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  1. #81  
    Mind you, if it takes minimal effort to port Angry Birds from Apple over to Palm and you can still become a seventy-thousand-aire.. I'd do it!
  2. #82  
    well as I stated this marketshare drop is nothing mind blowing to me with no new products out for over a year. With dozens of new devices, and of course carriers who had the pre on shelves the past 6 months or so def had to keep pushing the device to the rear as a sub mid range device, as they more modern devices kept rolling out. This means nothing really to me, it will if the new devices promised for 2011, the ones Palm and HP are working on TOGETHER flop, then there is a concern. Right now again Im surprised Webos is holding any market share, as well as a sizable fan base.
  3. #83  
    Quote Originally Posted by wellwellwell11 View Post
    Right now again Im surprised Webos is holding any market share, as well as a sizable fan base.
    If you run the numbers you'll see that there are relatively few "new" webOS users. I suspect the market share is made up mostly of the few who actually like the platform and the few who are stuck in a contract. For example, the Non-Premier, Day 1 Sprint Pre owners are stuck until April.

    So I am NOT surprised to see webOS still holding any market share.
  4. #84  
    Quote Originally Posted by taharka View Post
    If you run the numbers you'll see that there are relatively few "new" webOS users. I suspect the market share is made up mostly of the few who actually like the platform and the few who are stuck in a contract. For example, the Non-Premier, Day 1 Sprint Pre owners are stuck until April.

    So I am NOT surprised to see webOS still holding any market share.
    true, though if you have been on sprint for awhile as I have you know all it takes it making a call to telesales (after just 3 months) to get the 150 dollar instant rebate. Things most people either don't know about, or have never tried. So again with no new products for so long, its surprising to not see the marketshare in the toliet with the dozens of other flashy options. To me in the last 20 years, this is prob the most supportive group for a specific OS thats struggling Ive ever seen, even so when I was with WM.
  5. #85  
    Here's another interesting metric from Verizon: Verizon Sales Metrics Show Worrisome Trend | John Paczkowski | Digital Daily | AllThingsD

    The focus of this study is to show that RIM has been put on the back-burner by Verizon, but you'll quickly notice that Palm is on the chart with very diminishing figures.

  6. #86  
    Quote Originally Posted by barkerja View Post
    Here's another interesting metric from Verizon: Verizon Sales Metrics Show Worrisome Trend | John Paczkowski | Digital Daily | AllThingsD

    The focus of this study is to show that RIM has been put on the back-burner by Verizon, but you'll quickly notice that Palm is on the chart with very diminishing figures.

    Wow, I actually am impressed. I wouldn't have thought Palm ever approached 20% of Verizon sales.
  7. #87  
    Quote Originally Posted by barkerja View Post
    Here's another interesting metric from Verizon: Verizon Sales Metrics Show Worrisome Trend | John Paczkowski | Digital Daily | AllThingsD

    The focus of this study is to show that RIM has been put on the back-burner by Verizon, but you'll quickly notice that Palm is on the chart with very diminishing figures.

    funny if you look at that chart back in 09 htc, samsung, and motorla was in the toliet for sales, Which brings up my point of how fast marketshare and sales can climb, and drop fast in a matter of months. So again if executed correctly by HP, Palm's webos will be right back in the game like they never left, and the only reason their in the toliet is because of no new products for over a year. The real concern to me that isnt justified is RIM, because they have had products recently and they dipped off the map.
    Last edited by wellwellwell11; 12/10/2010 at 02:25 PM.
  8. #88  
    Quote Originally Posted by wellwellwell11 View Post
    funny if you look at that chart back in 09 htc, samsung, and motorla was in the toliet for sales, Which brings up my point of how fast marketshare and sales can climb, and drop fast in a matter of months. So again if executed correctly by HP, Palm's webos will be right back in the game like they never left, and the only reason their in the toliet is because of no new products for over a year.
    Not exactly. The chart shows a sales timeline of about 6 months for the Pre Plus and Pixi Plus. At the end of that timeline is outright oblivion, and the whole trajectory is a decline. Contrast that with HTC - which also hasn't had regular refreshes hardware on Verizon. Just with the aging Incredible (which was barely stocked for the first couple of months of release), they've kept a constant share between 10 and 20 percent of sales. Motorola's Droids also saw an uptick well after the Droid X and Droid 2 were released. Meanwhile, the Pre Plus just started dropping two months after release and never rose again.

