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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by palmdoc2005 View Post
    A 'killer' tablet without enough apps compared to iOS and android would not gain much marketshare, unless there is a global launch, and that means also making the app catalog global - stop this geo-restriction!
    I'd really have to disagree. Given that the app store is very limited right now. However, it does have some strong titles, and also has incredible gaming capabilities. Not to mention that it is relatively easy to port over apps from iOS. Add to that document editing and a top notch web browsing experience and you've got a competitor.
    I try to envision a commercial showing of the tab. The screen fades in from black and I see a PalmPad staring at us, screen off, against a white background. The screen comes up to the home page, and apps are opened up (no hands, just showing off the pad alone). Browser, Pandora, Facebook, email, Angry Birds, Quick Office. All running smoothly together, with seamless transitions between. then each app very quickly being thrown off the screen and ending with the home screen fading out to PalmPad (or whatever it's called), and the commercial fading back to black with the HP logo. Damn, I'd buy that!

    Starting out strictly with a smartphone...you're really going to see the status- quo, with devs staying away due to the lack of users, and webOS regulated to a niche corner of the gigantic smartphone market.
    I don't understand the purpose of the line, I don't need to drink to have fun. Great, no one does. But why start a fire with flint and sticks when they've invented the lighter?

    Let's all give thanks to the app that started it all.
    http://forums.precentral.net/homebre...ebrew-app.html
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by morrison0880 View Post
    You win for most obvious statement of the week. =)
    Thank you. Been looking forward to this honor.
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by woodmaster View Post
    Seeing as webOS, Android, & Symbian run off a Linux kernel, I am thrilled they have a collective 30.7% for Linux. Down with Redmond!
    Oh..I've got to go switch to windows phone now. Goto support my local business scene!
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    #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by nappy View Post
    Yeesh. At 1.3% (and no potential for growth), is it fair to say webOS as we know it is officially dead?
    Not quite dead but I do agree that webOS won't get anywhere near Android/iOS/BB territory. Even if HP hit a home run with webOS in 2011 and 2012 they are still likely to get no more than 10% of the market. However, 10% of a tomorrow's smart phone market is going to be a lot bigger than 10% of today's. If HP can make money on the phone and tablet market with that kind of market share then webOS will be here to stay. HP are on record stating that webOS is going to be the core of their mobile and cloud strategy which is more than just phones and tablets. Like Microsoft, I can see HP dumping a whole lot of cash until webOS starts driving profits.
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by morrison0880 View Post
    True, but you pay with what you have. And what they have it a user-friendly, multi-tasking, beautiful OS that can really show off the power of the tablet form factor. There really are a ton of functions that tablets perform better than desktops or laptops. It's just that doing them on the ipad can be clumsy.
    That what Palm claimend about webOS on smartphones...just before admitting to "slower than anticipated adoption".

    Quote Originally Posted by morrison0880 View Post
    Tru, they've got slightly more apps than webOS. That's not going to change any time soon.
    Slighly?

    Quote Originally Posted by morrison0880 View Post
    If you present it the right way, users will come. And those users can easily be directed towards the smartphone field.
    I guess. But the issue is the other companies are presenting it the right way already. What, exactly, is going to make webOS standout this time around?
    Quote Originally Posted by morrison0880 View Post
    I totally agree with you, if we are focusing on the smartphone game. Even coming out with a killer phone isn't going to cause an explosion of marketshare. Hence, my tablet argument. Think of the connected possibilities. Tablet working seamlessly with printer working seamlessly with smartphone working seamlessly with server working seamlessly with...any other webOS enabled device. I really think that's the only path that makes sense, and the only path that will lead to any sort of significant market presence.
    This assumes people are going to buy these other webOS devices. They are not buying webOS anything now. Also, how many people are really going to buy additional devices just to get it to work with the PalmPad (assuming they actually buy PalmPads)? It would be a better selling point if it works seamlessly with the devices I currently have. Telling a user to buy a PalmPad and then turn around an buy a buch of other webOS devices is not only NOT seamless, it's a tough sell.
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by taharka View Post
    That what Palm claimend about webOS on smartphones...just before admitting to "slower than anticipated adoption".
    And the hype around the pre was huge. They just let the hype decay by holding out 6 months. That, combined with extremely poor marketing and a shoddy build quality led to its failure. The OS, on the other hand, has been praised repeatedly.

