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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by Odd-Ball View Post
    The form factor didn't sell...along with the abysmal ad campaign.
    The Pre or Pre 2? We don't have the Pre 2, do we don't know how they will advertise it yet.

    You're kidding, right? Try looking at an image, whatever, in low resolution on a small screen then look at it in higher resolution on that same screen. You're grasping here, trying to justify the lack of screen res as some kind of un-necessary gimmick.
    Smaller the screen the better the image. Look at a small 720p HDTV (20 inch) and compare it to a full 1080p 47 inch. A lot of the times (I admit, not always) the 720p looks just as good as the larger 1080p. Same with the Pre. Will it make a difference? Yes, of course, but it won't be worth the price it would add. Screen res is not a gimmick but on smaller screen I don't see the reason to pay the extra penny for it. Maybe it's just me, but I never said it's your opinion.

    Yep, they have it. The fact you didn't ask about it indicates you didn't source the competition. Is it a deal breaker for me? Of course not. But, it's you harping on one insignificant facet of what is otherwise a newer, much more highly functional overall package from the Pre, the EVO and the entire Android lineup in this case.
    Thats my point. I don't even care if it has a compass I didn't even know. I get emails about WebOS, EVO, iPhone every day. I subscribe to Google News Alerts. I read, daily, all the news about those phones (well, not EVO anymore, but Android in general). But the fact that I would have to LOOK it up tells me I don't care about a compass being in the phone. Again, sure, it's my opinion.

    Shall I list the functionality and other features, which the vast majority consider essential or must have, that the Pre doesn't?
    I would actually like that list, and I believe the OP would too. He was asking why the Pre 2 is not as good as DRIOD X. So far, all we got is larger screen, better res, compass. So why is the Pre 2 not as good as the others? (I do know about the PUSH email that Blackberry has, considering I actually have a Curve myself).

    Pure speculation at this point. HP hasn't shown any indication they care about the Pre. They do care about WebOS though and that seems to be it for the moment.
    Thats the point of what I replied to you. CES 2011 will either prove your right, apparently, since you believe HP doesn't care about Palm's hardware. Or it will prove your wrong. If they don't show the form factors we know they are making, or they show them and they are found lacking -- like, apparently, the Pre 2 does -- then your proven correct. If they show multiple form factors, all with duel processors, 4G (WiMAX and LTE), big and small screens, full keyboards and no keyboard phones, then your proven incorrect. I neither agreed nor disagreed with your comment and technically, I still am not. Just making a point that ... yes, we need to all look towards CES 2011 to see if HP cares about Palm's hardware (I don't say Pre because I am not sure if they are keeping that brand name, they might choose to rename it -- which I wouldn't care either way).

    So now you're attempting to rate the Pre somewhere in a class away from the iphone and Android lineup? Why? Why set the bar lower? Maybe it's because HP doesn't care enough about the handset itself to outfit it with a decent set of hardware so you have to go after a supposedly lesser handset?
    I have said this for a long time. If you pit the original Pre against the iPhone -- which they did -- it wouldn't succeed. Why? Because the iPhone is a different kind of phone. The Pre -- if you actually go back and listen to how they described it in 2009 -- was designed to replaced the need to have a Blackberry and an iPhone, which many ppl did. BB as their business phone and iPhone for their personal life (of course, now, the iPhone IS a good business phone). They even said exactly that, if you go back and read/listen to all the interviews. Same with the Pre 2. The Pre 2 is amazing compared to the Blackberry Torch. WebOS is leagues ahead of BB OS 6.0. Sure, BB has PUSH email, but I don't see many other enhancements BB has compared to the Pre. However, the Pre 2's keyboard looks to be another soar spot. They really need a larger keyboard (although I actually liked the Pre keyboard, and the Pixi, but thats just me).

    EDIT: Also, why does HP have to create only Super Phones? Why can't they create smaller, cheaper, entry level smartphones -- like the Pre 2 and Pixi -- and make a "Pre HD" down the road, that has everything you want? Why only cater to one group of people?

    By your comment you assume hardware means nothing, since that's what you stated. We need to be clear here as this is important as it indicates Pre fans don't care about how the hardware. As long as they can get that pesky dialer or camera app opened in 20 seconds or less it's ok..WebOS is so gosh darn pretty to look at!
    When did I say hardware doesn't matter? It does. The Pre didn't sell well, one reason, because of it's hardware. Sprint employees would not recommend a Pre to you because it gives them so many problems with getting broken. The keyboard was a deal breaker for many Blackberry fans, even if they wanted a Pre. And, apparently, many people don't want the Pre 2 because the hardware doesn't compare.