    I guess if I was a Verizon executive looking at these metrics, I might not be in a rush to launch the Palm Pre 2 either. Sure, a bigger screen, sturdier WebOS handset will help somewhat. But they need more than that, I feel.
  9. #89  
    bottom line is with all that mommy advertising pre and pixi plus sales may have reached 20% sales similar to htc who had the touch pro 2, eris, and incredible.

    with better marketing and better and more products by palm, palm sales should have been ok. But like all things palm and vzw, it didn't go that way. What a terrible combo.
  10. #90  
    Quote Originally Posted by MDsmartphone View Post
    bottom line is with all that mommy advertising pre and pixi plus sales may have reached 20% sales similar to htc who had the touch pro 2, eris, and incredible.

    with better marketing and better and more products by palm, palm sales should have been ok. But like all things palm and vzw, it didn't go that way. What a terrible combo.
    Well said.
  11. #91  
    Quote Originally Posted by MDsmartphone View Post
    bottom line is with all that mommy advertising pre and pixi plus sales may have reached 20% sales similar to htc who had the touch pro 2, eris, and incredible.

    with better marketing and better and more products by palm, palm sales should have been ok. But like all things palm and vzw, it didn't go that way. What a terrible combo.
    Not to be snarky, but you're saying the key to Palm's success on Verizon was better products and better marketing....isn't that the key to any product's success?

    Anyway....the mom ads would've been irrelevant had Palm established effective branding through advertising in the 6 months on the market prior. They didn't.

    The failure is Palm's alone. And hardware is not the only problem. Windows Phone 7 has debuted with a pretty nice app catalog, ads, and lots of snappy OS-driven, bug touchscreen devices. Yet, they aren't setting the world aflame. Why?

    The reason is that Android and iOS have become so ubiquitous that any challenger must answer the question for consumers of "Why should I switch?" from either one of these mainstream platforms with tons of momentum. Palm never answered it, and HP Palm is going to have to in order to produce a different result. The market won't sustain two marginal touchscreen OSes backed by corporate titans with big pockets but for so long.
  12. #92  
    it's always good to have choice,and customers are always fickle. The iphone is in a league of it's own. But not everyone wants an iphone. Android is all over the place,and except for the app store, the user experience is vastly different from device to device. Never will one android device be so dominant in the market to dominate a particular carrier's catalog of devices. Palm screwed up big time with advertising and quality control with their hardware, and despite what some may think, atleast on vzw, the carrier is just as responsible for palm's problems on the vzw network. When reps consistently push droid devices over anything else, the first time smartphone buyer who doesn't know much, which is the market palm has a chance to succeed in, will usually be swayed by the sales person. I experienced this first hand when I went to buy the pre plus in JANUARY 2010, and with my wife when she wanted to upgrade to a smartphone (she now has a droid 2 and bugs galore). There is no legit reason for vzw to cripple gps, not release a vcast, nfl, or account manager app on their palm phones yet provide it on every other phone, smart or dumb, on their network. When comparing products they can then point out that palm phones don't have these but that droid or blackberry there does. That is complete BS. Sprint was able to provide these without any problems. Bottom line, the vzw network has been bad for palm, and if more palm or hp devices come to their network, it will be HP's responsibilty to advertise effectively this time around. I'm sure hp will release better quality hardware as well.
  13. #93  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    Not to be snarky, but you're saying the key to Palm's success on Verizon was better products and better marketing....isn't that the key to any product's success?

