into a verizon store to purchase the pre or pixi plus over the past year? i have never seen a store, of any kind, so blatantly encourage one NOT to purchase one of their own products. like i said, even though you fail to acknowledge it, palm made a ton of mistakes, and have to account for the majority of their failure. AGREED.
    So every Verizon store did this all of the time? If that's the case, why did sales RISE from the February launch to April when Verizon threw in a free hotspot to stimulate sales?

    The data doesn't support your accusations. Unless you think the reps needed a couple of months to get up to speed on their Palm disses, that is.

    but if you cant see how blatantly verizon has been anti-palm and didnt play any role in the failure of webOS on the VERIZON network, or havent had the unfortunate experience of having to purchase a webOS device from verizon, then I dont think you can comment objectively on the matter.
    On the contrary, I can comment objectively because I'm not using anecdotal data like "A verizon rep steered me away from the Pre and tried to sell me a Droid" as part of my perspective. I'm looking at sales data and trending timelines that paint a much more accurate picture. If you're going go with anecdotal data, be sure not to discount the Verizon reps in this very forum that have personally converted countless people to WebOS. Do their actions reduce the effect of the pro-Droid reps? Counteract them entirely. Not at all? We don't know because it's anecdotal data. That's the problem.

    As for the corporate Verizon, if they were anti-Palm, why did they slash prices - thereby cutting their profit - and throw in a free hotspot that no other phone had?

    your focus is on palm did this wrong, palm did that wrong.
    Because I can point to several conrete examples where that was true.

    how's the pre 2 coming along? its been released unlocked, no major issues out of the ordinary that we've seen reported. its in the verizon customer catalog in the stores as "coming soon" just like the droid pro, lg vortex, and droid 2 global...the three latter have already been released. i'm sure verizon is "testing" it out, like they always do. uh huh. and it again doesnt have the nfl app, nor vcast, nor an account manager. you know where it is, somewhere on someone's desk who is lingering out testing 2.0.1. think android devices aren't released buggy on vzw? talk to my wife who returned her incredible and is having wifi issues with her droid 2, along with the screen getting locked, texts arriving late, random reboots.
    at this point, verizon should just release the damn thing and let hp do the marketing, whether its consumer oriented or targeted to some other market that hp thinks they can sell the pre 2 to.
    That's HP Palm's fault yet again. If they knew how to launch a device, you wouldn't have heard that it was coming to Verizon until a launch date or at least a specific window ("1st half of 2009") was set in stone. Managing information about a device is one of the most important aspects of launching it these days. "Coming soon" or "In the coming months" are proof positive that the manufacturer doesn't seem very much in control of their product's fate, which is doubly bad for the consumer.
  5. #105  
    [QUOTE=mikah912;2792615]So every Verizon store did this all of the time? If that's the case, why did sales RISE from the February launch to April when Verizon threw in a free hotspot to stimulate sales?

    The data doesn't support your accusations. Unless you think the reps needed a couple of months to get up to speed on their Palm disses, that is.


    it wasnt the reason sales rose see post above:

    also as shown sales rose before the hotspot was offered free, back in feb to be exact. At that time too, that was when Palm intervined and told VZ they need to rethink their position on how they pit the Pre for sales. Hence Project jumpstart, and as stated after meeting with Palm VZ understood they TOO were to blame for the lackluster sales intially.

    CEO Jon Rubinstein Details Plans to Accelerate webOS Sales in Company Email | PreCentral.net

    as of Feb:

    Dave Whalen and I just returned from a very successful meeting with Verizon Wireless, where they acknowledged that their execution of our launch was below expectations and recommitted to working with us to improve sales. To accelerate sales, we initiated Project JumpStart nearly three weeks ago. Since then, nearly two hundred Palm Brand Ambassadors, supplemented by Palm employees from Sunnyvale, have been training Verizon sales reps across the U.S. on our products. Early results from the stores have already shown improvement on product knowledge and sales week over week. You may have also seen a growing number of Palm ads on billboards, bus shelters, buses, and subway stations—all getting the word out about Palm


    It's interesting (and gratifying?) to see that Verizon has taken a share of the blame for the Palm Pre Plus' and Pixi Plus' poor showing thus far on Verizon. Having spoken with several Verizon employees throughout the day today, I can say that internally at Verizon there isn't as much enthusiasm for webOS as one would hope - Verizon employees in general are better educated on, more familiar and more comfortable with the Droid by a wide margin. Hopefully this "Project JumpStart" will help to close that gap.

    they didnt start adv free mobile hotspot until 04/01/10, my brother has a VZ version and recieved a letter on that date as well stated his mobile hotspot on his pre plus will be free.
  6. #106  
    I believe that side of the story just as much as I believe Palm was flush with cash when HP bought them. Rubinstein cited the need for better training in almost every earnings call. I'm sure if Palm remained independent, ATT would've gotten some of that blame on the next one.