    But I look at the iPhone, and it had a 1GHz processor. It has 512mb ram. And thats what the Pre 2 has. Sure, the res is better, the screen is bigger. But HP has not actually said they aren't providing that, in fact haven't they actually said (of course, over Twitter) that they are making multiple form factors? Nothing official, but since they haven't shown us either way it's kinda premature to say they don't care about Palm's hardware. The Pre 2, it seems to me, is a phone that is being released maybe to make money, maybe to smooth over fans? Who knows what their thought process was on it. And you can't say people don't want the Pre 2 -- the Sprint Rep @ Dan@sprint.com (I also emailed and she called me) said that they were really surprised that so many people have written in about the Pre 2 not being released and that Sprint IS paying attention. The fact that so many people are writing in -- and just look at the topics here -- proves people DO LIKE the smaller screen. So why should they NOT release it? Maybe the timing was off, but it's quite possible that Palm DOESN'T have a working "superphone" yet that HP wants to show off. Maybe they want to give it two more months of tweaking before showing it off to the world. The iPhone didn't take 5 months to make. It tooks 2-3 years to design and go through changes. Palm is a good software company but when it comes to hardware, they don't seem to be the best. I bet HP walked in, saw what the c40 was (whatever it was) and said, "Not good enough. Make it better. Here's some idea's." And heck, how do we know? We haven't even seen what HP is doing for next year. I could be wrong, sure, but then again so could you.

    I had the Pre, I liked it, even with it's glaring faults. It has potential to be the BEST mobile O/S out there but it's paired with a company (Palm), that seems intent on fits and stops, spurts of genius tinged with bouts of stupid marketing, design flaws and other failures.
    So why do you think that Palm actually has an iPhone like device ready to be seen and sold? HP hasn't owned Palm for a year. Didn't it take place in June or July? Again, CES 2011. Lets see what happens.

    I'll say it again: HP doesn't really show any indication they care about the Pre as a handset but they do care about the O/S. Can you say tablet time?
    I completely agree that HP hasn't shown any indication they don't care about Palm's hardware. Yet I also agree they haven't not shown us that. Lets wait and let them tell us what they think. At some point, it will be apparent.

    And I too believe the WebOS platform is by far one of the best mobile OS's out there. It's not perfect, I give you that. But it allows you to work more freely and it has more of a flow. They can add many features to it, and I believe WebOS 2.0 shows that they are clearly evolving WebOS into a better OS.

    EDIT: Now that I think about it, doesn't the Pre have PUSH email? I think I was confusing info from my friend who said it doesn't with actual info. I do apologize if I was incorrect about that feature not being in WebOS.
    Last edited by astraith; 10/30/2010 at 09:55 PM.
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mattykinsx View Post
    How about the fact that all of those phones have been out for 6 months by the time the Pre 2 will be released?

    Do you know what 6 months is when it comes to technology age? Especially mobile technology?
    In about two months a whole slew of next generation phones will be announced and subsequently released....while Hpalm is releasing their product to catch up with the last generation.

    Really, it's not that hard to understand at all.
    Really?? Last I checked M$ released 10 devices about 4 WEEKS AGO that had, let's see...Oh yeah, 1ghz cpus, 512mb of RAM, and 16gb of storage.

    Hmm...shame M$ released all those 'outdated' phones like that. Oh and if you average the size of all the screens, it comes to 3.85", not the ******** size 'droids have.

    As for form factor, not only did RIM just release a portrait slider, Motorola is bringing on out as well. Add to the fact BB's are still dominating the market with 500mhz cpus and 2.4" screens seems to fly on the face of you "Stupi-screen" theories as well.
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by cobrakon View Post
    Really?? Last I checked M$ released 10 devices about 4 WEEKS AGO that had, let's see...Oh yeah, 1ghz cpus, 512mb of RAM, and 16gb of storage.

    Hmm...shame M$ released all those 'outdated' phones like that. Oh and if you average the size of all the screens, it comes to 3.85", not the ******** size 'droids have.
    The ram, CPU, and flash memory are not the outdated specs. The screens, imaging, video capabilities, and lack of compass are the outdated specs. And people will look at the screen before they consider any other aspect of the device.