    Anyway....the mom ads would've been irrelevant had Palm established effective branding through advertising in the 6 months on the market prior. They didn't.

    The failure is Palm's alone. And hardware is not the only problem. Windows Phone 7 has debuted with a pretty nice app catalog, ads, and lots of snappy OS-driven, bug touchscreen devices. Yet, they aren't setting the world aflame. Why?

    The reason is that Android and iOS have become so ubiquitous that any challenger must answer the question for consumers of "Why should I switch?" from either one of these mainstream platforms with tons of momentum. Palm never answered it, and HP Palm is going to have to in order to produce a different result. The market won't sustain two marginal touchscreen OSes backed by corporate titans with big pockets but for so long.

    true I agree with most of what your saying, though we cant be nieve to the fact that Verizons effort of marketing the Pre to women did hurt their sales. As well as single advertising for their sales reps to push the droid more then a Pre. Again Verizon knew from watching how sales dropped within the 6 month window on sprint from launch, that advertisment, and a strong sales base would be needed to push those paticular devices. Verizon IMO didnt do either, and to me if a product which seemed since they got the plus version, was not wanted from the gate, why carry it? Why not pass on those devices, instead of half assing your efforts, and end up with excess inventory and in term end up giving away devices. Though I agree with what HP has to do, when trying to revive the webos platform. To me I do believe hardware will not be a issue this time, as well as marketing. What Hp needs to make sure is they have developer support, as well as carrier support when re launching Webos next year. Right now I think it shows that the last year, Webos is a respected OS, but is not wanted unless coupled with great hardware, and more then the mere 4k or so apps.
  14. #94  
    Quote Originally Posted by MDsmartphone View Post
    ...and despite what some may think, atleast on vzw, the carrier is just as responsible for palm's problems on the vzw network. When reps consistently push droid devices over anything else, the first time smartphone buyer who doesn't know much, which is the market palm has a chance to succeed in, will usually be swayed by the sales person. I experienced this first hand when I went to buy the pre plus in JANUARY 2010, and with my wife when she wanted to upgrade to a smartphone (she now has a droid 2 and bugs galore). There is no legit reason for vzw to cripple gps, not release a vcast, nfl, or account manager app on their palm phones yet provide it on every other phone, smart or dumb, on their network. When comparing products they can then point out that palm phones don't have these but that droid or blackberry there does. That is complete BS. Sprint was able to provide these without any problems. Bottom line, the vzw network has been bad for palm, and if more palm or hp devices come to their network, it will be HP's responsibilty to advertise effectively this time around.
    Verizon isn't responsible in the least. Those are conditions which Palm allowed to occur or didn't take enough action to stop. In fact, the next time you or anyone else wants to cast Verizon in the role of WebOS ArchVillain, ask yourself who the hero is?

    What carrier did WebOS products thrive on amidst today's competition? Sprint? Apparently not given the status quo. Bell? AT&T? O2? Which carrier has been the shining example to show all others how not to forsake our beloved Palm?

    Face it...it failed across generations (Plus or "Minus"), across form factors (Pre and Pixi), across developers (Windows Phone 7 just hit 4K apps. They should pass WebOS by New Years and become just the latest OS to leave them in the dust as far as apps), and across carriers.