    Quote Originally Posted by taharka View Post
    Slighly?
    Yeah, again the need for sarcasm font. I'm talking to you Palm!

    Quote Originally Posted by taharka View Post
    I guess. But the issue is the other companies are presenting it the right way already. What, exactly, is going to make webOS standout this time around?
    This assumes people are going to buy these other webOS devices. They are not buying webOS anything now. Also, how many people are really going to buy additional devices just to get it to work with the PalmPad (assuming they actually buy PalmPads)? It would be a better selling point if it works seamlessly with the devices I currently have. Telling a user to buy a PalmPad and then turn around an buy a buch of other webOS devices is not only NOT seamless, it's a tough sell.
    No one is buying webOS anything, because the only option is a smartphone. That just leads to my argument that what webOS needs to survive is a highly successful tablet. It would be great to say "Hey! We've got this tablet that works seamlessly with your smartphone!" The problem is that, as I'm sure you'll agree, no one HAS a webOS smartphone. I think the tablet market is much more open to an entry competitor against the iphone. The only other I've seen advertised is the Samsung Tab, and that's being advertised by carriers. HP can market their PalmPad on their own. They they will be able to say, "Hey! We've got this smartphone that works seamlessly with your PalmPad!" Or, advertise them together. I still believe that marketing a phone alone will fail, but a tablet alone would bring in users. Then you can market it alongside phones and watch that marketshare grow.
    As for other companies presenting it the right way already? Apple is the only company I see who's doing it right. Like I said, I have not seen any tablets/pads advertised as ferociously and expertly as the iPad. People are waiting for a strong competitor, and I think the PalmPad can be it.
    I don't understand the purpose of the line, I don't need to drink to have fun. Great, no one does. But why start a fire with flint and sticks when they've invented the lighter?

    Let's all give thanks to the app that started it all.
    http://forums.precentral.net/homebre...ebrew-app.html
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikey47 View Post
    I can guarantee you that these numbers do not include Windows Phone 7, it would purely be residual Windows Mobile users.
    Bingo! First, that chart is showing how many PalmOS (aka Garnett) users there are and 1.3% is a believable amount left considering there are still a LOT of Centro and Treo 7xx users out there. Same that their WinMo section is referencing 6.x and not 7

    it's Neilsen which are those people who call you at dinner and ask you 20 questions. There data is based on "personal response" and the percentage of people responding don't necessarily represent the actual market. (I know as their competition Arbitron was one of my clients) The ask, "What smartphone brands do you know about? Apple IOS, Android, RIM, etc." It's very subjective.

    As an example, the last time I took one of those calls (they tricked my call screener), the TV shows they were asking about I had not even heard of let alone watched.

    comScore Reports September 2010 U.S. Mobile Subscriber Market Share - comScore, Inc

    ComScores data comes from ACTUAL devices that are hitting their SERVERS so it is an much more PRECISE indicator. October's report is not out yet but Palm was at 4.2% in September and with the dwindling increase in users, is probably around 4.0-3.9% or so.
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by blackmagic01 View Post
    if you look at the chart in the middle it says among feature phone users their "next desired smartphone operating system" other was 4% and undecided was 25%.

    So of that 70% only 4% of them possibly outright choose the section Palm would be in, other. And considering it's behind linux in that section and i think smybian now there's no guarantee that picking other means webos. And of that 70% only 25% seem really undecided. Short of drastic changes i can't see them deciding they want a palm phone. The numbers don't look good at all. And the trend doesn't look good either.
    What I was trying to say was Palm needs better product launches and promotions to grab people who are undecided or non-smartphone users. As of now, I guarantee, iPhone or Android has those people.

    People not wanting Palm can change. We've seen how one phone(iPhone, Droid) can change things. iPhone alone basically increased the smartphone user market. The Droid grabbed people who were not so gung ho about Android into avid users of Android. Even if they didn't get the Droid itself, they got an Android and Google wins on ubiquity.