    As for form factor, not only did RIM just release a portrait slider, Motorola is bringing on out as well. Add to the fact BB's are still dominating the market with 500mhz cpus and 2.4" screens seems to fly on the face of you "Stupi-screen" theories as well.
    RIM's refreshes are losing marketshare, and their users are more likely than ever to defect to Apple and Android according to recent polls. The Torch was mocked across the industry, and its display was a major part of that. As for Motorola, they are releasing the Droid Pro after THREE big screen devices that sold well. Palm has yet to get one big screen market, and all of its portfolio has sold comparatively poorly.
  4. #24  
    Quite frankly, with the capabilities of the Palm Pre 2 running HP webOS 2.0 that has already been demonstrated, the Palm Pre 2 is going to be very competitive with the other high-end devices on Verizon such as the Droid/Fascinate/BB versions as long as it is released before december.



    The only true deficiency that I view the Palm Pre 2 + webOS 2.0 as having is lack of high-profile apps, which is really a double pronged users and apps issue. However, the deficiency is something I think a strong marketing campaign and some strategic dev partnerships (some of which we are seeing with Quick Office) can alleviate.

    Color me optimistic, but I think Palm Pre 2 has a fighting chance of a much stronger showing on Verizon this time around.

    At the very least, it should be tremendously appealing to "enterprise consumers" that likely favor high-productivity/mobility/enterprise-class-security to pocket-bulging-screen-sizes/HD-video-capture/TV-output.
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by DumbPreCommenter View Post
    Quite frankly, with the capabilities of the Palm Pre 2 running HP webOS 2.0 that has already been demonstrated, the Palm Pre 2 is going to be very competitive with the other high-end devices on Verizon such as the Droid/Fascinate/BB versions as long as it is released before december.



    The only true deficiency that I view the Palm Pre 2 + webOS 2.0 as having is lack of high-profile apps, which is really a double pronged users and apps issue. However, the deficiency is something I think a strong marketing campaign and some strategic dev partnerships (some of which we are seeing with Quick Office) can alleviate.

    Color me optimistic, but I think Palm Pre 2 has a fighting chance of a much stronger showing on Verizon this time around.

    At the very least, it should be tremendously appealing to "enterprise consumers" that likely favor high-productivity/mobility/enterprise-class-security to pocket-bulging-screen-sizes/HD-video-capture/TV-output.
    Serious question: Do you think users on Verizon passed the first time around on the Pre Plus because it wasn't fast enough or didn't have Stacks or Just Type?
  6. #26  
    Unless you say specifically, I don't see how your question relates to anything I said.
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    Fixed focus camera
    No 720p video recording
    Great screen resolution...for two years ago
    Tiny screen
    No compass

    Sorry, but the hardware on those devices is objectively better.
    +1 ^^^^^^^

    Sorry OP but the Pre2 is a very minor spec bump. I'm still waiting for the real device. Hopefully it shows up in January at CES in Vegas.
    Achill3s' Palm Pre: Modded and patched to death!!
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    Serious question: Do you think users on Verizon passed the first time around on the Pre Plus because it wasn't fast enough or didn't have Stacks or Just Type?
    No, it was because the reps wouldn't sell them one

    http://forums.precentral.net/palm-pr...xperience.html

  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by DumbPreCommenter View Post
    However, the deficiency is something I think a strong marketing campaign and some strategic dev partnerships (some of which we are seeing with Quick Office) can alleviate.
    Didn't the Pre launch with a backdrop full of "strategic dev partnerships"? It didn't seem to help then. Why do you think it will help now?
    Quote Originally Posted by DumbPreCommenter View Post
    Color me optimistic, but I think Palm Pre 2 has a fighting chance of a much stronger showing on Verizon this time around.
    Again, why? Has Verizon changed? Are they going to stop pushing Android and start pushing the Pre 2 this time around? I ask because many people claim this is the reason the Pre 2 didn't sell well on Verizon. Actually, it didn't sell well on any carrier to my knowledge, but somehow the focus tends to be on Verizon. So what's going to be different this time around?
    Quote Originally Posted by DumbPreCommenter View Post
    At the very least, it should be tremendously appealing to "enterprise consumers" that likely favor high-productivity/mobility/enterprise-class-security to pocket-bulging-screen-sizes/HD-video-capture/TV-output.
    With hardly any enterprise-level apps and almost zero enterprise adoption, I don't see the logic in this statement. Is Joe Business User going to open 50 social networking clients and 2 games? Where is the business appeal in the current state of webOS? Also, on the "pocket-bulging" thing; BBs are some of the most "pocket-bulging" mobile devices out there. This has NOT prevented major adoption at the enterprise level.
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by taharka View Post
    Where is the business appeal in the current state of webOS? Also, on the "pocket-bulging" thing; BBs are some of the most "pocket-bulging" mobile devices out there. This has NOT prevented major adoption at the enterprise level.
    Hmm....

