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  1. #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    I'm interested in hearing more about this mythical market of non-smartphone users who are ripe for the smartphone pickings. For those of you who suggest this is HP's target market, have you ever stopped to consider that they are non-smartphone users for a reason? What exactly does HP offer to make them change their minds?

    In the once ago, it may have been a matter of money for the handset. These days, popular smartphones are cheap to free, and advertised as such on every station on every show. Initial cost of entry is not a barrier, so trying to sell cheap phones will not reach these people. Even at free, there is always a handset that is cheaper.

    If the cost issue is the price of the monthly bill, that hasn't changed. Your free smartphone still costs them $70 - $100 per month. Features? Their feature phones have plenty of features, and they don't come close to using all of those. Complexity? Some people will never want to carry something in their pocket that acts so much like a computer.

    I could go on. But my point has been made. HP needs to learn this lesson: People who don't want smartphones, don't want smartphones! Chasing after people who self identify as people who don't want what you sell is insane.

    As for those who are in their late teens, early twenties, and embarking on adulthood for the first time, they already know what they want. They are saving up for an iPhone, and maybe and EVO. They may not have a smartphone, yet. But, they don't live under a rock, either.

    The first-time smartphone buyer is not some rube from the sticks who has never seen one of these new fangled gadgets, and will be awed by the Pre. It is not like they don't already know what's out there, and what they want. Showing them a Pre will not be the same as showing a flashlight to a primitive people who think it's magic. You still have to convince them that they really don't want an iPhone, EVO, or BB, like their friends, family, and co-workers.
    Well said. What I am seeing on my commute to NYC is allot of young urban people, girls and boys, age 13 to 20 are carrying Blackberries.
  2. cgk
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    #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by NickDG View Post
    By pricing it low enough. Think of it being HP's Blackberry Curve. A cheap high volume device.
    OK we have confirmation this morning that this is not what's happening in the UK - the carriers have taken a pass and HP are going it alone selling the Pre as a premium device for 399 straight off their website.

    So if the UK pricing is anything to go off, HP don't intend for this to be a cheap high volume device.
  3. #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by CGK View Post
    OK we have confirmation this morning that this is not what's happening in the UK - the carriers have taken a pass and HP are going it alone selling the Pre as a premium device for 399 straight off their website.

    So if the UK pricing is anything to go off, HP don't intend for this to be a cheap high volume device.
    The Pre or the Pre 2? And I was referring to on contract pricing. Like i said in my previous post HP is practically giving the Pre Plus away for free on a 2 year contract. How much is an unlocked off contract Curve or Torch in the UK?

    The carriers passing on the Pre 2 must know about a newer model coming. If I was in their position I would wait too if a new model is going to be released in the coming months.
    Palm Vx -> Treo 600 -> Treo 700p -> Centro -> Pre (Launch Phone 06/06/09) -> AT&T Pre Plus with Sprint EVDO swap -> Samsung Epic 4G w/ Froyo
  4. cgk
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    #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by NickDG View Post
    The Pre or the Pre 2? And I was referring to on contract pricing. Like i said in my previous post HP is practically giving the Pre Plus away for free on a 2 year contract. How much is an unlocked off contract Curve or Torch in the UK?

    The carriers passing on the Pre 2 must know about a newer model coming. If I was in their position I would wait too if a new model is going to be released in the coming months.
    Pre 2.

    The blackberry curve can be hand for about 150-170, the torch is about 440.
  5. #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by CGK View Post
    OK we have confirmation this morning that this is not what's happening in the UK - the carriers have taken a pass and HP are going it alone selling the Pre as a premium device for 399 straight off their website.