    It can't be everyone else's fault. There's not a worldwide conspiracy to make sure Palm doesn't succeed. Occam's Razor, you know....
  15. #95  
    if you follow my posts, you'll see that I've made it clear palm has mad a ton of mistakes. But if you can't see how vzw had a role in the plus's ultimate fate on the vzw network, I don't know what else to tell you. I've experienced vzw's attitude towards palm first hand from day one when I purchased the pre in Jan, to when my wife purchased her droid incredible the droid 2, eight months later in august. Online customer service chats, in store salesperson chats, telephone customer service. It's all the same. If a carrier doesn't promote a device adequately and goes even so far telling you NOT to purchase a device, then why are they carrying it in the first place and why would a customer purchase a palm phone??? Of course palm is at fault somewhat for letting vzw do this in the first place, not going all out at training their sales reps, and releasing somewhat shoddy hardware with
    relatively poor battery life. But vzw, if you want to accept it or not, is equally at fault for the lack of success for palm on vzw. Remember the blackberry storm? "the storm is coming" campaign? What a piece of junk that phone was. Yet vzw sold large amounts of devices, and it wasn't the advertising that RIM did, it was all vzw. The fact that palm represented 20% of smartphone sales when first released on vzw shows that despite the droid, and newer storm,the droid eris, and a handful of windows phones (omnia 2, saga, touch pro 2, lg fathom, ozone) shows that there is a market for other devices besides android, on vzw. When the iphone comes, the android numbers will decline, there won't be much room for blackberry, windows, or palm....but there will still be some room because people like choice. Hp has a long way to go to execute new device launches and dev support, and to change customer perception, but when they do, and if they do effectively, some people
    will buy hp webOS phones. It's the same reason not everyone buys a sony or samsung tv, or a mercedes or camry. I sincerely hope we dont come down to a day when the only choice for a phone is an iphone or android device. Let windows, hp, and rim continue to bring competition, innovation, and push each manufacturer to excel. Hp has the longest way to go, but so what? Palm always innovates, they just don't execute that well. My hope is with a new manager (hp) things wil get better. Hey I'm a mets fan. "there's always next year."
  16. #96  
    Quote Originally Posted by wellwellwell11 View Post
    true I agree with most of what your saying, though we cant be nieve to the fact that Verizons effort of marketing the Pre to women did hurt their sales.
    The only reason those ads registered at all is because the "flush with cash" Palm failed to brand and effectively promote either the Pre or WebOS for 6 months prior. Since they willingly left it to the carriers to execute this vital aspect of their launches, they are responsible for the results.

    As well as single advertising for their sales reps to push the droid more then a Pre. Again Verizon knew from watching how sales dropped within the 6 month window on sprint from launch, that advertisment, and a strong sales base would be needed to push those paticular devices. Verizon IMO didnt do either, and to me if a product which seemed since they got the plus version, was not wanted from the gate, why carry it? Why not pass on those devices, instead of half assing your efforts, and end up with excess inventory and in term end up giving away devices.
    Since Verizon announced they were carrying it several months prior, it seems likely that they found themselves six months later with contractual obligations for a product that was no longer "hot" or compatible with their successful Droid strategy. But that's pure conjecture on my part. Either way, the "flush with cash" Palm should've needed nothing more from Verizon that to keep product in stock. They have to take their fate into their own hands.

    The Samsung Galaxy S phones have shipped over 3 million in the US in, what....5 months? It wasn't because they sat back and hoped T-Mobile, Sprint, Verizon and AT&T would have their back when it came to branding and promotion. It was because Samsung got out there with print and TV ads and AGGRESSIVELY marketed that Super AMOLED screen with a relentless and coordinated message across carriers (well, the fact that the phone rocks helps too....). They made it special. And they did it despite the fact that NO carrier has Samsung as their flagship provider. AT&T has Apple. T-Mobile and Sprint are HTC acolytes. Verizon is Motorola. Yet, Samsung muscled their way into being the number one Android manufacturer.

    That is a virtual blueprint for how HP needs to come out firing. I'm just not sure what hardware feature they could tout. In its current form, I don't think WebOS is it either. I don't think JustType would bring people in droves any more than the Windows Phone 7 commercials that show the guy updating his Facebook without "fumbling through a bunch of apps".