    -Multitasking, which knock TMC all you like ( occurs 90% of time due to poorly built apps and starting 3D games) just doesn't happen when running the stock apps and for a business user, will not have fart apps, games, and social networking filling their phone. iOS and Android just can't keep up. (I wish there was a way for me to wear a spy cam into my meetings and capture the frustration on the faces of the iOS and Android users as I beat them to needed info every time. It's priceless and really makes my day.)
    -Synergy perhaps? MANY professional people network and interact through LinkedIn (and more through FB these days) so having access to those contacts automatically is a winner.
    -EAS push email as fast (or faster in many cases) than BES\BIS email.
    -Multiple Exchange accounts synced flawlessly (which iOS couldn't do until recently and why jebusPhone was no-fly in my F500 organization.)

    And that's just to start so...
  11. #31  
    The original Pre release was less than ideal for numerous reasons: failed marketing, incomplete SDK (btw, the SDK is still incomplete), questionable build/design issues (curved plastics with holes and possible flaw sites that are consistently stressed while sliding it open is, at best, a risky design). I think the Pre was initially marginally successful, but sales dwindled rapidly.

    The verizon release was complicated by the big Droid push (remember the iDon't commercials). Note also that Droid is inherently a Verizon branded product line from HTC and Motorola, so for Palm to be competing for mindshare at that same time was tough.

    The last point I made is to indicate that HD recording and hardware this and seems to be widely perceived as minor spec. bumps are not important to every consumer group (and I still assert that they are typical point upgrades)

    WebOS 2.0 includes VPN which gives enterprise level security and secured access to corporate assets. This gives it the potential for increased enterprise adoption.

    It is unlikely that there will be any instant success or broad-base adoptions or any quick turnaround, but the goal is likely place themselves in a position better succeed over time.

    So... better build, more capable hardware, leaner and more refined OS, sturdier build, high-productivity interface, true multitasking... read up about it and make your own inferences/analyses. I doubt that any indepth reasoning will result in the sharp conclusions you seem to be making.


    Quote Originally Posted by taharka View Post
    Didn't the Pre launch with a backdrop full of "strategic dev partnerships"? It didn't seem to help then. Why do you think it will help now?
    Again, why? Has Verizon changed? Are they going to stop pushing Android and start pushing the Pre 2 this time around? I ask because many people claim this is the reason the Pre 2 didn't sell well on Verizon. Actually, it didn't sell well on any carrier to my knowledge, but somehow the focus tends to be on Verizon. So what's going to be different this time around?
    With hardly any enterprise-level apps and almost zero enterprise adoption, I don't see the logic in this statement. Is Joe Business User going to open 50 social networking clients and 2 games? Where is the business appeal in the current state of webOS? Also, on the "pocket-bulging" thing; BBs are some of the most "pocket-bulging" mobile devices out there. This has NOT prevented major adoption at the enterprise level.
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by cobrakon View Post
    Hmm....

    -Multitasking, which knock TMC all you like ( occurs 90% of time due to poorly built apps and starting 3D games) just doesn't happen when running the stock apps and for a business user, will not have fart apps, games, and social networking filling their phone. iOS and Android just can't keep up. (I wish there was a way for me to wear a spy cam into my meetings and capture the frustration on the faces of the iOS and Android users as I beat them to needed info every time. It's priceless and really makes my day.)
    -Synergy perhaps? MANY professional people network and interact through LinkedIn (and more through FB these days) so having access to those contacts automatically is a winner.
    -EAS push email as fast (or faster in many cases) than BES\BIS email.
    -Multiple Exchange accounts synced flawlessly (which iOS couldn't do until recently and why jebusPhone was no-fly in my F500 organization.)