    So if the UK pricing is anything to go off, HP don't intend for this to be a cheap high volume device.
    And if they continue down that road -- which it seems they might -- then HP and Pre 2 might not be very successful.
  6. #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    I'm interested in hearing more about this mythical market of non-smartphone users who are ripe for the smartphone pickings.
    That market is not "mythical" at all. The numbers over the last couple of years show that market exists and is being tapped into. In fact, the smartphone market increased by about 15% last quarter. That equates to roughly 8M of those non-smartphone users who are now smartphone users. So yes, that market is actually rip for the smartphone pickings but, as you've stated, these people probably know what they want already. The numbers show that, for now, they want Android devices, iOS devices and BBs (in that order during the most recent quarter). What they clearly don't want (at the moment) is WM and webOS. Those numbers are for the US but the same is happening in the international market.
  7. #67  
    I think the "untapped" smartphone market is a little like the "untapped" 3DTV market. Eventually, everyone will have a smartphone because it will be the only kind of phone available to buy. That is already starting to happen.

    I don't think people are consciously saying to themselves, "Guess it's time I get a smartphone." No, they don't even know what a smartphone is. They don't want a smartphone as in a category of device; they want a specific phone that happens to be a smartphone. That's what's driving the growth.

    No one wants a 3DTV either. But, eventually, we all will have them. The price will reach standard TV levels soon enough. Also, all TVs will just ship with 3D capability, same as HD.

    What this means is that there is no room in the market for sub-par players simply because more people are getting into the market. When it comes to 3DTVs, people will continue to buy the Sony, Mitsubishi, Sharp, and Phillips that they always buy. It is just that the next one might have a 3D component in it.

    The same is even more true with phones. Whatever brand a person buys now, they will probably continue to buy when it gets a smartphone OS on it. If there is a smartphone on the market they have been wanting for a while, they will eventually buy it. Palm has no additional access to new customers simply because more of them will be buying smartphones.

    The fact that they are buying smartphones is incidental. They are not buying smartphones in their minds. They are buying iPhones, EVOs, and BBs. If they are ignoring Palm now, they will keep ignoring them in the future. Palm still has to make a case for itself. And so far, they haven't. "We make a cheap smartphone!" is not a reason for consumers to buy the product.
  8. cgk
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    #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    I think the "untapped" smartphone market is a little like the "untapped" 3DTV market. Eventually, everyone will have a smartphone because it will be the only kind of phone available to buy. That is already starting to happen.

    I don't think people are consciously saying to themselves, "Guess it's time I get a smartphone." No, they don't even know what a smartphone is. They don't want a smartphone as in a category of device; they want a specific phone that happens to be a smartphone. That's what's driving the growth.

    No one wants a 3DTV either. But, eventually, we all will have them. The price will reach standard TV levels soon enough. Also, all TVs will just ship with 3D capability, same as HD.

    What this means is that there is no room in the market for sub-par players simply because more people are getting into the market. When it comes to 3DTVs, people will continue to buy the Sony, Mitsubishi, Sharp, and Phillips that they always buy. It is just that the next one might have a 3D component in it.

    The same is even more true with phones. Whatever brand a person buys now, they will probably continue to buy when it gets a smartphone OS on it. If there is a smartphone on the market they have been wanting for a while, they will eventually buy it. Palm has no additional access to new customers simply because more of them will be buying smartphones.

    The fact that they are buying smartphones is incidental. They are not buying smartphones in their minds. They are buying iPhones, EVOs, and BBs. If they are ignoring Palm now, they will keep ignoring them in the future. Palm still has to make a case for itself. And so far, they haven't. "We make a cheap smartphone!" is not a reason for consumers to buy the product.
    Even harder to do so when the carriers will not take your phones (the other networks in the UK have confirmed they will not take the Pre 2). Sure some people will buy unlocked phones (and I'm one of them) but it's a fraction of the overall market.

    HP must surely have something amazing up their sleeve for CES - however you have to wonder what it will cost if they think they can get 399 for the Pre 2...
  9. #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by NickDG View Post

    The carriers passing on the Pre 2 must know about a newer model coming. If I was in their position I would wait too if a new model is going to be released in the coming months.
    That makes no sense. Even if HP announces something at CES, i wouldn't expect anything sooner than a spring or summer release. That's plenty of time for the Pre 2 to run its course.

