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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by CGK View Post
    We are back to fairies and magic again, the pre was rejected by the market, why is the Pre 2 suddenly going to be a success when it's being released like the red-head stepchild with no marketing push and no support from the carriers?
    By pricing it low enough. Think of it being HP's Blackberry Curve. A cheap high volume device.
    Palm Vx -> Treo 600 -> Treo 700p -> Centro -> Pre (Launch Phone 06/06/09) -> AT&T Pre Plus with Sprint EVDO swap -> Samsung Epic 4G w/ Froyo
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    #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by NickDG View Post
    By pricing it low enough. Think of it being HP's Blackberry Curve. A cheap high volume device.
    Is there any indication this is actually going to happen? The Pre is currently being sold for 299 on the HP website, which is an astonishing price for such an old phone. So what is the Pre2 going to be? 400?

    Now, people are going to say "ah-ha Carrier subsidy" - whatcarriers? when? There is no indication in any of the markets I've looked at that anyone has any interested in carrying this phone beyond SFR.
  3.    #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by sketch42 View Post
    It's not even released here in the states yet... We'll talk after it's released .. If still no marketing than you know that this was just a test run of materials and equiptment , and to see how well hp and palm can work together.
    Apparently there's a good excuse for even failure to launch.
    Last edited by UntidyGuy; 11/11/2010 at 09:18 AM.
  4. #24  
    iOS gained early success because it integrated with itunes. android because it integrated with google services. wp7 will be a success as it comes to integrate with xbox and zune.

    webos might become a success when it integrates with something (maybe printers).
  5. #25  
    lol @ printersj

    Selling my Palm things: just make an offer: http://forums.webosnation.com/market...nd-offers.html
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by protofa View Post
    iOS gained early success because it integrated with itunes. android because it integrated with google services. wp7 will be a success as it comes to integrate with xbox and zune.

    webos might become a success when it integrates with something (maybe printers).
    Great point. Other platforms gained initial success because they uniquely integrated something that people can not do without. Add Blackberry for integrating push messaging (others have caught up now, but for enterprise solutions, years of great service is hard to ignore. WebOS tries to do a little of everything, but its nothing that is uniquely available only on WebOS. HP had an opportunity to make their mobile printing only possible with webOS devices, but I think they choked and thought about how that would hurt not help their printer sales.
  7.    #27  
    HP printers are already integrated with iOS devices:

    AirPrint will enable iPad, iPhone and iPod touch customers using iOS 4.2 to print wirelessly from select apps - no set up or downloads required. Customers will be able to automatically find a printer on their wireless network and print to it with one touch. HP's existing and upcoming ePrint enabled printers will be the first to support AirPrint from iOS 4.2 devices, making it easy for customers to print anytime, anywhere.
  8. #28  
    It only makes sense to put ePrinting on multiple platforms, just as it makes sense for Google to offer their services on competing platforms or to have iTunes on PCs.
  9.    #29  
    Let's just say that the HP division that makes printers probably has about 100 times more clout than the division that makes smartphones and tablets. The printer division is going to integrate their printers with whatever mobile devices that are out there and prioritize the platforms that are the most popular - as they did. If they want to attach an android tablet to their printers they will - and did.

    Printer integration, alone, will not sell webOS smartphones or any other smartphone for that matter.
    Last edited by UntidyGuy; 11/11/2010 at 09:56 AM.
  10. #30  
    The mobile phone space is very crowded at the moment. My take -

    Apple - iPhone still sells like hotcakes, but new iPhone sales (meaning a non-renewal) are less than spectacular. Pending Verizon iPhone should help fill that.

    Google - Android handsets are coming out in every increasing numbers. Strategy of providing entry level and high end handsets is a recipe for selling a lot of phones, but not for diminishing issues with splintering the platform. I expect that Android sales will level off, but not drop much.