    And that's just to start so...
    All of those things have existed on the Pre from day one (Synergy and all that exist on other platforms as well by the way; heck when I get a call on my Evo, rather than just a picture, I get the caller's picture along with their current FB status right there on the screen above the answer button). So why haven't business started using the device? None of those features will be "new" in the Pre 2 or webOS v2.x, yet you claim that somehow, after almost 2 years of the enterprise ignoring webOS (to the point that Palm had to be purchased), they will suddenly wake up and realize how great this is? Really? Why now? (I'm not saying it is impossible; I'm really asking; why now?)

    Despite all these claims of being ready for business, outside of my family members, I've seen exactly ONE Pre out in the wild. How can a system be so perfect for business and have such a low number of business users? On my current contract (job contract) we are building a brand new architecture for our internal applications that will support both standard and mobile devices. For the mobile portion, Android, iOS and BBOS are all part of the plan. webOS is not even being considered because not a single employee, operator or contractor is using a webOS device. Not one! We'll consider it if people start using it of course, but right now there are none.
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by DumbPreCommenter View Post
    The original Pre release was less than ideal for numerous reasons: failed marketing, incomplete SDK (btw, the SDK is still incomplete), questionable build/design issues (curved plastics with holes and possible flaw sites that are consistently stressed while sliding it open is, at best, a risky design). I think the Pre was initially marginally successful, but sales dwindled rapidly.

    The verizon release was complicated by the big Droid push (remember the iDon't commercials). Note also that Droid is inherently a Verizon branded product line from HTC and Motorola, so for Palm to be competing for mindshare at that same time was tough.

    The last point I made is to indicate that HD recording and hardware this and seems to be widely perceived as minor spec. bumps are not important to every consumer group (and I still assert that they are typical point upgrades)

    WebOS 2.0 includes VPN which gives enterprise level security and secured access to corporate assets. This gives it the potential for increased enterprise adoption.

    It is unlikely that there will be any instant success or broad-base adoptions or any quick turnaround, but the goal is likely place themselves in a position better succeed over time.

    So... better build, more capable hardware, leaner and more refined OS, sturdier build, high-productivity interface, true multitasking... read up about it and make your own inferences/analyses. I doubt that any indepth reasoning will result in the sharp conclusions you seem to be making.
    Oh I've been keeping up with it. My "sharp conclusions" (actually they were mostly "questions" not conclusions) are from over a year of personal use (day one adopter here) and from what I've seen (or haven't seen) in my professional and personal dealings. Verizon is "still" pushing their Droid line. So my question still remains: What is going to be different now that will cause Verizon to push the Pre 2 significantly more than they did with the Pre Plus?

    By the way, "indepth reasoning" should allow one to get passed the "true multitasking" card by now. It's been shown over and over that consumers don't care. They can eiher multitask or they cannot. The "true" part is only considered by us tech-heads. Even the results of a poll here on p|c suggests that most people here hardly keep any apps open. Palm may have done a poor job marketing the Pre but they did a pretty good job at convincing the diehards that prepending "true" to the term somehow makes it more valid in webOS. They haven't convinced the people that matters however (i.e. consumers, the fat middle, the enterprise). The market sees that pretty much all mobile OSes multitasks and it's good enough for them (yes, even the iOS way of doing it is good enough for iOS users).
  14. xtn
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    #34  
    I have not seen anyone state whether or not the webOS 2.0 user interface has been rewritten to fully utilize the GPU. Does anyone here know?

    If it has not, then keeping the same resolution is the only smart play. This is something to think about for those saying they want a larger, higher resolution screen. Nearly quadrupling the resolution while requiring even a doubly fast CPU to figure out how to draw all the pixels thirty times a second is asking for trouble.
  15. #35  
    This discussion is silly insofar as it focuses on facts that will be changed in a few months (or even weeks).

    Obviously the Pre 2 is just the fixed Pre. It's form factor will not satisfy nearly everybody and it certainly can't cover the market. I'm sure H/Palm knows that too.
    I'm sure Palm would have loved to launch a range of devices last summer and I assume that the Pre 2 was originally planned for a June/July release (roughly 1 year after Sprint launch of the Pre.)

    But Palm was in real danger of running out money before they could get to a sustainable market share. That's why they made that deal with HP. They couldn't launch a new phone then for financial and strategic reasons.