    Besides, if that's the logic, then why accept any HTC phone for example? You know they're coming out with another in the "coming months"

    How about this? Carriers don't think they can sell them? Could that be it? Besides, AT&T just launched a Pre in the summer. Tmobile never had one. And Sprint, considered the cheapest carrier and third tier, won't even carry it.

    HP had choices. Just wait...was one of them. The timing was off on a Pre 2 (and webOS 2) absent a new branded device.
  10. #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by cardfan View Post
    That makes no sense. Even if HP announces something at CES, i wouldn't expect anything sooner than a spring or summer release. That's plenty of time for the Pre 2 to run its course.

    Besides, if that's the logic, then why accept any HTC phone for example? You know they're coming out with another in the "coming months"

    How about this? Carriers don't think they can sell them? Could that be it? Besides, AT&T just launched a Pre in the summer. Tmobile never had one. And Sprint, considered the cheapest carrier and third tier, won't even carry it.

    HP had choices. Just wait...was one of them. The timing was off on a Pre 2 (and webOS 2) absent a new branded device.
    Maybe instead of begging carriers to carry the Palm Pre 2 on Facebook, people should beg HP Palm for competitive hardware now.
  11. #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    Maybe instead of begging carriers to carry the Palm Pre 2 on Facebook, people should beg HP Palm for competitive hardware now.
    Isn't that what people have been doing for almost a year now? Palm/HP, after ignoring people for a very long time, decided to finally answer by asking people to beg the carriers instead.
  12. #72  
    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    I think the "untapped" smartphone market is a little like the "untapped" 3DTV market. Eventually, everyone will have a smartphone because it will be the only kind of phone available to buy. That is already starting to happen.
    Not really. A consumer will generally replace his/her phone much more frequently than they'd replace their TV. I see the point you are trying to make but those two are really not the same type of market at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    I don't think people are consciously saying to themselves, "Guess it's time I get a smartphone." No, they don't even know what a smartphone is. They don't want a smartphone as in a category of device; they want a specific phone that happens to be a smartphone. That's what's driving the growth.
    I'm not sure that matters. The market is still growing and it is because people are buying smartphones more and more. I think you have a good point that consumers may not always call them "smartphones" and just buy the "thing" that has the features they like. So HP needs to make webOS devices "something that people will pick". Like you, I don't think they are doing a good job either.

    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    What this means is that there is no room in the market for sub-par players simply because more people are getting into the market.
    HP/Palm? You listening? Ok, maybe that's a bit drastic. Surely there's always a market for sub-par products, but at above-par prices? Referring to the lastes news on Pre 2 pricing in the UK: I think you have a problem here HP.

    Quote Originally Posted by dandbj13 View Post
    When it comes to 3DTVs, people will continue to buy the Sony, Mitsubishi, Sharp, and Phillips that they always buy. It is just that the next one might have a 3D component in it.

    The same is even more true with phones. Whatever brand a person buys now, they will probably continue to buy when it gets a smartphone OS on it. If there is a smartphone on the market they have been wanting for a while, they will eventually buy it. Palm has no additional access to new customers simply because more of them will be buying smartphones.

    The fact that they are buying smartphones is incidental. They are not buying smartphones in their minds. They are buying iPhones, EVOs, and BBs. If they are ignoring Palm now, they will keep ignoring them in the future. Palm still has to make a case for itself. And so far, they haven't. "We make a cheap smartphone!" is not a reason for consumers to buy the product.
    Interesting. You could be right but I don't think people are as brand-loyal when it comes to phones. Could be because the price is relatively small compared to TVs and big ticket items (I'm talking upfront cost on a contract, which is how most people buy). I wonder if there are any studies out there addressing brand-loyalty in the mobile space. I do agree with you when you consider it from an ecosystem point of view. If I have tons of money and time invested into the iOS-based ecosystem, why would I switch if your ecosystem is not better (or doesn't even exist)? Again, Palm knew this. It's why they thought it was important to plug into iTunes via USB syncing and then later via the PDK app-porting. In both cases they targeted a small portion of Apple's ecosystem hoping to ride that wave to success. It didn't work with iTunes syncing and hasn't worked yet with game porting.
  13. #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by kumquatsrus View Post
    You apparently don't understand the rules around here. A positive review ror any Pre competitor makes it a "solid" device. Multiple techinical awards for WebOS don't mean anything though, only sales.