    Microsoft - WP7 is selling well, but they haven't sacrificed substance for quick sales. Having a uniform entry specs for ideal use makes the OS work uniformly without lag across all phones. Allowing manufacturers little wiggle room to put out crap handsets will work for long term growth, which is what Microsoft is after in the first place.

    HP/Palm - WebOs is still the best way to multitask on a mobile platform (opinion based on facts and using every other phone out there. ). When you go through a buyout and the marketing nightmare of not being able to sell any new product, you cannot expect one phone to get you back on the map. I think HP's plans for WebOs mean that mobile phones will be a small player in the grand scheme of Printers/Tablets/PC's. Will there be room for WebOs? Yes, but you define success in that place differently than you would have wanted initially.

    You can't be the everything killer. That sets standards too high and you will fail. I see HP taking the Apple strategy. Provide great products and gain a cult following. HP wants WebOs to make it, and I think it will. Just not in the grand schemes Palm once had.
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  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by CGK View Post
    We are back to fairies and magic again, the pre was rejected by the market, why is the Pre 2 suddenly going to be a success when it's being released like the red-head stepchild with no marketing push and no support from the carriers?
    The Pre 2 alone wont be. But yes, the market did not accept the Pre. But we are talking about expanding the market. Remember, the GCN was rejected by the market but the GCN's hardware ended up saving Nintendo. Not by winning the hearts of current gamers, but by winning the hearts of people like my mother. Or your parents. And so on.

    Quote Originally Posted by CGK View Post
    Is there any indication this is actually going to happen? The Pre is currently being sold for 299 on the HP website, which is an astonishing price for such an old phone. So what is the Pre2 going to be? 400?

    Now, people are going to say "ah-ha Carrier subsidy" - whatcarriers? when? There is no indication in any of the markets I've looked at that anyone has any interested in carrying this phone beyond SFR.
    There is no current indication, not yet. We shall see what VZW and HP does with Pre 2. But going after non-smart phone users right now is the smartest way to make money.

    Quote Originally Posted by protofa View Post
    iOS gained early success because it integrated with itunes. android because it integrated with google services. wp7 will be a success as it comes to integrate with xbox and zune.

    webos might become a success when it integrates with something (maybe printers).
    HP WebOS can sync with Google, Facbook, and now with 2.0 developers can take advantage of this feature. But Google and Apple had a marketing scheme like nothing before it and both of those companies are huge companies with lots of money. Palm is not huge or rich. Now they are. Lets see what HP does with Palm and hope for the best.
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by NickDG View Post
    By pricing it low enough. Think of it being HP's Blackberry Curve. A cheap high volume device.
    No, No, No. You don't want to associate the word cheap and Pre in the same sentence. This is exactly what is not needed. You have had 500 plus days of cheap.
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by astraith View Post
    The Pre 2 alone wont be. But yes, the market did not accept the Pre. But we are talking about expanding the market. Remember, the GCN was rejected by the market but the GCN's hardware ended up saving Nintendo. Not by winning the hearts of current gamers, but by winning the hearts of people like my mother. Or your parents. And so on.
    And the Pre 2 is to win hearts by being stealth launched overseas with "pre-production" hardware and a WebOS 2.0 that doesn't even have all of the features they announced for 2.0?

    There is no current indication, not yet. We shall see what VZW and HP does with Pre 2. But going after non-smart phone users right now is the smartest way to make money.
    How are they going after anybody? Again, they just barely launched their new handset overseas only with a press release. We're coming up on one month since they launched the phone, yet developers cannot buy it and the 2.0 SDK is still beta. Advertising is non-existent, and the second and third largest US carriers just EOLed their flagship. This is "going after" who exactly?

    HP WebOS can sync with Google, Facbook, and now with 2.0 developers can take advantage of this feature. But Google and Apple had a marketing scheme like nothing before it and both of those companies are huge companies with lots of money. Palm is not huge or rich. Now they are. Lets see what HP does with Palm and hope for the best.
    You probably could have made the same point of this entire post with nothing but the last sentence. It sums up what it is like to be a fan of this platform right now: Let's hope for the best.
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by UntidyGuy View Post
    Let's just say that the HP division that makes printers probably has about 100 times more clout than the division that makes smartphones and tablets. The printer division is going to integrate their printers with whatever mobile devices that are out there and prioritize the platforms that are the most popular - as they did. If they want to attach an android tablet to their printers they will - and did.