    It doesn't even jibe with the excuses anyway. The sales actually reached their very peak in May which is one month after the free hotspot kicked in. They plunged every month after that. HTC's been selling steady with the Incredible - and nothing else - for how long now?
  7. #107  
    "flush with cash" is a relative term. They had just taken on a big infusion of cash a couple of months before the acquisition. In hindsight it looks like Ruby did that to strengthen his negotiating position with HP. For Palm's size, it was a large pile of cash.

    They had the cash to run for another year, but not enough to respond to the massive advance of android phones.
  8. #108  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    I believe that side of the story just as much as I believe Palm was flush with cash when HP bought them. Rubinstein cited the need for better training in almost every earnings call. I'm sure if Palm remained independent, ATT would've gotten some of that blame on the next one.

    It doesn't even jibe with the excuses anyway. The sales actually reached their very peak in May which is one month after the free hotspot kicked in. They plunged every month after that. HTC's been selling steady with the Incredible - and nothing else - for how long now?
    lol well with the many discussions I have had with you past and present, if a fact presents itself to the benefit other then yourself, you state its somehow non believeable. Fact is Verizon did Palm dirty period, heres another article of non belief for you:


    Verizon Will Either Cancel Or Constrict Pre Launch - Doesn't want Palm ruining Application store launch... | DSLReports.com, ISP Information

    main parts:

    Several analysts insist everything's on track for the Palm Pre launch, but watch carefully and remember what we said. Even if the Pre does still launch, it won't get full marketing support and there will be other caveats, given Verizon's going to do everything in their power to herd consumers directly to their own application store.


    which if true is exactly what happen right. They did palm dirty, and most anyalist say because Palm refused to let VZ dilberlty cripple the handset, though they did anyway right(mommy commericals, GPS BS etc), but what really happen was not only Palm was hurt from the fiascal, but so was Verizon. At&T as you can see, even knowing how the sales were welcomed Palm in with open arms, had its own internet page for the device, marketed with the best commerical to date, sold it at the front along side the iphone versions. As you can see their were no complaints from Palm, or customers in regards to the AT&T version, so no you are incorrect in that matter again.
  9. #109  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    "flush with cash" is a relative term. They had just taken on a big infusion of cash a couple of months before the acquisition. In hindsight it looks like Ruby did that to strengthen his negotiating position with HP. For Palm's size, it was a large pile of cash.

    They had the cash to run for another year, but not enough to respond to the massive advance of android phones.
    Apparently, they didn't have enough cash to last six more months, and that's with the burn rate of just manufacturing the devices they had...not launching and promoting a Palm Pre 2 or any other successor device.
  10. #110  
    Quote Originally Posted by wellwellwell11 View Post
    lol well with the many discussions I have had with you past and present, if a fact presents itself to the benefit other then yourself, you state its somehow non believeable. Fact is Verizon did Palm dirty period, heres another article of non belief for you:


    Verizon Will Either Cancel Or Constrict Pre Launch - Doesn't want Palm ruining Application store launch... | DSLReports.com, ISP Information

    main parts:

    Several analysts insist everything's on track for the Palm Pre launch, but watch carefully and remember what we said. Even if the Pre does still launch, it won't get full marketing support and there will be other caveats, given Verizon's going to do everything in their power to herd consumers directly to their own application store.


    which if true is exactly what happen right. They did palm dirty, and most anyalist say because Palm refused to let VZ dilberlty cripple the handset, though they did anyway right(mommy commericals, GPS BS etc), but what really happen was not only Palm was hurt from the fiascal, but so was Verizon. At&T as you can see, even knowing how the sales were welcomed Palm in with open arms, had its own internet page for the device, marketed with the best commerical to date, sold it at the front along side the iphone versions. As you can see their were no complaints from Palm, or customers in regards to the AT&T version, so no you are incorrect in that matter again.
    Apparently, not "doing Palm dirty" consists of making every concession possible to them and awarding them flagship status however unearned it may be.

    But wouldn't that be doing Motorola, HTC, Samsung et al "dirty", so to speak? No, because they're expected to fend for themselves and be responsible for their own fate like big boys.

    I'd love it if Sprint "crippled" ANY phone with a free official wifi hotspot app.

    Meanwhile, as I asked several posts ago...what carrier did sell WebOS products "properly", consistently and successfully for the past 12-18 months?
  11. #111  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    Apparently, they didn't have enough cash to last six more months, and that's with the burn rate of just manufacturing the devices they had...not launching and promoting a Palm Pre 2 or any other successor device.
    bad article even his math is off by 2 months lol, and was before they launched on AT&T (which was not a bad at all) and presumably the Pre 2 launch on Sprint in late july if of course they were still a single entity. By the way that editor has some great math
  12. #112  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    Apparently, not "doing Palm dirty" consists of making every concession possible to them and awarding them flagship status however unearned it may be.