    Designing, developing, producing and certifying phones takes time. That can't be done properly in a couple of months - even without taking carrier negotiations in account.

    So at this point HPalm simply has a choice of either launching the device that was already in the pipeline or not launching anything.

    No doubt a range of devices is under heavy development (some of them probably even still based on Palm designs they simply couldn't execute on). We'll probably see most of them announced at CES.

    Meanwhile it makes no sense to keep selling the Pre when you have the Pre 2 ready to launch. Why wouldn't they want to keep in business until the 2011 stuff can be launched? There's xmas business coming and these are fine sellable phones to the many that like the form factor and couldn't care less about front facing cameras.

    Most of us are here because we think that webos is the leading platform today - and the Pre 2 looks like it might at last be the solid hardware to go with that.

    HPalm had to launch something to keep going.

    Is the the Pre 2 enough to compete in 2011? Of course not. Not by itself. But I bet ,it will still sell besides the 3.5 slider and the 3.8-4 slab and/or whatever else HPalm will launch in the next couple of quarters.

    Why don't they announce more? For the same reason all the others also hold back: To have WOW! announcements at CES, instead of trickling out news that gets swamped in the daily news barrage. But also because they no doubt have such agreements with carriers. Announcing stuff that arrives in 2-3 months can hurt business of todays partners.
    You do a leak here and there to keep rumors around, that keeps the buzz going.

    The Pre 2 is way better than nothing, which at this point in time obviously was the only alternative. Getting webos going with a fixed Pre and version 2 into the xmas season makes sense. Why would they want to stay with the return rates of the original Pre if they have this available? Some percentage of customers doesn't care about front facing cameras and compass. They love the compactness of the Pre form factor and the screen is big enough for the occasional browsing session and game.

    Many others will want more and that's fine and quite natural. It's just that they have to wait a bit more so those new models can get out of the pipeline (design, development, certification, etc...).

    If you can't wait for that and can live with IOS, Android, BB, M or WP7 - that's OK. There's plenty of competition and that's good for all of us (except for any wannabe monopolist manufacturers ;-) ).

    I get why some people like the idea of a front facing camera for video telephony. Especially nice for parents away from their kids.
    I get why some people love bigger-is-better screens - especially when you surf and watch video a lot.

    But neither is of universal interest. Video telephony has been available in Europe for at least half a decade. Carriers have tried to push it to grow demand for the 3G networks they built. Yet customers have mostly ignored that feature. In fact texting has grown faster than even voice-only telephony.

    Big screens come at a price. Not only does it increase costs (and therefore prices), even more importantly it adds weight, size and power demands - all clearly drawbacks.
    If you wear your phone on your belt or in a bag - than that might be acceptable. For those of us who like to slip it into a regular jeans pocket size is an issue and 4" screens way too big.
    Screen resolution is mostly a matter of costs and a higher resolution is almost always better. At the least your text gets to be sharper - but this suffers from diminishing returns and the sharpness of the Pre screen is already very good.

    In short all the wishful thinking about what HPalm should have release ignore the fact that Palm first didn't have the resources and then HPalm didn't have the time yet.
    A quarter might seem like ages in this age and when you're waiting for the next great geekphone. But it's not that much time when you're busy reorganizing a company, deal with CEO change, have to research market impact of WP7, consider IPhone evolution, have plans for a tablet at the same time and simply have to go through a lengthy process of testing ideals and materials, consider designs, develop that into a prototype, test and refine, certify, negotiate with carriers, consider their demands and restrictions and prepare appropriate marketing campaigns.

    Sure - I would like the platform I invested in to grow faster. But realistically, given what was there - it couldn't. Meanwhile my Preware-enhanced OC Palm (still my first BTW, no oreo, no cracks) does OK for now and I get to enjoy todays best (IMHO) mobile OS.
    The UI is the best available, speed is fine, battery life borderline but Touchstone makes it bearable (and Touchstone charging still beats everything out there). There's more high quality games available already than I have time to play with and I use my laptop for editing documents.