    /sarcasm
  14. #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by C-Note View Post
    You are pretty quick to call the new Windows platform a success. It's only been a few days. I think it's too early to give them a place on the medals platform. Unless you are projecting your hopes into your analysis.
    And we have a winner!!
  15. #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by C-Note View Post
    That may be true, but how do those omissions vault Windows into a "must have" platform on the level of iOS and RIM (as per the the drift of the OP). It may be great, but it's too early to crown them as a success.
    The demand for encryption on devices is increasing, though it's primarily in the enterprise market. However, that's a hardware market that HP understands. I suspect the new devices are going to have encryption.
  16. #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by CGK View Post
    We are back to fairies and magic again, the pre was rejected by the market, why is the Pre 2 suddenly going to be a success when it's being released like the red-head stepchild with no marketing push and no support from the carriers?
    It's not. The Pre 2 isn't expected to be a some major attention getting success. It's basically a place holder. We haven't seen HP's new offerings yet. We will.
  17. #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by UntidyGuy View Post
    Let's just say that the HP division that makes printers probably has about 100 times more clout than the division that makes smartphones and tablets. The printer division is going to integrate their printers with whatever mobile devices that are out there and prioritize the platforms that are the most popular - as they did. If they want to attach an android tablet to their printers they will - and did.
    ...
    Do you really believe the different divisions at HP are that segregated? Have you dealt with HP at any real level (I don't mean bying a printer from them, I mean ordering hundreds of devices at one time).
  18. #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    And the Pre 2 is to win hearts by being stealth launched overseas with "pre-production" hardware and a WebOS 2.0 that doesn't even have all of the features they announced for 2.0?
    ....
    You have a list of the features of the release version of WebOS 2.0? I'm impressed. Can you share it with the rest of us?
  19. #79  
    yes please i would really like to hear this list please please please !!!!
    ĦṔ-Ḷṫ-Ŧḯη
    Here is a direct link to webOS Doc for all carriers
    http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/...octor_Versions
    P.S. if i have helped you and you are thankful please hit the thanks button to the right---->
  20. #80  
    Quote Originally Posted by NickDG View Post
    ... They have already pushed webOS on the large corporation I work for, and that was only a month or so after the aquisition.
    Waitaminnit. That just can't be. A few posts back, we were informed about the total lack of clout by the Palm division. Are you sure of this?


    Quote Originally Posted by NickDG View Post
    Just my opinion. But it seems like a good strategy since the Pre 2 is a very capable phone that is perfect for business use. It sure beats the crap out of the Blackberry Torch which is supposed to be their flagship device. If a company had to choose between the Pre 2 and the Blackberry Curve for their business, with the lower cost because the lack of the need for a BES server, they will choose the Pre 2. As much as iPhones are being used in corporations, Blackberries are still being used more, and I equate that to the need for a keyboard. Android's business use is still up in the air IMO, and with most Android phones lacking a keyboard this really makes the Pre 2 a better choice.
    Sarcasm mode off now.

    I agree with much of this except for one thing. HP won't succeed in the enterprise by simply offering a phone that doesn't "need" BES. Fact is, lots of BB owners don't use BES. It's not necessary to use the phone. What makes it necessary is to use the phone with the amount of control desired by IT departments.

    HP can't simply bypass the need for BES, they have to offer an alternative. Preferably something that avoids the licensing model followed by RIM.

    Give the enterprise a device that is secure, inexpensive, and can be centrally managed, and they will buy it.
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