    But wouldn't that be doing Motorola, HTC, Samsung et al "dirty", so to speak? No, because they're expected to fend for themselves and be responsible for their own fate like big boys.

    I'd love it if Sprint "crippled" ANY phone with a free official wifi hotspot app.

    Meanwhile, as I asked several posts ago...what carrier did sell WebOS products "properly", consistently and successfully for the past 12-18 months?
    hmm thats weird I didnt read anywhere that the Pre was supposed to be Verizon flagship phone, only sprint, well thats now part of my UNBELIEVABLE FOLDER NOW. Though Moto, HTC, and Samsung wouldnt think to claim that.....yet (OVERSATURATION COMING SOON) because right now they are riding the Android wave, which is what major companys like Nokia said they are doing and very well should be....for now. So you would trade GPS issue, a unsuccessful VZ store, and boring VCAST for the chance to connect your laptop, or computer through your phone. <deleted by mod> you prob think the Nexus one sales were justafiable too huh.
    Last edited by wellwellwell11; 12/11/2010 at 04:02 PM. Reason: Please keep political talk out threads on in OT only
  13. #113  
    verizon screwed up with palm. They could care less if vzw succeeds or fails with webOS. They have no incentive to sell palm products. You want facts? Look at all the precentral posts. Not too many complaints about sprint or att or international carriers about their handling of webOS sales and customer purchase experiences or customer service. It's "anecdotal" if a handful of people say something, a trend if it happens over a short period of time, and a fact when it's a consistent complaint over 11 months. And it's continuing again with the pre 2. The ceo of vzw said recently there were three players in the smartphone market when asked about windows phone 7..apple, google, and rim. He didn't even mention webOS. Understandable, and a fact...but then WHY carry the prprpr
    e 2 at all? And why release it with crippled features that no other smartphone or dumbphone has to experience?

    forget palms mistakes for a minute. Tell me where verizon is doing right?
  14. #114  
    I wounder how Google will feel if next year the Iphone comes to VZ, and the next Droid commercial caters to small dogs and cats.
  15. #115  
    Has anyone ever considered the possibility that Verizon pushed the Droid over the Pre because it's...you know...a better phone?
  16. #116  
    Quote Originally Posted by MDsmartphone View Post
    verizon screwed up with palm. They could care less if vzw succeeds or fails with webOS. They have no incentive to sell palm products. You want facts? Look at all the precentral posts. Not too many complaints about sprint or att or international carriers about their handling of webOS sales and customer purchase experiences or customer service. It's "anecdotal" if a handful of people say something, a trend if it happens over a short period of time, and a fact when it's a consistent complaint over 11 months. And it's continuing again with the pre 2. The ceo of vzw said recently there were three players in the smartphone market when asked about windows phone 7..apple, google, and rim. He didn't even mention webOS. Understandable, and a fact...but then WHY carry the prprpr
    e 2 at all? And why release it with crippled features that no other smartphone or dumbphone has to experience?

    forget palms mistakes for a minute. Tell me where verizon is doing right?
    verizon's responsibility isnt to palm. its to there shareholders. if shunning palm appears to be in their best interest financially, i'd say they are doing 'right'. its palm's job to make consumers and carriers want to carry their phones. this is a profit business, not goodwill...
  17. #117  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mhunterjr View Post
    verizon's responsibility isnt to palm. its to there shareholders. if shunning palm appears to be in their best interest financially, i'd say they are doing 'right'. its palm's job to make consumers and carriers want to carry their phones. this is a profit business, not goodwill...
    i agree then why the interest in carring a Palm product, if we all assume VZ is shunning Palm on purpose?
  18. #118  
    Quote Originally Posted by wellwellwell11 View Post
    i agree then why the interest in carring a Palm product, if we all assume VZ is shunning Palm on purpose?
    To give their customers a choice?
  19. #119  
    Quote Originally Posted by nappy View Post
    To give their customers a choice?
    That makes some sense. In it's current form, and with the current available apps, what salesperson in their right mind would push Pre or Pre 2. This is not a question.
  20. #120  
    Quote Originally Posted by nappy View Post
    To give their customers a choice?
    it would make sense if they didnt push away, or pursuad a different purchase from potential buyers looking for a Palm device. It would make sense if they would address issues from customers who purchased a Palm device like the GPS issue. Why offer a choice to someone when someone makes that choice between options, only to be pushed away from that choice they just made. Its like a bean pie seller only selling bean pies, then starts selling pumpkin pies along side it, only to tell people the bean pies better then the pumpkin one whenever I get a offer for the pumpkin. If the thinking is bringing more customers your way, then thats bad business because people most likely will leave thinking they sell products they dont have any faith in.
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