    Finally the Pre 2 is not meant for you or me. Unless your old Pre(+) falls apart or you have money to burn it doesn't offer that much to any of us here to throw away our Pres and pay several hundred bucks to get this instead of waiting a few more months to get one model of the next generation.
    It's meant for new customers. That percentage of the xmas buying crowd who will like the form factor and love the OS. This is a fast growing market - even clinging to a small percentage means a lot of sales and keeps the app market growing. If you were a salesperson trying to sell a webos pone would you rather try to sell a
    a) Pre 2
    b) Pre(+)
    c) Nothing (the only other alternative at this point)
    (I'm making the assumption that the Pre2 will have return rates within industry norms, good performace and slightly improved - survives a regular day - battery life)

    I believe that these are the realistic choices and that HPalm simply made the best decision availabe and pushed out what they could while preparing for Q1 2011.

    This discussion will only get interesting again after CES.
    Last edited by tholap; 10/31/2010 at 07:28 AM.
    Pre -> Pre3 & TP32 -> Nexus 5
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by DumbPreCommenter View Post
    Quite frankly, with the capabilities of the Palm Pre 2 running HP webOS 2.0 that has already been demonstrated, the Palm Pre 2 is going to be very competitive with the other high-end devices on Verizon such as the Droid/Fascinate/BB versions as long as it is released before december.



    The only true deficiency that I view the Palm Pre 2 + webOS 2.0 as having is lack of high-profile apps, which is really a double pronged users and apps issue. However, the deficiency is something I think a strong marketing campaign and some strategic dev partnerships (some of which we are seeing with Quick Office) can alleviate.

    Color me optimistic, but I think Palm Pre 2 has a fighting chance of a much stronger showing on Verizon this time around.

    At the very least, it should be tremendously appealing to "enterprise consumers" that likely favor high-productivity/mobility/enterprise-class-security to pocket-bulging-screen-sizes/HD-video-capture/TV-output.
    The Pre 2 has no chance of taking marke share from the DRIOD X or any large screen device. The people with those LIKE large screens. My dad likes big screens because he can see it a lot better. I do agree the Pre 2 has a better chance at selling more. A lot of people will like the form factor. But not everyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by tholap View Post
    This discussion is silly insofar as it focuses on facts that will be changed in a few months (or even weeks).

    Obviously the Pre 2 is just the fixed Pre. It's form factor will not satisfy nearly everybody and it certainly can't cover the market. I'm sure H/Palm knows that too.
    I'm sure Palm would have loved to launch a range of devices last summer and I assume that the Pre 2 was originally planned for a June/July release (roughly 1 year after Sprint launch of the Pre.)

    But Palm was in real danger of running out money before they could get to a sustainable market share. That's why they made that deal with HP. They couldn't launch a new phone then for financial and strategic reasons.

    Designing, developing, producing and certifying phones takes time. That can't be done properly in a couple of months - even without taking carrier negotiations in account.

    So at this point HPalm simply has a choice of either launching the device that was already in the pipeline or not launching anything.

    No doubt a range of devices is under heavy development (some of them probably even still based on Palm designs they simply couldn't execute on). We'll probably see most of them announced at CES.

    Meanwhile it makes no sense to keep selling the Pre when yo have the Pre 2 ready to launch. Why wouldn't they want to keep in business until the 2011 stuff can be launched? There's xmas business coming and these are fine sellable phones to the many that like the form factor and couldn't care less about front facing cameras.

    Most of us are here because we think that webos is the leading platform today - and the Pre 2 looks like it might at last be the solid hardware to go with that.

    HPalm had to launch something to keep going.

    Is the the Pre 2 enough to compete in 2011? Of course not. Not by itself. But I bet it will still sell besides the 3.5 slider and the 3.8 slab and/or whatever else HPalm will launch in the next couple of quarters.

    Why don't they announce more? For the same reason all the others also hold back: To have WOW announcements at CES instead of trickling out news that gets swamped in the daily news barrage. But also because they no doubt have such agreements with carriers. Announcing stuff that arrives in 2-3 months can hurt business of todays partners.
    You do a leak here and there to keep rumors around that keeps the buzz going.

    The Pre 2 is way better than nothing, which at this point in time obviously was the only alternative. Getting webos going with a fixed Pre and version 2 into the xmas season makes sense. Why would they want to stay with the return rates of the original Pre if they have this available? Some percentage of customers doesn't care about front facing cameras and compass. They love the compactness of the Pre form factor and the screen is big enough for the occasional browsing session and game.

    Many others will want more and that's fine and quite natural. It's just that they have to wait a bit more so those new models can get out of the pipleline (design, development, certification, etc...).

    If you can't wait for that and can live with IOS, Android, BB, M or WP7 - that's OK. There's plenty of competition and that's good for all of us (except for any wannabe monopolist manufacturers ;-) ).