    Though I agree with what HP has to do, when trying to revive the webos platform. To me I do believe hardware will not be a issue this time, as well as marketing. What Hp needs to make sure is they have developer support, as well as carrier support when re launching Webos next year. Right now I think it shows that the last year, Webos is a respected OS, but is not wanted unless coupled with great hardware, and more then the mere 4k or so apps.
    Honestly, I think HP should pull a Microsoft. Not Microsoft mobile...but rather what they did with Xbox when they bought Bungie prior to Xbox 1 launching to keep Halo as an exclusive. Find the three baddest development houses for iOS and buy 'em outright. Enough "cash incentives" for developers...if you're going o do it, DO IT.

    Also, sponsor BOGO offers with each carrier, even Sprint. Pay for the carriers to grant instant rebates instead of mail-in. Remove every possible obstacle between a consumer and a WebOS device purchase.
  17. #97  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    The only reason those ads registered at all is because the "flush with cash" Palm failed to brand and effectively promote either the Pre or WebOS for 6 months prior. Since they willingly left it to the carriers to execute this vital aspect of their launches, they are responsible for the results.



    Since Verizon announced they were carrying it several months prior, it seems likely that they found themselves six months later with contractual obligations for a product that was no longer "hot" or compatible with their successful Droid strategy. But that's pure conjecture on my part. Either way, the "flush with cash" Palm should've needed nothing more from Verizon that to keep product in stock. They have to take their fate into their own hands.

    The Samsung Galaxy S phones have shipped over 3 million in the US in, what....5 months? It wasn't because they sat back and hoped T-Mobile, Sprint, Verizon and AT&T would have their back when it came to branding and promotion. It was because Samsung got out there with print and TV ads and AGGRESSIVELY marketed that Super AMOLED screen with a relentless and coordinated message across carriers (well, the fact that the phone rocks helps too....). They made it special. And they did it despite the fact that NO carrier has Samsung as their flagship provider. AT&T has Apple. T-Mobile and Sprint are HTC acolytes. Verizon is Motorola. Yet, Samsung muscled their way into being the number one Android manufacturer.

    That is a virtual blueprint for how HP needs to come out firing. I'm just not sure what hardware feature they could tout. In its current form, I don't think WebOS is it either. I don't think JustType would bring people in droves any more than the Windows Phone 7 commercials that show the guy updating his Facebook without "fumbling through a bunch of apps".



    Honestly, I think HP should pull a Microsoft. Not Microsoft mobile...but rather what they did with Xbox when they bought Bungie prior to Xbox 1 launching to keep Halo as an exclusive. Find the three baddest development houses for iOS and buy 'em outright. Enough "cash incentives" for developers...if you're going o do it, DO IT.

    Also, sponsor BOGO offers with each carrier, even Sprint. Pay for the carriers to grant instant rebates instead of mail-in. Remove every possible obstacle between a consumer and a WebOS device purchase.