    Printer integration, alone, will not sell webOS smartphones or any other smartphone for that matter.
    It makes sense sure.

    But it just means they can't turn around and keep talking about this being a strength for webOS devices. It isn't if they make every mobile platform compatible.

    Again, just what can HP offer for webOS users that is unique and compelling? MS, apple, and google each can. Stacks and visual multitasking isn't enough when there's not much there to stack.. The core apps of webOS are still embarrassingly bare bones. The SDK is still far from finished.
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    And the Pre 2 is to win hearts by being stealth launched overseas with "pre-production" hardware and a WebOS 2.0 that doesn't even have all of the features they announced for 2.0?



    How are they going after anybody? Again, they just barely launched their new handset overseas only with a press release. We're coming up on one month since they launched the phone, yet developers cannot buy it and the 2.0 SDK is still beta. Advertising is non-existent, and the second and third largest US carriers just EOLed their flagship. This is "going after" who exactly?



    You probably could have made the same point of this entire post with nothing but the last sentence. It sums up what it is like to be a fan of this platform right now: Let's hope for the best.
    It's one of the ways -- and the easiest way -- for HP to make WebOS something. Are you trying to say they can't go after new customers, or that they be better off taking on Apple (again)? I am not claiming to know what HP is doing, but just saying it's possible for WebOS to be relevant in the smart phone market. I can't talk what they did in France because I don't live in France. And since I don't see Engadget or even PreCentral reporting the info you just told me, I would assume most of America doesn't even know WebOS 2.0 is in france let alone what it's doing. You can keep on poking fun at us who do wait and see what HP will do with WebOS, but it won't stop us and it won't stop HP -- whatever their plan is. But I don't mind waiting till next year because I can't get a new phone till next year, so I might as well wait and see what they will do. Can you tell me their next phone wont be awesome? Show me your proof.

    Anyway, if you don't think WebOS does not have a chance -- your wrong. They have a chance to make money and sell phones. They don't have a chance to take on Apple or Microsoft, and if thats what HP is going to do then they will fail. Of course, it all depends on what HP plans to do. If their plan is to just make phones ... they wont be successful. If their plan is to be behind Apple, Microsoft, Google, RIM -- they will do just that and wont make a lot of money. However, if they plan on trying to expand to new smart phone customers -- they have a chance. It's really their only option that could lead to being successful. And, I remember I was one of the only ppl who thought Nintendo Wii could be successful. I remember reading how the Wii will fail. You know what? It was so successful that both MS and Sony are trying to get their customers.

    Has HP shown they are going to do this, or are they doing a good job? No, they haven't shown their plans yet -- and no, they aren't doing a good job. I didn't say they will be successful, just they have a chance. That implies failure is possible.
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by sinsin07 View Post
    No, No, No. You don't want to associate the word cheap and Pre in the same sentence. This is exactly what is not needed. You have had 500 plus days of cheap.
    It's already associated being cheap. Good luck on transforming the Palm brand into a premium brand.

    And being cheap alone isn't a ticket for great sales. There's not really a cheap end of the smartphone market when the ceiling is 199 basically. After a few months, premium phones get reduced in price filling that role. And targeting people who've never owned a smartphone with a crappy low end smartphone is dumb. They won't have a good experience and it diminishes your brand.
    Last edited by cardfan; 11/11/2010 at 12:36 PM.
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by CGK View Post
    Is there any indication this is actually going to happen? The Pre is currently being sold for 299 on the HP website, which is an astonishing price for such an old phone. So what is the Pre2 going to be? 400?