    I get why some people like the idea of a front facing camera for video telephony. Especially nice for parents away from their kids.
    I get why some people love bigger-is-better screens - especially when you surf and watch video a lot.

    But neither is of universal interest. Video telephony has been available in Europe for at least half a decade. Carriers have tried to push it to grow demand for the 3G networks they built. Yet customers have mostly ignored that feature. In fact texting has grown faster than even voice-only telephony.

    Big screens come at a price. Not only does it increase costs (and therefore prices), even more importantly it adds weight, size and power demands - all clearly drawbacks.
    If you wear your phone on your belt or in a bag - than that might be acceptable. For those of us who like to slip it into a regular jeans pocket size is an issue and 4" screens way too big.
    Screen resolution is mostly a matter of costs and a higher resolution is almost always better. At the least your text gets to be sharper - but this suffers from diminishing returns and the sharpness of the Pre screen is already very good.

    In short all the wishful thinking about what HPalm should have release ignore the fact that Palm first didn't have the resources and then HPalm didn't have the time yet.
    A quarter might seem like ages in this age and when you're waiting for the next great geekphone. But it's not that much time when you're busy reorganizing a company, deal with CEO change, have to research market impact of WP7, consider IPhone evolution, have plans for a tablet at the same time and simply have to go through a lengthy process of testing ideals and materials, consider designs, develop that into a prototype, test and refine, certify, negotiate with carriers, consider their demands and restrictions and prepare appropriate marketing campaigns.

    Sure - I would like the platform I invested in to grow faster. But realistically, given what was there - it couldn't. Meanwhile my Preware-enhanced OC Palm (still my first BTW, no oreo, no cracks) does OK for now and I get to enjoy todays best (IMHO) mobile OS.
    The UI is the best available, speed is fine, battery life borderline but Touchstone makes it bearable (and Touchstone charging still beats everything out there). There's more high quality games available already than I have time to play with and I use my laptop for editing documents.

    This discussion will only get interesting again after CES.
    This is what I have been trying to say. We should wait to CES to count HP out of the game or in the game. Good job man!
  17. #37  
    There's a good chance that webOS might not be better than any of the other devices at multi tasking in actual fact, but it hasn't been demonstrated.

    I also doubt that anybody not actively survey a large cross section of mobile consumers know what the market (a major proportion) thinks or that they know about differences in multitasking capabilities.

    Consumers are by nature very impressionable, which is why companies still pay for TV ad slots.

    The idea has always been, tell them convincingly and most will believe. The "convincingly" part hasn't been done right yet. Just see how WP7 will likely succeed with their $1billion marketing push.

    In any case, I think the die harders here predicting Pre-doom are just a very vocal disgruntled minority. Btw, I am a die harder and, like some others here, favor Pre 2's chance of success and see the Pre 2's specs as typical mobile industry upgrades to a product family line.

    Therefore any view that there is unanimous discontent by die harders or that some consumer groups are not reachable is not accurate.
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by cobrakon View Post
    No, it was because the reps wouldn't sell them one

    http://forums.precentral.net/palm-pr...xperience.html

    Huh....the Samsung Fascinate doesn't seem to have the same problem, and it's not "Droid" either. In fact, they've already ordered a complimentary Galaxy S phone, The Continuum.

    But why let the flimsiness of anecdotal evidence stand in the way of yet another excuse? In case you hadn't noticed, the Pre and Pre Plus didn't sell particularly great on ANY carrier.
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikah912 View Post
    Huh....the Samsung Fascinate doesn't seem to have the same problem, and it's not "Droid" either. In fact, they've already ordered a complimentary Galaxy S phone, The Continuum.

    But why let the flimsiness of anecdotal evidence stand in the way of yet another excuse? In case you hadn't noticed, the Pre and Pre Plus didn't sell particularly great on ANY carrier.
    Yeah, VZ isn's pushing Droid X over Fascinate. Uh-huh...

    http://tinyurl.com/2wtw8wu

    And remember 4.9% of the market (admittedly small, for now) is using a webOS device. Those 2.6mil phones didn't just materialize.

    Oh and the Pre had Sprints launch sales record at the time...
  20. #40  
    the epic is a damn nice phone, blows the evo and the pre2 away in every aspect. if there was more active development for it id buy one right now.
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