    I hear your point, and it makes sense, though of course even Palm with cash they did have, understood they were bleeding what little they had, and couldnt pay for great expensive advertisments (hence the erie lady). At the same time Samsung has money, and jumped in adopted a OS that is already hot, and matched a competitve device with it. They didnt have to introduce a brand new OS, with little cash, and only on one carrier. I understand the majority, prob 90% of the blame went on palm for the lackluster performance so far, and their ultimate sale of the company, but you cant compare apples to oranges. My issue is how Verizon handled the situation, and could have done so alot better IMO. I also think the idea of BOGO offers, and cash incentives for developers would be a great idea, especially at this point with none really looking at Webos. HP can use their reach they have in the computer industry, and start luring in some of these big name developers. Hopefully HP has some sort of sense for the mobile market, and comes out swinging next year.
  18. #98  
    Quote Originally Posted by MDsmartphone View Post
    if you follow my posts, you'll see that I've made it clear palm has mad a ton of mistakes. But if you can't see how vzw had a role in the plus's ultimate fate on the vzw network, I don't know what else to tell you. I've experienced vzw's attitude towards palm first hand from day one when I purchased the pre in Jan, to when my wife purchased her droid incredible the droid 2, eight months later in august. Online customer service chats, in store salesperson chats, telephone customer service. It's all the same. If a carrier doesn't promote a device adequately and goes even so far telling you NOT to purchase a device, then why are they carrying it in the first place and why would a customer purchase a palm phone??? Of course palm is at fault somewhat for letting vzw do this in the first place, not going all out at training their sales reps, and releasing somewhat shoddy hardware with
    relatively poor battery life. But vzw, if you want to accept it or not, is equally at fault for the lack of success for palm on vzw. Remember the blackberry storm? "the storm is coming" campaign? What a piece of junk that phone was. Yet vzw sold large amounts of devices, and it wasn't the advertising that RIM did, it was all vzw. The fact that palm represented 20% of smartphone sales when first released on vzw shows that despite the droid, and newer storm,the droid eris, and a handful of windows phones (omnia 2, saga, touch pro 2, lg fathom, ozone) shows that there is a market for other devices besides android, on vzw.
    You're interpreting the data wrong. Palm rose to 20 percent at one point and then went through an extended decline into oblivion. The month they rose to that level was not when the phone launched, but rather when Verizon stimulated sales by making the hotspot free and promoting it - something they didn't do for their other devices. If Verizon was sabotaging them into nothingness, they wouldn't have risen to the 20 percent in the first place. Verizon gave them retail availability, customers, and closeup shots and explanations of WebOS functionality that Palm never provided in their own ads - 18 months and counting. It was Palm that did absolutely nothing on their end except make excuses about reps not being trained enough. Verizon gave them access to huge amounts of customers, cut the price (and thus their own profit) aggressively, and gave away a hotspot app to sweeten the deal further. Palm's failure at Verizon is 100 percent Palm's fault.

    I'm tired of seeing this excuse repeated and repeated. Verizon reps pushing "Droid...Droid...Droid" comes at the expense of all other manufacturers besides Motorola. HTC and Samsung aren't letting it stop them. Neither is LG. HP Palm can't either.
  19. #99  
    also as shown sales rose before the hotspot was offered free, back in feb to be exact. At that time too, that was when Palm intervined and told VZ they need to rethink their position on how they pit the Pre for sales. Hence Project jumpstart, and as stated after meeting with Palm VZ understood they TOO were to blame for the lackluster sales intially.

    CEO Jon Rubinstein Details Plans to Accelerate webOS Sales in Company Email | PreCentral.net

    as of Feb:

    Dave Whalen and I just returned from a very successful meeting with Verizon Wireless, where they acknowledged that their execution of our launch was below expectations and recommitted to working with us to improve sales. To accelerate sales, we initiated Project JumpStart nearly three weeks ago. Since then, nearly two hundred Palm Brand Ambassadors, supplemented by Palm employees from Sunnyvale, have been training Verizon sales reps across the U.S. on our products. Early results from the stores have already shown improvement on product knowledge and sales week over week. You may have also seen a growing number of Palm ads on billboards, bus shelters, buses, and subway stations—all getting the word out about Palm


    It's interesting (and gratifying?) to see that Verizon has taken a share of the blame for the Palm Pre Plus' and Pixi Plus' poor showing thus far on Verizon. Having spoken with several Verizon employees throughout the day today, I can say that internally at Verizon there isn't as much enthusiasm for webOS as one would hope - Verizon employees in general are better educated on, more familiar and more comfortable with the Droid by a wide margin. Hopefully this "Project JumpStart" will help to close that gap.
  20. #100  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    I'm tired of seeing this excuse repeated and repeated. Verizon reps pushing "Droid...Droid...Droid" comes at the expense of all other manufacturers besides Motorola. HTC and Samsung aren't letting it stop them. Neither is LG. HP Palm can't either.
    but to be honest of course HTC, LG and Samsung arent complaining their selling what Verizon, and its reps want them to sell....ANDROID.
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