    Now, people are going to say "ah-ha Carrier subsidy" - whatcarriers? when? There is no indication in any of the markets I've looked at that anyone has any interested in carrying this phone beyond SFR.
    The internals of the Pre 2 are very similar to the original minus the new CPU/GPU and memory. This makes it much cheaper to manufacture. The original Pre is being sold here in the states for as low at $49 on contract. I don't see why Palm can't sell the Pre 2 for $99 on contract right out of the gate.

    Quote Originally Posted by sinsin07 View Post
    No, No, No. You don't want to associate the word cheap and Pre in the same sentence. This is exactly what is not needed. You have had 500 plus days of cheap.
    Since Palm did not upgrade the Pre to compete with the current crop of top tier smartphones, it is clear they are positioning the phone as a low to medium model in their product line, with the Pixi still being their entry level phone. With HP having a large enterprise presence, it seems clear to me they are going to push the Pre 2 as a Blackberry Curve replacement for current corporations they are doing business with. They have already pushed webOS on the large corporation I work for, and that was only a month or so after the aquisition.

    The Pre hasn't been as successful for Palm as planned. They are going to need a new model to fill the current hole for a top tier webOS smartphone. My guess is we will see a new model with a new name for their flagship, which positions the Pre as a middle device.

    Just my opinion. But it seems like a good strategy since the Pre 2 is a very capable phone that is perfect for business use. It sure beats the crap out of the Blackberry Torch which is supposed to be their flagship device. If a company had to choose between the Pre 2 and the Blackberry Curve for their business, with the lower cost because the lack of the need for a BES server, they will choose the Pre 2. As much as iPhones are being used in corporations, Blackberries are still being used more, and I equate that to the need for a keyboard. Android's business use is still up in the air IMO, and with most Android phones lacking a keyboard this really makes the Pre 2 a better choice.
    Palm Vx -> Treo 600 -> Treo 700p -> Centro -> Pre (Launch Phone 06/06/09) -> AT&T Pre Plus with Sprint EVDO swap -> Samsung Epic 4G w/ Froyo
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by astraith View Post
    It's one of the ways -- and the easiest way -- for HP to make WebOS something. Are you trying to say they can't go after new customers, or that they be better off taking on Apple (again)? I am not claiming to know what HP is doing, but just saying it's possible for WebOS to be relevant in the smart phone market. I can't talk what they did in France because I don't live in France. And since I don't see Engadget or even PreCentral reporting the info you just told me, I would assume most of America doesn't even know WebOS 2.0 is in france let alone what it's doing. You can keep on poking fun at us who do wait and see what HP will do with WebOS, but it won't stop us and it won't stop HP -- whatever their plan is. But I don't mind waiting till next year because I can't get a new phone till next year, so I might as well wait and see what they will do. Can you tell me their next phone wont be awesome? Show me your proof.
    Nice mash-up of arguments. But if I can click Undo, I'm just going to go ahead and restore them to their original states. The two arguments - one of which I was making in this thread, the other I was not - are that:

    1) If HP wants to go after "new customers", the Palm Pre 2 and its subsequently embarrassing and quiet launch stand little chance of making that happen,
    2) If HP wants to go after "new customers", its best and only chance is with a truly new slate of WebOS products.

    I don't care about stopping HP or anyone who wants to wait until the end of time for them to get it together. The market starts and stops these things, not you or I. As of now...they're stopped.

    Anyway, if you don't think WebOS does not have a chance -- your wrong. They have a chance to make money and sell phones. They don't have a chance to take on Apple or Microsoft, and if thats what HP is going to do then they will fail. Of course, it all depends on what HP plans to do. If their plan is to just make phones ... they wont be successful. If their plan is to be behind Apple, Microsoft, Google, RIM -- they will do just that and wont make a lot of money. However, if they plan on trying to expand to new smart phone customers -- they have a chance.
    A chance to sell some phones and make some money? Sounds kinda circular.