    Palm just doesn't know how to do launches effectively so they can get a real foot in the door. How can anyone get excited over the Pre 2 when you can't even buy it at a carrier(US anyway) and there's no ads or anything for it? Do people even know it exists? Besides us, that is.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  9. #29  
    yup we all knew with no new products for over a year, and with not at all a huge breakthrough with the intial launch of the palm pre this is what the marketshare would look like. Though not as bad as I would have thought of it by now (more like 0), but I of course think HP can still captialize with webos in the smartphone biz. They have to relaunch Webos next year, and when they do IMO they need to match it with superior hardware, specs, and a OS that has no hiccups if it wants to survive in this market. I myself believe HP together with Palm can do this, because what HP lacked in vision, and understanding in the phone market Palm brings to the table. Then with what Palm lacked since day one which is resources, and a huge captial and worldwide reputation HP brings. Im on the wagon and will wait and see what happens.
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by UntidyGuy View Post
    Migrating customers from your tablet to your phone isn't going to happen. People don't move from your bigger screen to buy the smaller one - they move the other way. The PC industry failed, for years, to move people to tablets and phones. Apple, however, was able to move people from the iPod to the iPhone and from the iPhone to the iPad. Each new device initially appeals to a subset of users from the previous one.

    The reason for this is probably that you have to at least show the consumer that you can make a small device do one or two things really great. Then they will believe that when you make something bigger it will still do those small things really great. They won't believe you can make the bigger thing work on a smaller, cheaper device, though.

    Everyone needs a phone but not everyone needs a tablet. Practically everyone who buys a tablet already has a smartphone. Do you really think someone owns a webOS tablet and then says "Hmm, those smartphones look neat, too, I think I'll try one."

    Selling webOS tablets to consumers is going to be tough. At least RIM has a large and relatively loyal user base to market a tablet experience to. HP users devices experience a generic Windows environment. webOS will mean something to less than 2% of the market. By the time HP gets the webOS tablets on the shelves, there will be literally dozens of Android tablets, the second generation iPad, the RIM PlayBook, and Windows 7 slates to choose from. I can't think of a strong reason why someone would choose a webOS tablet given those choices.
    gotta disagree with ya. I see the tablet arena as much more open than the smartphone. WebOS is wading into infested water with phones. The tablet market is less saturated, so the is more opportunity there. Even if the majority of buyers already have a smartphone, if they're exposed to a fantastic pad experience they may be more likely to convert. Either way I think it is the best shot at getting webOS to become widely recognizable as distinct and viable alternative to the other mobiles OS's out there.
    I don't understand the purpose of the line, I don't need to drink to have fun. Great, no one does. But why start a fire with flint and sticks when they've invented the lighter?

    Let's all give thanks to the app that started it all.
    http://forums.precentral.net/homebre...ebrew-app.html
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by The Phone Diva View Post
    What I was trying to say was Palm needs better product launches and promotions to grab people who are undecided or non-smartphone users. As of now, I guarantee, iPhone or Android has those people.

    People not wanting Palm can change. We've seen how one phone(iPhone, Droid) can change things. iPhone alone basically increased the smartphone user market. The Droid grabbed people who were not so gung ho about Android into avid users of Android. Even if they didn't get the Droid itself, they got an Android and Google wins on ubiquity.

    Palm just doesn't know how to do launches effectively so they can get a real foot in the door. How can anyone get excited over the Pre 2 when you can't even buy it at a carrier(US anyway) and there's no ads or anything for it? Do people even know it exists? Besides us, that is.
    i understand. Personally the Pre 2 doesn't remotely interest me so i think first you've gotta make a phone that's appeals to more then 3/4 of your 1.3% base. Thus, though i agree then need to launch much much much better, i think what they are launching makes it irrelevant cause it's not a compelling product outside of that tiny 1.3%

    I agree people can change. I just don't see a catalyst for change. Maybe CES will present the total package but honestly i don't think they will fix all that is wrong and it's more then just hardware. There are features missing from the software too, apps missing, desktop sync missing. I know that many pre users are happy but i think outside that 1.3% marketshare, the lack of having those things may, be a negative when one is weighing the strengths and weaknesses of a platform. So i'm not saying it's impossible just that it's unlikely.