    It's really their only option that could lead to being successful. And, I remember I was one of the only ppl who thought Nintendo Wii could be successful. I remember reading how the Wii will fail. You know what? It was so successful that both MS and Sony are trying to get their customers.

    Has HP shown they are going to do this, or are they doing a good job? No, they haven't shown their plans yet -- and no, they aren't doing a good job. I didn't say they will be successful, just they have a chance. That implies failure is possible.
    With all due respect, who do you think isn't targeting "new smart phone customers? This is an industry in the midst of exponential growth. The Kin tried to target new smartphone customers. So did the Pre. So does the Blackberry Torch. So did the Blackberry Storm, for that matter. Put 'em all together, and you get a whole lotta failure. On the other hand, so did the iPhone and so did the Droid brand. They're blockbuster successes. So just the act of "targeting new smartphone customers" isn't enough to increase or decrease your chances of failure.

    I would argue that you need to release the superior product that makes customers target you.
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by NickDG View Post
    The internals of the Pre 2 are very similar to the original minus the new CPU/GPU and memory. This makes it much cheaper to manufacture. The original Pre is being sold here in the states for as low at $49 on contract. I don't see why Palm can't sell the Pre 2 for $99 on contract right out of the gate.
    Well, when you race to the bottom in pricing, you tend to get there. Samsung can afford to put out low end junk like the Transform and Intercept on Sprint because their bread and butter are $199 Galaxy S handsets selling well across every carrier and every territory. Palm has nothing in that high-end strata, so they might wanna get established there before trying to flood the low end. That is, unless they've set their guns on Kyocera and Huawei as their competition instead of Apple, Motorola, and Samsung.

    Since Palm did not upgrade the Pre to compete with the current crop of top tier smartphones, it is clear they are positioning the phone as a low to medium model in their product line, with the Pixi still being their entry level phone.
    In case you haven't noticed, when the Pre was dropped to "entry level" pricing, it still didn't take off. Same with the Pixi. I can't find either for any carrier in Amazon's top 50 bestselling phones. The HTC Hero and Samsung Moment - one time top-tier phones for Sprint, are still in the top 15 at reduced pricing even though their successors have arrived. That's what success looks like.

    With HP having a large enterprise presence, it seems clear to me they are going to push the Pre 2 as a Blackberry Curve replacement for current corporations they are doing business with. They have already pushed webOS on the large corporation I work for, and that was only a month or so after the aquisition.
    They don't seem to be pushing the Pre 2 on anyone, TBH.

    The Pre hasn't been as successful for Palm as planned. They are going to need a new model to fill the current hole for a top tier webOS smartphone. My guess is we will see a new model with a new name for their flagship, which positions the Pre as a middle device.

    Just my opinion. But it seems like a good strategy since the Pre 2 is a very capable phone that is perfect for business use. It sure beats the crap out of the Blackberry Torch which is supposed to be their flagship device. If a company had to choose between the Pre 2 and the Blackberry Curve for their business, with the lower cost because the lack of the need for a BES server, they will choose the Pre 2. As much as iPhones are being used in corporations, Blackberries are still being used more, and I equate that to the need for a keyboard. Android's business use is still up in the air IMO, and with most Android phones lacking a keyboard this really makes the Pre 2 a better choice.
    You assume the Pre 2 is the only choice in this scenario. Dell thought otherwise and will be pushing their Venue Pro as a Blackberry replacement just as hard as HP ostensibly would, just as they are replacing every Blackberry they currently use. What happens when Microsoft decides to play the leverage game by giving away WP7 handsets to employees of other companies too? Will RIM sit idly by and do nothing to stop this? Apple has no designs on Enterprise? Google either? This arena will be just as competitive, if not moreso than the consumer space.
  20. #40  
    What business in their right mind would choose HP/Palm when they have no idea what the immediate future is for that platform? It's too limited as well. Employees wouldn't like it as studies show noone is thinking of buying a webOS device.

    Many would see moving from RIM to Palm a downgrade...not exactly an upgrade.
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