    But the real point of i was trying to get at was you often hear people (from any platform) say but 70%+ don't have smartphones, If we get ALL OF THEM, we win! My only point was that's not very realistic. And if you look at the feature phone people they are saying, right now, they aren't going with the symbians, linux, webos, the others. So just that point. it's unlikely to get that 70%.

    Quote Originally Posted by morrison0880 View Post
    True, but you pay with what you have. And what they have it a user-friendly, multi-tasking, beautiful OS that can really show off the power of the tablet form factor. There really are a ton of functions that tablets perform better than desktops or laptops. It's just that doing them on the ipad can be clumsy. Tru, they've got slightly more apps than webOS. That's not going to change any time soon. But it's the same deal in the smartphone realm, only with much more competition. If you present it the right way, users will come. And those users can easily be directed towards the smartphone field.
    yes and what they have isn't a great position. multitasking and a beautiful OS mean little when you have few apps to multitask. And don't get it twisted, they don't have Slightly more apps they've got hundreds of thousands more apps. I don't care about numbers of apps thought. they have the well known apps that people want and the momentum cause every new company wants to make an ipad app. The military is using them already. Businesses, tv networks. It's already got the massive head start. LIke if your a hospital tablet are you getting? Probably not the Palm one unless there are all kinds of patient management apps or diagnostic apps? To me that's the big problem. the market is bigger then just web surfers and people that really want to play jungle sounds and tic tac toe sexy for women. i just think for most consumers just introducing a tablet isn't enough they need to make the sale as to what to do with it and why buying a palm or android tablet is a better way to accomplish that then an ipad.



    Quote Originally Posted by morrison0880 View Post
    I totally agree with you, if we are focusing on the smartphone game. Even coming out with a killer phone isn't going to cause an explosion of marketshare. Hence, my tablet argument. Think of the connected possibilities. Tablet working seamlessly with printer working seamlessly with smartphone working seamlessly with server working seamlessly with...any other webOS enabled device. I really think that's the only path that makes sense, and the only path that will lead to any sort of significant market presence.
    well personally i'm not buying a tablet and i print next to nothing so i couldn't care less about printing capabilities or tablets in all truth. I haven't bought a printer in 10 years and i got a great one left by the dumpster. Just my opinion, i think short a massive move by Hewlett Packard to fix problems in features and hardware and drastically pump up the app catalog i think they are massively in trouble. I haven't heard a single person outside of precentral mention a webos tablet or buying a printer manufacture by anyone. That tells me it's there's not the demand there. I don't mean that to bash the Pre or HP, it's just how i read a very tough market for both smartphones and tablets right now.
    Last edited by blackmagic01; 12/01/2010 at 06:46 PM.
  12. #32  
    If you can predict what the smartphone market is gonna be 5 years from now then you should be at least a billionaire by now with your awesome prediction skills....

    To put it in perspective who knew about Android in 2005??...besides you?
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by blackmagic01 View Post
    And don't get it twisted, they don't have Slightly more apps they've got hundreds of thousands more apps.
    /sarcasm
    I don't understand the purpose of the line, I don't need to drink to have fun. Great, no one does. But why start a fire with flint and sticks when they've invented the lighter?

    Let's all give thanks to the app that started it all.
    http://forums.precentral.net/homebre...ebrew-app.html
  14. #34  
    @ blackmagic01

    I agree you can't get all 70% but that's a lot of potential customers. You'll get some if you market correctly. Just look at what the iPhone did with previous non-smartphone users.

    Palm just hasn't been doing anything to make enough people(and not just techies) go "wow" or even "I want that" or "I can use that", for quite some time now. Instead you have many people still thinking Palm is either dead or near death.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by morrison0880 View Post
    /sarcasm
    yeah. hard to detect when it's typed. i figured but only after reading you say it outright in another post. But that was after i wrote my post. Sarcasm is tough to express on the net.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Phone Diva View Post
    @ blackmagic01

    I agree you can't get all 70% but that's a lot of potential customers. You'll get some if you market correctly. Just look at what the iPhone did with previous non-smartphone users.

    Palm just hasn't been doing anything to make enough people(and not just techies) go "wow" or even "I want that" or "I can use that", for quite some time now. Instead you have many people still thinking Palm is either dead or near death.
    i don't think you can compare the market now to when the iphone entered. there wasn't much competition then for smartphones. That's not the case now. Iphone was built on the massively successful ipod and itunes combination. HP has no gateway music player with such a loyal base of users using or similar software platform. Regardless i think it's quite simple, only 4% of that 70% are looking in Palms direction. It's going to take something Herculean to change that. You say look what iphone did. I'd say ok. Iphone was leaps and bounds better then the treos and the razors. Palm needs to be that much better then the iphones, EVOs, Epics, Windows phones. We'll see if they can.
    Last edited by blackmagic01; 12/02/2010 at 12:19 AM.
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by morrison0880 View Post
    I'd really have to disagree. Given that the app store is very limited right now. However, it does have some strong titles, and also has incredible gaming capabilities. Not to mention that it is relatively easy to port over apps from iOS. Add to that document editing and a top notch web browsing experience and you've got a competitor.
    I try to envision a commercial showing of the tab. The screen fades in from black and I see a PalmPad staring at us, screen off, against a white background. The screen comes up to the home page, and apps are opened up (no hands, just showing off the pad alone). Browser, Pandora, Facebook, email, Angry Birds, Quick Office. All running smoothly together, with seamless transitions between. then each app very quickly being thrown off the screen and ending with the home screen fading out to PalmPad (or whatever it's called), and the commercial fading back to black with the HP logo. Damn, I'd buy that!

    Starting out strictly with a smartphone...you're really going to see the status- quo, with devs staying away due to the lack of users, and webOS regulated to a niche corner of the gigantic smartphone market.
    While it's true that Palm has effectively made it easy to port iOS games using the PDK the problem still lies with the developer. How many developers/companies are really interested in and are investing time in porting their apps?

    Not that many. With the exception of Gameloft with their various games and Rovio porting Angry Birds, what other big names have ported their games? Not many.

    Maybe a compelling tablet will entice developers to make the port but given their success on a single platform there's not much of an incentive to invest the time in a virgin platform (webOS). It's kind of a catch-22 situation. webOS needs the apps to move forward (it's true) and the developers want a market to develop for, which neither side has.
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by barkerja View Post
    While it's true that Palm has effectively made it easy to port iOS games using the PDK the problem still lies with the developer. How many developers/companies are really interested in and are investing time in porting their apps?

    Not that many. With the exception of Gameloft with their various games and Rovio porting Angry Birds, what other big names have ported their games? Not many.

    Maybe a compelling tablet will entice developers to make the port but given their success on a single platform there's not much of an incentive to invest the time in a virgin platform (webOS). It's kind of a catch-22 situation. webOS needs the apps to move forward (it's true) and the developers want a market to develop for, which neither side has.
    Not to mention this is limited to games and only games developed with a certain tech. All the other utility and productivity apps are still left up to the developer's willingness to rewrite rather than port. In the end, people don't seem to be switching over for games that are already available (and regularly updated) on their current platform. Maybe some of those non-smartphone owners will take a peek but if they peek at the other platforms as well, it will likely turn out to be the same "no contest" situation that exists today.
  18. #38  
    This does not mean Palm is selling less phones, this is just stating that more people are now using smartphones. They could go down to 1% and still palm could actually selling more phones then before. And making a profit aswell which is the biggest part of a company.
  19. #39  
    speculation . That's all that is . Hp will splash into the pond @ CES wait and see. They are far to big a company to slip into the mud. They know what they are doing . If they did not . They would be such a big company in the first place. Be assured they have people working and planning everything out.
    ĦṔ-Ḷṫ-Ŧḯη
    Here is a direct link to webOS Doc for all carriers
    http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/...octor_Versions
    P.S. if i have helped you and you are thankful please hit the thanks button to the right---->
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadavis08 View Post
    speculation . That's all that is . Hp will splash into the pond @ CES wait and see. They are far to big a company to slip into the mud. They know what they are doing . If they did not . They would be such a big company in the first place. Be assured they have people working and planning everything out.
    Is that why the Slate and the android tablet/printer were such big successes?
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